full frame b bodies?

[motorcitydak]

just found this think on the bay. Looks pretty cool just am not sure how it integrates into the unibody http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Charger-1968-1970-B-Body-Aftermarket-Replacement-Full-Frame_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3ef96c9b55QQitemZ270472616789QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks

[ipstrategies]

I met a metal fabricator a few weeks ago (I am thinking of having him doe the metal work on my car), he does some really nice work. He just finished a 71 RR Clone and was telling me the parts car  frame rails were shot so he is going to use a Lincoln Town Car Frame (From the 90s do not remember all details) and use that to make his hybrid. he showed me pics of a 74 Duster he added Rack and Pinion to with a 440. I think he could do it just not sure why other then because he can I guess.

[motorcitydak]

but this kit just seems like acomplete custom weld in setup that gives you R&P steering, coilovers, a rear 4 link, etc, I just dunno if it has been tested properly or if its worth it

[Troy]

Not bad. Prices for the Ford and Chevy versions are around $3500 (front and rear suspensions and brakes are included). The frame sits inside the original rails and it doesn't look like there's too much hacking involved to make it fit. Some people may balk at the Ford 9" rear and Mustang II front suspension but it sounds like custom orders are not out of the question. I think it would be an economical way to upgrade suspension/handling (and maybe even an Air Ride) and stiffen up the car significantly (even better for one that has/had rusted rails or collision damage). I don't think you could get all that much cheaper if you had to pay someone to custom fab it - these guys appear to reuse parts/assemblies whenever possible to keep the costs reasonable.

Troy

[bull]

Chris posted the same thing a while back and it wasn't too well received around here: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,55457.0.html

[speedfreak68]

Ok... I feel as though I need to come clean... I'm using one of these kits in building my charger... My car was completely shot and I got screwed because I took someone's word for the condition it was in... I'm extending the frame the full length of the car to replace the rails that were shot. Basicly I'm building a car around the frame. So far everything has been good, quality parts with this kit.
Now that I got that off my chest I feel better now. 
Martin

[Mike DC]

                    
What about the torsional stiffness of the frame?  That's the area where it's difficult for an aftermarket full frame to even match the factory unibody, let alone improve upon it.  

This frame looks good in some ways but I am not optimistic about the stiffness of it.  Stiffness is basically just a function of the dimensions of the frame.  A physically larger framework (factory unibody) is gonna outdo any amount of thicker beams on this deal.




I'm not saying it's worthless junk.  But I'm saying there is no point in piling on R/P steering & Corvette control arms if you're gonna end up with an even floppier chassis than the factory suspension was built on.

[elacruze]

Ok... I feel as though I need to come clean... I'm using one of these kits in building my charger... My car was completely shot and I got screwed because I took someone's word for the condition it was in... I'm extending the frame the full length of the car to replace the rails that were shot. Basicly I'm building a car around the frame. So far everything has been good, quality parts with this kit.
Now that I got that off my chest I feel better now.  
Martin

Well as long as you've fallen down the well, do report up periodically, and send piccys too.

Wouldn't $3500 have bought some sheetmetal, rails, spot weld drill and a welder?  

AWWK!! $13,600? I think I'd do this first...http://www.uscartool.com/bodyinwhite/index.html

I admit to being peculiar, but not snobby. I had a hard time parting with my stock Qpanels for AMD, and wouldn't even consider an AlterKtion.  

[motorcitydak]

as far as the stiffness goes, I agree that a chassis has to be strong, but remember that this one only goes in to further fortify an already decent setup. This can only improve the rigidity of the b body platform which with some help from XV can be very good so I think the addition of this frame would put a 40 year old muscle car into the ranks of competing with my brothers '05 ACR edition SRT-4. The only thing I am worried about is just how much weight this setup adds to the vehicle. I do however like the fact that the rear is already 4 linked with a coilover setup inplace and holding onto a braced ford 9 inch rear axle. It has splined sway bars front and rear, big brakes, R&P steering, coilover front end and double a arm front suspension. Of course giving you the ablilty to run air ride stuff. Also I think that since the b body platform essentially rides on this new frame that the controversy over the front end not being designed to support the car thru a pair of coilovers goes out the window since the entire car is now reinforced front to rear.

[Troy]

This thing is either welded or solid mounted to the stock frame right? I'd likely pass if it were like a truck frame with rubber mounts holding it together. People seem to have no problem with bolt-in frame connectors though. It's cross braced and has room to route the exhaust through the frame - which was my first concern when seeing the rails inside the factory rails. With the unibody intact I don't see how it wouldn't be as stiff - if not much stiffer. The suspension only works as well as whatever it's connected to so if this frame has sufficient stiffness then it really doesn't matter how tight the rest is. I think I'd weld it all together with a cage...

If you wanted to use stock suspension/steering components then there's not really a reason to go this route but I think this approach is definitely cheaper than fabricating all that or buying a front end from Magnum Force or Alterkation (plus a rear suspension and big brake kit) or buying the complete setup from XV.

Troy

[Mike DC]

 
The pics in the Ebay ad only show the stock rear subframe rails remaining.  The original front subframe rails, K-frame, and T-bar crossmember appear to be all gone. 

[Troy]

 
The pics in the Ebay ad only show the stock rear subframe rails remaining.  The original front subframe rails, K-frame, and T-bar crossmember appear to be all gone. 

There aren't any really good pictures of the front but I see what you're talking about now. How do the inner fenders and rad support connect then? I looked on their site but all the pictures are of other makes. The one Mustang is completely fabricated so no help there.

Troy

[speedfreak68]

 
The pics in the Ebay ad only show the stock rear subframe rails remaining.  The original front subframe rails, K-frame, and T-bar crossmember appear to be all gone.  

There aren't any really good pictures of the front but I see what you're talking about now. How do the inner fenders and rad support connect then? I looked on their site but all the pictures are of other makes. The one Mustang is completely fabricated so no help there.

Troy

yes the whole front subframe gets cut out and the front of the frame bolts to where the bumper bolts. I'm going home tomorrow so I can post up some pics of that. I also plan on making new inner fender wells because you have to cut the originals out when you install the frame. the t bar crossmember is supposto be modified to bolt to the frame but since mine is gone I've made a new x member.

[Mike DC]

  
I'm not categorically against fabbing a whole new frame for a Charger.  Not at all.  


But I just don't think this is a very good way to do it.  

Scrapping the entire front half of the factory chassis, and then compromising the frame to save the rear subframes and middle floors?  Sounds like the worst of several worlds.  You wouldn't get the benefits of redoing the whole thing from scratch, but you also wouldn't get the benefits of preserving the original chassis either.  And if you're gonna pick one end of the original unibody to save, why the rear end?  It's the rear that's fairly simple and always rusted to shit.  It's the front that is usually more solid and also accounts for more of the car's mechanicals.    

-------------------------------------


IMHO the 2x4 frame replacement that is sold by Art Morrison (weld-in, fab all new floors) would be a better setup than this one.  The original car is gone either way; at least with that one you've gotten more of the benefits of an all-new frame from scratch.  

[Troy]

Man, I thought the ad said something like "minor cutting and welding". Although I'm not a metal man or body guy, removing the front frame rails and cross members and fabricating parts of the inner fender seems like a big undertaking (since many people get squeamish when talking about replacing a dog house I can't be the only one). The front rails are usually good on these cars - it's the back that rusts completely away but you need all that in good shape for this piece to work.

I was going to say that Art Morrison sells channel and bends to fabricate your own. I'd think a "back half" type kit with the rails going all the way up to the torsion bar cross member would be really cool - although a good set of frame connectors would get you about the same thing without the cool suspension.

Troy

[Blown70]

I was going to say that Art Morrison sells channel and bends to fabricate your own. I'd think a "back half" type kit with the rails going all the way up to the torsion bar cross member would be really cool - although a good set of frame connectors would get you about the same thing without the cool suspension.

I plan to use some type of Morrison front sus. on my 70 if I keep the car, but in a few years not right away, all the, inner fenders/suspension is gone, and that tube will only last so long pounding it on the street. before it cracks.........They have some neet stuff I will say....

Back to this project, I cannot wait to see it move along....

[Mike DC]

  
This is the Art Morrison thing I was talking about.  They make these to order, altering dimensions for the car being built.  I'm not sure of the specifics but I think they're friendly to Corvette front A-arms and 4-link rearends.  


It's not preserving any of the original floors or subframe structure, but I think the final result would be better with this deal.  




 

[Blown70]

 
This is the Art Morrison thing I was talking about.  They make these to order, altering dimensions for the car being built.  I'm not sure of the specifics but I think they're friendly to Corvette front A-arms and 4-link rearends.  


It's not preserving any of the original floors or subframe structure, but I think the final result would be better with this deal.  




 

  YES SIR......

[motorcitydak]

Well the auction ended at only 1000 bucks. I asked what their reserve is and they just said again that a roller starts at 13,600. That is just nuts I think. I would spent 3-4,000 on it if I went that way, but no way would I drop 13 grand. I also think that the art morrison looks like a ton of added and unnecessary weight. I have decided to just go with the XV motorsport b body stiffener set and be done with it. I will also be adding torque boxes tho. All that together should be a very stable platform for my car to sit on

[Blown70]

Well the auction ended at only 1000 bucks. I asked what their reserve is and they just said again that a roller starts at 13,600. That is just nuts I think. I would spent 3-4,000 on it if I went that way, but no way would I drop 13 grand. I also think that the art morrison looks like a ton of added and unnecessary weight. I have decided to just go with the XV motorsport b body stiffener set and be done with it. I will also be adding torque boxes tho. All that together should be a very stable platform for my car to sit on

$13,600?  For serious...