the beating death of the student in chicago

[Ponch ®]

1) The fact that the media uses small town crime as a means to increase ratings due to their rarity and unexpectedness ( you have to admit, they happen hardly ever )

OR

2) The fact that the media does not use big city atrocities because the consistency of such crime no longer shocks the consumers

I did admit that those things happen rarely in small towns. Like I said, it's a matter of numbers. if you were to put the statistics of a bunch of small towns together so that the combined populations were the same as that of a big city, the statistics wouldn't be all that different. So maybe your town hasn't had any murders, but maybe the smilarly sized one a few miles down the road has had a few.

That beating in Chicago is big news because it's also a rare occurrence. What you see and hear about big cities is also blown out of proportion. In your first post you implied that if you grow up in a city, you're a mindless lemming with no volition of your own and will automatically turn out to be a lowlife because "monkey see, monkey do".
Like it's been said already (and not just by me)...there are sociopaths everywhere.

[Silver R/T]

It starts with the parents, that is the problem. Until the parents take responsibility and teach their kids right from wrong and responsibility, everything that happens in the inner city will continue to happen like a bad re-run. Kids  mimic what they see adults do. What they grow up seeing in these big cities like Chicago, Los Angeles etc. is all negative.

U.S. laws puts handcuffs on parents. You can't whip a kid anymore when they screw up big time. America needs to go back to good ol' times when kids knew how to respect elderly.

[TruckDriver]

It starts with the parents, that is the problem. Until the parents take responsibility and teach their kids right from wrong and responsibility, everything that happens in the inner city will continue to happen like a bad re-run. Kids  mimic what they see adults do. What they grow up seeing in these big cities like Chicago, Los Angeles etc. is all negative.

U.S. laws puts handcuffs on parents. You can't whip a kid anymore when they screw up big time. America needs to go back to good ol' times when kids knew how to respect elderly.

I was just going to say the same thing. Parenting needs to be givin back to the parents. Not the government taking it away from them by dishing out fear of taking the kids away if they give there kids a spanking for doing wrong.

[RD]

In your first post you implied that if you grow up in a city, you're a mindless lemming with no volition of your own and will automatically turn out to be a lowlife because "monkey see, monkey do".

Um.. I do not believe I made that implication.  To summarize my initial post, I stated that such problems in inner cities are not the same as rural communities and the fact that media and governmental agencies have attempted to make them congruent shows that such assumptions are distinctly incorrect and purely drama based attention seeking behavior.  I then stated that I disagreed with the ways and the means of certain individuals, that have spoken on the matter to a camera, in regards to how they have precluded to a wider call of assistance from other communities to try and help them with issues that they are either incapable of handling or unwilling to take care of themselves.

I DID NOT say that all people in the inner city are unable to handle or want to get control of their situations. I have NEVER said anyone from the inner city will turn out as a lowlife.  I have never said that they are unable to become productive citizens.  I have never said that anyone from the inner city is unable to overcome adversity.

YOU SAID THOSE THINGS.

If you assumed that I meant those things, then you read what you wanted to read to further legitimize your argument against me.  If that is the case, then maybe you should do some reflection on your statements and think as to why my words have upset you.

I dont know you ponch, your situation (only what you have typed in this forum), or what your goals are, BUT... to put words into my "mouth" (so to speak) about what you presume I am saying is way off base.  Read my words for what they are, not what you expect them to be.

Honestly, the truth is there.  Rural life and city life are apples to oranges.  That is the only way you can compare them.  I can leave my house unlocked, my garage door open and my cars unlocked with the keys in them and nothing will get robbed, stolen, or looted.  Can you all in cities say that for your property?  If you say NO, then I guess there is a difference to be stated here.  This difference, no matter what the population, shows a different set of values for those in my community versus the big city sub-communities.

[Todd Wilson]

 

[Mike DC]

Hey all. 


I think the only thing that matters is income/situation.  Rural, urban, recent, long ago, this race, that one, married, divorced . . . none of that matters compared to the poverty factor IMHO.  Lower down on the socioeconomic ladder = more kids like this. 

Even many of the so-called family factors are really cases of income issues IMHO.  The parents aren't around anymore because they're working 80 hours a week just to keep the kids adequately fed.  Show me a time/place where most parents raised their kids better, and I'll show you a time/place where the average family could afford to keep at least one of the parents at home more.

[Ponch ®]

Hey all. 


I think the only thing that matters is income/situation.  Rural, urban, recent, long ago, this race, that one, married, divorced . . . none of that matters compared to the poverty factor IMHO.  Lower down on the socioeconomic ladder = more kids like this. 

Even many of the so-called family factors are really cases of income issues IMHO.  The parents aren't around anymore because they're working 80 hours a week just to keep the kids adequately fed.  Show me a time/place where most parents raised their kids better, and I'll show you a time/place where the average family could afford to keep at least one of the parents at home more.

[AKcharger]

I'll say it...the hip hop culture has a big part to play in this. Rap pushes a "gangsta/thug" life style to fill the vacuum of missing Black fathers and their influence.

Just for fun go to google and plug in "Rap concert riots" and then "country music riots" and see how many hits you get. I'll answer for you, no country concert riots but there are TONS of riots at rap concerts. There IS a correlation to that lifestyle and violence in the inner city, here's a sample for ya' and all are for diffrent riots.

http://www.theinsider.com/news/662245_Rap_Concert_Turns_To_Rioting_In_Washington#
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-7197681.html
http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story/riots-follow-texan-rap-concert_1063290
http://allhiphop.com/stories/news/archive/2009/03/23/21250578.aspx
http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00015232.html
http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20080217175406750
http://news.absolutely.net/2009/03/25/rapper_necro_s_no_show_sparks_concert_riot_0131_5.html

[Todd Wilson]

I'll say it...the hip hop culture has a big part to play in this. Rap pushes a "gangsta/thug" life style to fill the vacuum of missing Black fathers and their influence.

Just for fun go to google and plug in "Rap concert riots" and then "country music riots" and see how many hits you get. I'll answer for you, no country concert riots but there are TONS of riots at rap concerts. There IS a correlation to that lifestyle and violence in the inner city, here's a sample for ya' and all are for diffrent riots.

http://www.theinsider.com/news/662245_Rap_Concert_Turns_To_Rioting_In_Washington#
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-7197681.html
http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story/riots-follow-texan-rap-concert_1063290
http://allhiphop.com/stories/news/archive/2009/03/23/21250578.aspx
http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00015232.html
http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20080217175406750
http://news.absolutely.net/2009/03/25/rapper_necro_s_no_show_sparks_concert_riot_0131_5.html

Better calm down before someone goes Kenny Chesney on yo ass!   



Todd

[bull]

It starts with the parents, that is the problem. Until the parents take responsibility and teach their kids right from wrong and responsibility, everything that happens in the inner city will continue to happen like a bad re-run. Kids  mimic what they see adults do. What they grow up seeing in these big cities like Chicago, Los Angeles etc. is all negative.

U.S. laws puts handcuffs on parents. You can't whip a kid anymore when they screw up big time. America needs to go back to good ol' times when kids knew how to respect elderly.

No, because then you'd cry about people shooting animals for food.

[bull]

Hey all.  


I think the only thing that matters is income/situation.  Rural, urban, recent, long ago, this race, that one, married, divorced . . . none of that matters compared to the poverty factor IMHO.  Lower down on the socioeconomic ladder = more kids like this.  

Even many of the so-called family factors are really cases of income issues IMHO.  The parents aren't around anymore because they're working 80 hours a week just to keep the kids adequately fed.  Show me a time/place where most parents raised their kids better, and I'll show you a time/place where the average family could afford to keep at least one of the parents at home more.

Oh, so money really does buy you happiness. Some of the most happy, well-adjusted people in this nation are low on the socioeconomic ladder. Additionally, there are enough govt. programs that you don't have to work one day if you don't want to and you can still drive your Escalade to the store to buy cigarettes, pork ribs and beer on everyone else's nickle. Money has nothing to do with morals.

[Ponch ®]

I'll say it...the hip hop culture has a big part to play in this. Rap pushes a "gangsta/thug" life style to fill the vacuum of missing Black fathers and their influence.

Just for fun go to google and plug in "Rap concert riots" and then "country music riots" and see how many hits you get. I'll answer for you, no country concert riots but there are TONS of riots at rap concerts. There IS a correlation to that lifestyle and violence in the inner city, here's a sample for ya' and all are for diffrent riots.

http://www.theinsider.com/news/662245_Rap_Concert_Turns_To_Rioting_In_Washington#
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-7197681.html
http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story/riots-follow-texan-rap-concert_1063290
http://allhiphop.com/stories/news/archive/2009/03/23/21250578.aspx
http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00015232.html
http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20080217175406750
http://news.absolutely.net/2009/03/25/rapper_necro_s_no_show_sparks_concert_riot_0131_5.html

LOL...this thread has officially jumped the shark.

I'm out.

[TylerCharger69]

This is true.....If the parents have family values and morals, then they will do their best to pass that knowledge on to the kids.  These are the parents who punish their kids like they are supposed to, and raise them to be a decent member of society, and wanting their kids to succeed in life.  If their parents are people who smoke crack, shoplift, beat people up for a couple of bucks...or no reason at all, and spend lots of time in jail or in prison...then their kids are doomed to the same fate.  That's the majority.  Now....there are some kids who just have mental issues.  The problem there is that most of the parents are too embarrassed  to either do anything about it, or sweep it under the rug so-to-speak to what they feel  would be humiliation to themselves, not so much the child who desperately needs a psychiatric  evaluation and medication. (I know a few) Then there are the parents who get a phone call or whatever saying their child has done this, or done that or got in some sort of trouble, then turn around and say "oh my child wouldn't do that....you are mistaken!!"  Basically saying..."Not my child".  That falls under the heading of denial.  When a police officer comes to their door and says "Your son/daughter was caught shoplifting" and the parent replies "Not my child"   The child gets a bit older, around 16 or so.  Parents get a phone call from the police station to come and pick the child up because they were arrested for stealing a car.  Again....the parent says  "Not my child"   A few years later...when a couple of police officers knock on the door of the parents and say "We believe your child has been killed in a drive by shooting....we need you to come to the coroner's office to identify the body".   Once again....parent says "There must be some mistake....that can't be my child!"........."I'm sorry...but yes ma'am.....YOUR child"......   Anyway....it's all about how a parent cares for the kids.  They don't come with instructions. I didn't come from an abusive family.   My dad used to whoop my ass good for a lot of things as i was growing up.  I deserved every one of them....and...I could have probably used a few more looking back at it now.  Today...I teach MY kids the same things as my dad taught me as a kid.  And honestly, fellow forum members......I have really good kids....thankfully.      Just thought I would share!!!     Ace

[chargermick]

We can throw all the money in the world at this problem and it still won't go away! The only person who stop these gangbangers is, DAD!!! If there is no dad, there isn't anybody at home who is strong enough to stand up to junior. When I was growing up and mom dished out punishment, we laughed it off. There was no laughing after dad got done. Another part of the problem is that the police officers have been handcuffed. Whenever something like this happens here in Chicago, the" preachers" fly in from all over the country to say that police aren't doing their jobs. Next week when the officers are doing their job, and some gangbanger gets busted up, or points a gun at a cop and gets dead, these same "preachers" fly back in to scream police brutality. You can't have it both ways folks, and you can't hand cuff the cops and still expect them to do their job.

[Mike DC]

  
Bull, I never meant to say that money was a valid predictor of average moral values.  Not among most normal functioning people who work for a living.  


But once you get into the really poverty stricken areas, the negative factors start piling up and the family structure tends to be in more trouble on average.  I think that produces more violent irrational kids statisically.  It could a dying small town that was destroyed by meth just as easily as a dying inner city neighborhood that was destroyed by crack.

   

[TeeWJay426]

I find both the content and timing of this thread very ironic, considering recent events that have occurred practically in my backyard. For further info, see the link below:

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091007/NEWS01/910079998

For those who don't view the link, I'll summarize as best I can. At 4 am this past Sunday, 4 teenagers broke into a house on a dirt road in Mont Vernon, NH- a typical, idyllic New England small town- and killed a 42 year old mom in her bed with a machete and knife, and tried to do the same to her 11 year old daughter. (She managed to survive the attack and called 911.) The house was apparently chosen completely at random, just because it was on a secluded dirt road. The two dirtbags that killed the woman in her bed were from my town; they apparently decided to go out and rob some house at random, with the prearranged idea that if anyone was inside the house at the time, they would kill them. We're not talking about inner city gang thugs here.... these are all kids from solid 2 parent families, living in good homes, who attended quality schools in sleepy little southern NH small towns. If these kids can make the leap from that to the thrill killing of an innocent mom and attempt to do the same to her 11 year old daughter, then there isn't much of any place that we can be safe anymore. The odds may be in your favor in small town New England or Kansas farm country, but it's no guarantee of safety. The mother came from a rough background in Arizona, and settled in southern NH for a quiet, safe lifestyle, never thinking that the last thing she would experience in her life would be waking up in her bed to a machete being swung at her skull.

Needless to say, my complacency living in a small New England town has been shaken this past week, as has that of many of my neighbors. I'm making sure the house and cars are all locked now, when I didn't worry about it before. I no longer get annoyed when my dogs bark at every little noise they hear, either. If kids from good backgrounds like these are capable of such horrific acts in small town southern NH, there is no place that is safe for anyone. The chances may be in your favor in small town USA as opposed to the inner cities, but in this game of life, your fate still comes down to a statistical crap shoot. And if these kids from good backgrounds are capable of doing what they did, it pretty well blows the theory that this behavior is related to socio-economic background... evil can be found in any social class.

[Mike DC]

  
I think it's how they were raised that is the factor.  I just think socioeconomics can be a factor in predicting the situation of how they were raised.  It's not a clear thing.  It mostly applies to the difference between having some kind of parents vs. not having any adults on the scene at all.  



My neighbors growing up were much richer than we were.  Their parents both worked very lucrative jobs all day long.  The kids went to expensive private schools, etc.  The family eventually moved away to a house 2x the size of ours when I was in high school.  

Wealthy or not, their 5 kids were messed up.  A couple of the younger ones were damn near psychotic IMO.  It's because the parents didn't raise the first two very well to start with, and then the younger ones were raised more by the siblings above them than the parents.  One time the youngest one literally ran at my father swinging a baseball bat.  He was about kindergarten age at the time.  

 

[Charger440RDN]

Growing up in a well off family doesn't guarantee that the kids won't be criminals either. I grew up in a nice neighborhood and I knew of several kids in that same neighborhood, living in nice houses that got arrested for stealing, vandalism, fighting, etc. I think a lot of them would do this stuff for the thrill of it, not worrying about the consequences.

As far as letting yur guard down you never should. I got lax a couple years ago because the area I lived in was quiet with hardly any crime. I started leaving my car doors unlocked at night and my car stereo got stolen. this is just a minor example but you should never leave the house unlocked or your car unlocked no matter how safe and quiet the area seems. Also there is a little town here Tuscola, IL and back around 1999 there was a car theft ring operating there and the population is small and in the middle of amish country   Lets not even get started talking about the meth labs out in the rural areas.

[AKcharger]

Well, I think we have to face the terrifing truth. If there are kids out there just murdering with no reason and there is no socio/economic/cultural/genetic/political driver, there is only ONE explaination; This is the 1st step in the zombie transformation!

[AKcharger]

Oh, and see the below post about Zombies and how to deal with them