Infrastructure Problems...

[Brock Samson]

 Ten years ago or so when they were charting the big stories of the next decade one that rose towards the top of the list were deteriorating infrastructure problems... bridges were listed as a major source of trouble and it looks like the predictions are coming true,..

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2009/10/28/MNO81ABJTF.DTL
(10-27) 21:12 PDT SAN FRANCISCO -- "Three pieces of an emergency repair to the Bay Bridge's cantilever section made over Labor Day weekend snapped and crashed onto the upper deck of the span late Tuesday afternoon, striking three vehicles and forcing the indefinite closure of the region's busiest bridge".

  and...


http://www.vermontbiz.com/news/october/champlain-bridge-closure-declared-transportation-emergency-area-businesses-agree

"...found serious and advancing spalling. Cracks that test cores had shown to go five inches deep earlier in the year now went in 18 inches in at least two of the mid-lake concrete supports. The clincher, literally, was that the joints in the metal trusses meant to give the structure flexibility at times of high wind and water had locked up, meaning stresses were being transferred high and wide, threatening a catastrophic failure like that of the interstate bridge that linked Minneapolis and St Paul in Minnesota".

 Hi-Tech infrastructure problems were the other part of potential trouble BTW. Fiber optic lines degrading and being severed, whether by accident or sabotage or to simply steal the materials.
I seem to remember Terrorism being high on the list as well, and that was pre-911 too, the first warning shot in that salvo were the Taliban blowing up the ancient sculptures in the dessert...

Anyway these bridge closures are on the top of the news just now because of the vast number of people affected, in the millions I'm sure, But I'm wondering if you know of any other infrastructure failures that might now (yet) be grabbing headlines...  

[Smokey Bear]

I used to work for a water utility. The annual water main replacement rate calculated to a 500 year+ cycle on distribution system that was supposed to last only 50-100 years.... most of it already being 50-100 years old. The scary part is nearly every utility in the country is run this way.

[The70RT]

Pretty scary. I remember a bridge here collapsed back in the 60's and some people were killed. We have lots of old dams around here along with our 50 year old levee. We will probably start to here more and more stories as they age.

[speedfreak68]

there's an old bridge outside of wilson that has metal supports and back in the early 90's there was a big log jam that had built up below it and then someone got the bright idea to light it on fire...  and now if you go on the bridge on foot you can make the whole thing shake... thats bad news...

[sunfire69]

This is where the current adminstration is falling very,very short.....instead of stimuls  money being handed out for every pet project on the planet They should employ an Eisenhower type program similar to the interstate highway program...and federally fund infrastructure projects....it will put a hugh number of prople back to work in good paying trades.....it wil cause buying in everything from raw materials...equipment...you name it the impact would be very broad based......it worked with the TVA and Hoover dam in the 30s, the Interstate Highway system in the 50s....put people back to work and they will spend money.....pay taxes.....and we get an ageing infrastucture fixed....I can't believe they don't see the oppertunity....

[elacruze]

Here's an idea-

Let the $#!^ fall down and wash away.

Then let private concerns rebuild it, and charge tolls. That way, I won't be paying for the Golden Gate bridge with my Florida taxes, the people who use it will pay for it. If it's not worth it to them, let them drive around.

The 'New Deal' and all such 'public works' programs spend enormous amounts of money, and employ people (temporarily) But don't forget who's paying for it-you and your taxes. I for one am very tired of hearing 999 variations on how 'The Government' could solve the problem, without anyone espousing those variations mentioning where the money will come from. There is no 'Government' folks, it's us and those we vote for. That is, if you bother to vote. Otherwise it's who I vote for.

Government has never done a better job, nor been as efficient as private industry for anything except what the Constitution originally intended-and that pretty much ends with the Police and Military.

Edit; To answer Brock's original question, the City of Detroit's water system is so leaky they estimate that it loses nearly 40% of it's capacity. They tried to pass this expense on to the suburbs, who revolted of course...and answered with a plan to build a new water treatment plant farther north out of the City.
I'm invoking my right to bow out of a political thread...The end.

[PocketThunder]

elacruze you are not alone my friend.   

[MoparSam]

This is where the current adminstration is falling very,very short.....instead of stimuls  money being handed out for every pet project on the planet They should employ an Eisenhower type program similar to the interstate highway program...and federally fund infrastructure projects....it will put a hugh number of prople back to work in good paying trades.....it wil cause buying in everything from raw materials...equipment...you name it the impact would be very broad based......it worked with the TVA and Hoover dam in the 30s, the Interstate Highway system in the 50s....put people back to work and they will spend money.....pay taxes.....and we get an ageing infrastucture fixed....I can't believe they don't see the oppertunity....

AMEN!! They can't see cause they've got blinders on and they are called large stacks of money for them to pocket!

Here's an idea-

Let the $#!^ fall down and wash away.

Then let private concerns rebuild it, and charge tolls. That way, I won't be paying for the Golden Gate bridge with my Florida taxes, the people who use it will pay for it. If it's not worth it to them, let them drive around.

The 'New Deal' and all such 'public works' programs spend enormous amounts of money, and employ people (temporarily) But don't forget who's paying for it-you and your taxes. I for one am very tired of hearing 999 variations on how 'The Government' could solve the problem, without anyone espousing those variations mentioning where the money will come from. There is no 'Government' folks, it's us and those we vote for. That is, if you bother to vote. Otherwise it's who I vote for.

Government has never done a better job, nor been as efficient as private industry for anything except what the Constitution originally intended-and that pretty much ends with the Police and Military.

Edit; To answer Brock's original question, the City of Detroit's water system is so leaky they estimate that it loses nearly 40% of it's capacity. They tried to pass this expense on to the suburbs, who revolted of course...and answered with a plan to build a new water treatment plant farther north out of the City.
I'm invoking my right to bow out of a political thread...The end.

AMEN!! I.. can't.. won't... I.... just AMEN!!

[69DodgeCharger]

Here's an idea-

Let the $#!^ fall down and wash away.

Then let private concerns rebuild it, and charge tolls. That way, I won't be paying for the Golden Gate bridge with my Florida taxes, the people who use it will pay for it. If it's not worth it to them, let them drive around.

The 'New Deal' and all such 'public works' programs spend enormous amounts of money, and employ people (temporarily) But don't forget who's paying for it-you and your taxes. I for one am very tired of hearing 999 variations on how 'The Government' could solve the problem, without anyone espousing those variations mentioning where the money will come from. There is no 'Government' folks, it's us and those we vote for. That is, if you bother to vote. Otherwise it's who I vote for.

Government has never done a better job, nor been as efficient as private industry for anything except what the Constitution originally intended-and that pretty much ends with the Police and Military.

Edit; To answer Brock's original question, the City of Detroit's water system is so leaky they estimate that it loses nearly 40% of it's capacity. They tried to pass this expense on to the suburbs, who revolted of course...and answered with a plan to build a new water treatment plant farther north out of the City.
I'm invoking my right to bow out of a political thread...The end.

To support anything the Govt. does is about the same as chewing up a broken beer glass to me but here's a thought. The Govt/Big Banks/Big Business are going to steal your money anyways. Why not consider something like these infrastructure projects mentioned? It would put people back to work, although I concede only for a decade at best. Plus the people would be getting some of their money back and of course spend it, growing the economy and adding tax revenue back into the "system". As if the Govt/Banks didn't steal enough of it already. I'd be more inclined to have my tax money go to something like that other than paying for Manuel and his "extended family" to enjoy the benefits of social welfare programs they haven't put one dime into. Or for some financial institutions that bet the farm and lost, with our money to be bailed out again. Nobody wants their taxes paying for something that has nothing to do with them. But they are already doing it every day.

[Brock Samson]

 I like and appreciate all the viewpoints you've brought to the thread - but also see how it's inflamed political passions, which really wasn't my original intent,.. yet it seems alot of folks musings end up there no matter what the topic is anyhow..  Signs of great dissatifaction no doubt, and understood.
I was thinking that the Golden Gate Bridge (one of the three ways into san francsico has major structural difficulties now too (at least it's approch Doyle Drive) and even a minor quake would effectivly isolate my city from the north and east bay and so is, of concern to me personally,. nothing Govt. related, unless you want to go that way assigning blame and responsibility.
I was just thinking that overall, the chickens are comming home to roost,.. Researching possible employment possibilities has me thinking along these lines and identifying employment ideas...
Sorry to upset those of you who felt the need to retire from the Convo... 

[Todd Wilson]

Theres plenty of smaller bridges here in Kansas with problems from age. The say they are in bad need of repair yet they can still go another 15 years.



Todd

[Todd Wilson]

This is where the current adminstration is falling very,very short.....instead of stimuls  money being handed out for every pet project on the planet They should employ an Eisenhower type program similar to the interstate highway program...and federally fund infrastructure projects....it will put a hugh number of prople back to work in good paying trades.....it wil cause buying in everything from raw materials...equipment...you name it the impact would be very broad based......it worked with the TVA and Hoover dam in the 30s, the Interstate Highway system in the 50s....put people back to work and they will spend money.....pay taxes.....and we get an ageing infrastucture fixed....I can't believe they don't see the oppertunity....

I agree!!!!   But we dont want people to work and have jobs. We want people to rely on the government and Yobama. We have proved this with the losers in Detroit getting money handouts a few weeks back and they all say Yobama was the greatest and they couldnt figure out how he got the money to give to them! They could have went to work and built a bridge and earned it!


Todd

[Mike DC]

Here's an idea-

Let the $#!^ fall down and wash away.

Then let private concerns rebuild it, and charge tolls. That way, I won't be paying for the Golden Gate bridge with my Florida taxes, the people who use it will pay for it. If it's not worth it to them, let them drive around.

Here's another idea-

Let New Orleans fall down and wash away.  And let the same thing happen to Florida if there's a huge Hurricane or something.  I don't like paying for coastal problems in the Midwest.  


------------------------------------------


Or we could recognize that no place is without problems, and part of being a nation instead of 50 individual states is pooling some of the costs for the greater good.

Nobody likes paying insurance premiums when they're healthy.  But that kind of thinking is also counter to the whole point of insurance.  Do we wanna pool our risks or don't we?




Now, if you wanna argue that New Orleans or SanFran should be paying higher "insurance premiums" for their bridges and levees, then I might agree. . . but then SanFran or NewOrleans would start arguing what their state does to help my state . . .

. . . and pretty soon the whole country is in a great, big, merry, multi-hundred-billion-dollar pissing match about which state is more valuable than another.  I don't think this kind of internal strife would do us much good as a nation.  

[Neal_J]

Many infrastructure projects constructed in either the 1930's (e.g., the Bay Bridge) or the 1950 have reached or exceeded their useful lives.  The increase in recent infrastructure failures attests to this.  However, there really isn't a lot of money (government or commercial) in the tills to rebuild these projects completely.  Consider, for example, replacement of part of the Bay Bridge - which will envelop $$$billions and 25 years once completed.  

This ain't political, it's just reality: public infrastructure is crumbling now and stop-gap repairs will continue & things continue to crumble.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/29/bridge.lessons.learned/index.html

[John_Kunkel]

This is where the current adminstration is falling very,very short.....instead of stimuls  money being handed out for every pet project on the planet They should employ an Eisenhower type program similar to the interstate highway program

Why blame the current administration? Previous administrations had the same opportunity (and knew about the problem) but chose to spend the money on unwinnable wars instead.

[The70RT]

This is where the current adminstration is falling very,very short.....instead of stimuls  money being handed out for every pet project on the planet They should employ an Eisenhower type program similar to the interstate highway program

Why blame the current administration? Previous administrations had the same opportunity (and knew about the problem) but chose to spend the money on unwinnable wars instead.

yep....... .........

[Brock Samson]

lol...

I guess we all need to get our diggs in,..  
 
still some good points, some of which i agree with, some of which I hadn't concidered before...
I do belive that it's posible to raise points which may inform rather then inflame.

I like that we can debate some  issues, and that's fine, but this insn't intended to change anyones' political dogma or party affiliation because I am actually interested in what
infrastructure"issues you are faceing or maybe relevant to your area...

Like when i posted a link to the actual list of Cash for Clunkers list and some folks used that as a soap box, probably without ever actually looking at the link... I'm just saying...   I hope the members who do decide to post on here have (and show) some discresion.

Kind of like how the 30 Point Buck/Salmon discussion went last Sept. - I learned alot from that and it wasn't particularly political.
Rather silly at times perhaps but very interesting...

[PocketThunder]

lol... I like that we can debate some  issues, and that's fine, but this insn't intended to change anyones' political dogma or party affiliation because I am actually interested in what
infrastructure"issues you are faceing or maybe relevant to your area...

Relevant to my area?  Ok, i'll go first, we had this little mishap recently http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge

[squeakfinder]

lol... I like that we can debate some  issues, and that's fine, but this insn't intended to change anyones' political dogma or party affiliation because I am actually interested in what
infrastructure"issues you are faceing or maybe relevant to your area...

Relevant to my area?  Ok, i'll go first, we had this little mishap recently http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge

You beat me to it.

Hears the video of the bridge collapsing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/35wBridgecollapse.gif

[Smokey Bear]

This is a political issue in the sense that that politicians and political processes don't allow us, as a nation to spend wisely. Nobody is going to get reelected for fixing up a bunch of old worn out stuff. The glory and votes are in building something else new.   

[Brock Samson]

thanks good stuff! 

[elacruze]

OK I'm  back in, but not in the political side.

First, let me say that I live in a Hurricane zone, 1/2 mile from the Atlantic Ocean. My house was built in 1958, and has withstood 5 or 6 major hurricanes, three of them in two years. During Hurricane Wilma, under my ownership, the house and property sustained ZERO (0) $ Damage. Nada. Nunca. Know why? Because I bought a house that is 57 feet above sea level, and because I spent $5k on hurricane shutters up to Miami-Dade hurricane resistance code. Not because I had to, but because I don't want my house to blow up in hopes that I'll get lucky or even make money on the insurance claim.
I do have a reputation among those who know me for being somewhat discompassionate. What I do believe, is that the U.S. was founded on the principle that people should be fundamentally self-sustaining, self-aware, accountable to their decisions and left fairly well alone by the government. That said, I believe that if you washed away in New Orleans, you shouldn't have been there to begin with. (don't regale me with 'no resources to leave on', I don't care) If you lost your home in the Mississippi river flood in the Clinton years, Tough luck. If a tornado blew away your farm in Oklahoma, sorry is the best I can do. If your estate burned in the Santa Ana winds or fell into the San Andreas fault, oh well. I knew when I bought my house that Florida has hurricanes. New Orleans, Missouri, California, Texas...everybody acknowledges the geological and meteorological history in their area, but nobody wants to accept responsibility for living there when something bad happens.
I made my choice knowingly and willingly and I expect everyone else to do the same, and not rob me at gunpoint to pay for their planning failure. Those Bars in New Orleans weren't paying me a dividend on their profits before the flood, why should I have a stake in the rebuilding?

Now as far as spending the tax money on labor; Forget it. Don't you think it's a better idea to leave more cash in the pockets of the taxpayer than to have a couple hundred corrupt elected officials spend it for them, where it may not be in their best interest? I don't like to be mugged, nor pay 'protection'. Why would I enjoy giving 30% of my money to the 'government' just because it's 'legal'? to me taxes are no different than giving it up to a standover man.

Now, on to something relevant to the original post;
Infrastructure. What's to do? We really can't leave it to fall down and wash away-at least not the clean water and sanitation services. Bridges? Well, drive around. If your local economy depends on it, have the local economy maintain and replace them as necessary. I'm specifically including bridges on the Interstate highway system, because interstate commerce is better served by rail than by over the road trucking. Fix the rail bridges with Federal revenues, and let the trucking industry buy the road bridges. Or the local bridge-builder, if he thinks he can make a profit on tolls. If he charges too much, there will be another bridge up the river a bit who charges less. Then more smaller local communities will see more traffic and revenue as a result, also.
Water. I think that's where the biggest problem is. Detroit is probably the prime example. When I was a kid in the '60s Detroit was known world-wide for having the cleanest most modern water system. Even then, the outlying pipes were 50 years old...Where will the money come from to fix them? Nobody taking water from those pipes actually has enough money to fix them, and never will.

Oh, here's a thought...Stop giving money to Israel and Africa and South America and spend it at home. That would be in my opinion the most cost-effective way to begin the resurrection of U.S. infrastructure.

One last point FWIW. I like to think I speak with some knowledge; I grew up around Detroit, we owned property and were well-screwed by the 'government' on a number of occasions...I ran for State Representative (and was unsuccessful) and met a great number of elected officials and their unelected handlers and moneymen. The corruption whether conscious or unconscious would make your head spin. Hollywood cannot do it justice. Do yourselves a favor, attend your next School Board meeting, and your next Township Board meeting or whatever the equivalent is in your area. If you've never done this, you're in for a shock. Better yet, take the neighborhood loudmouth along and bring popcorn.  It's a show you'll never forget.

Out.

[Mike DC]

I agree with a lot of that.  



But the problem with wanting to remain "independent" is that I don't think anybody ever really is independent.  It's all in shades of degree at most.


So your house didn't get washed away or damaged.  That's grea.  And it sounds like you rightfully should be proud of the work you did to preserve it.  But what about the local property values?  Isn't it worth something not to end up with a lone surviving house among a whole city that is mostly destroyed?    And what about your utilities?  How much would your bills & services get hurt if you became the lone resident left in the area?  What about your employment, which is probably in the area too? (Your boss might also have saved his house & business, but he's still gonna close up shop if the rest of his whole customer base has been destroyed.)



Look at school system taxes.  Some people always say, "I shouldn't have to pay for the schools if I don't have kids in them!"  But people would be a lot less thrilled about it if they lost the property values & neighborhood stability that comes with good public schools.  



The huge corporations often like to argue that they're being unfairly taxed by the people in order to build their society, for example.  (Although I agree that small businesses in the USA are overtaxed these days.)  But the huge corps tend to conveniently overlook the fact that the society is stable enough for them to DO business, and that's not free.  Why don't these corps pick up and move to some place like Somolia where they won't be taxed like here?  The answer is because that place is lawless, has no decent utility infrastructure, no decent educated workforce, no decent road system, no military protection from foreign invaders . . .  this hypothetical complaining corporation would be spending a lot more than their American tax bill if they tried to tame Somolia enough to make it work for them instead.  The huge corps will complain about the "unfair" taxes but they sure don't mind the indirect benefits of it.  Of couse comparing the USA vs Somolia is an extreme example but you get the idea.  

[tricky lugnuts]

Marietta, Ohio was founded in 1788 on the Ohio River and has heavily flooded in the past and will flood again in the future. Such flooding is heavily subsidized by the National Flood Insurance Program, a federal program that pays out more than it takes in premiums. (Probably like the new public health insurance option will after a couple election cycles.) The city's streets are crumbling, the "historic" buildings are slowly crumbling and falling in on themselves due to a lack of investment, the water lines are leaky and always breaking, the same for the sewer lines.

The city government is essentially broke after paying salaries and benefits like 100% premium paid health insurance, insurance that more than a quarter of the local citizens do not have. The surrounding county has bad roads, no sewer service, no water service, no broadband Internet, horrible environmental problems. The story is the same around Ohio and no doubt many other states.

Marietta (or the State of Ohio) is either going to have to start raising taxes or bonding things and run up massive amounts of debt to fix these things or watch them crumble, because it doesn't have the tax base or revenue coming in at present to fix enormously expensive infrastructure.

If anyone is counting on the federal government to fix/solve infrastructure issues, with its $12 trillion in national debt that grows every year, $1.5 trillion deficit this year, and close to $75 trillion in unfunded promises for the Medicare and Social Security programs over the next 75 years, I'd say they're crazy, absolutely out of their mind.

There's no doubt in my mind that America is crumbling in many places at once. The developing world is growing, the developed world is falling apart. I'm only 30 and I'm downright terrified to think of what this place will be like in another 30 years. I'm convinced we're a third world country - we just don't know it yet. Maybe that's because all of our public schools are so bad...

[73chgrSE]

Wow. That pretty much says it all. Looking back, how did we ever think we could maintain all this growth and development?