the beating death of the student in chicago

[RD]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/33216357#33216357

First and foremost, I come from a small town in Kansas.  Violence in school consisted of bullying and teasing with words and the occasional fist fight, but in most cases we all got along as a community, focused on common goals and interests.  I have never experienced the urban city life as a child, teeniebopper or teenager.  I have never been in a gang.  I have never yielded a weapon towards another person due to gang related activities or out of anger (sans the military).  I have never intentionally gone out of my way to hurt, maim, or kill a person for means of retribution, street cred, or due to sociopathic tendencies.

So there, that is who I am and where I come from.

Now, I see this tragic event as something that happens all the time in the urban city neighborhoods across the United States.  But, I also understand that most of these do not end in the death of a child (I consider teenagers children in a sense).

I am not angered or upset by the reactions of the communities, the local and state governments, or even the federal government in this case.  I see any involvement to curb the violence as a positive and promising attempt to assist in the growth of the students/families as well as the communities.

My issue rests with watching some of the videos where people call out asking (paraphrased) "it takes a death on video to awake the country...", "these are acts of children who are powerless to become empowered", "there aint no staying out of it [the violence]", "it took somebody to die for people to really see what is going on", and "i mean, where everybody at?"

Why do I have issues with these statements?  Here is why:

1. It does not take a death of a child to wake up the country.  As a matter of fact, most of the country will probably view this as tragic and continue to not care what happens in inner city neighborhoods.  Yes, there will be a cry for justice, a scream for change, and a call for reform, but ultimately the majority of the country will not give two bits what is happening in the inner city youth as it will not affect them or their children.

2. The country is not awake to this.  This video, and the media coverage that follows, is today's news and will be soon overcome by the next celebrity embarrassment (i.e. britney spears does ...............<----- put act there).

3. "Where is everybody at?" Who is everybody?  Where are the officials that allow this type of behavior to happen?  Where are the parents that instill the moral right and wrong in their children at who allow this to happen? Where are the other kids who are supposed to set the right example for the miscreant youth at to get them to NOT act this way?  The kid asks where everyone is, I ask where are the influential people in their life that are supposed to let them know that this behavior is unacceptable?  Where is your parents?  Where is your extended family?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The media, the people on tv being interviewed, and the politicians will try and make this very sad event into a USA "societal" problem.  I may get flak for this, but I do not believe it is.  Why you may ask?  Because of this: THIS BEHAVIOR DOES NOT HAPPEN IN EVERY SINGLE SOCIETY, COMMUNITY, TOWN, TOWNSHIP, GROUP, OR SUB-CULTURE here in the United States.

There is violence everywhere (look at your tv, does a good job of finding the hotspots so you dont have to look).  The death of this child happened in a inner-city neighborhood where the percentage of gang related deaths is exponentially higher than in most regions in the United States.  The percentage of teenagers being in gangs is higher.  You play with fire, you are going to get burned.  

This is not a United States wide problem, this has and always will be a inner city problem where there are a plethora of cultural, behavioral, and familial variables that attribute to such delinquent based behavior.  There is no ONE issue that can be addressed to fix this.  Personally, I do not think it can be fixed as the nuclear family in inner cities has a higher probability of being dysfunctional due to the rates of single parentdom, divorce rates, pregnancy out of wedlock, and the fact that grandparents who adopt their grandchildren has/will become the norm at a greater and alarming rate.

I do believe that it is a problem, but instead of saying its a US wide problem, I say its their problem.  Focus yourselves on what you are NOT doing to curb this behavior.  Do not associate (or imply) the rest of the United States as having the same issues as these certain urban centers.  I cannot do anything to help a person who is unwilling to help themselves.  I cannot help people realize that violence is NOT their only means of communication if they are too ignorant to realize that fisticuffs is inappropriate non-verbal communication.

I guess I am just pretty tired of hearing individuals ask "where is everybody at?" when things like these happen, like it is everyone else's responsibility to fix something they are either unable to or unwilling to try and fix themselves.  I am not here to play the blame game, as that will not accomplish anything.  I will say that I believe the inner city sub-cultures of this country need to look more introvertedly to see that their approach to such issues are failing and have failed for long periods of time (just look at gangland violence history in the United States from the 1800's to present).  If the problem is violence and this violence is within their community, so then the solution to this violence is there for them to find and implement.  

A citizen of the United States, who is from Kansas, has two children, and lives in a town of 900 people does not have the SAME issues as those in the inner city.  So how is this my problem to be awakened to?

Anyone willing to provide constructive debate, refutation, or just comment is welcomed.  I just ask that you keep it civil, polite, and courteous of those who post.  First hint of disdain through vulgarity, sarcasm, or meanness and I will ask the mods to lock/delete this thread (whether or not they listen is another matter ).

On that note... let me hear your thoughts to how I am either:

1. on the money
2. out of my gourd
3. need some tweaking
4. havent thought it through
5. hopelessly ignorant.

I accept all constructive debate and criticism.  Thank you.

[Charger440RDN]

It starts with the parents, that is the problem. Until the parents take responsibility and teach their kids right from wrong and responsibility, everything that happens in the inner city will continue to happen like a bad re-run. Kids  mimic what they see adults do. What they grow up seeing in these big cities like Chicago, Los Angeles etc. is all negative.

[Ponch ®]

inner city this, inner city that.  =It's not a matter of geography, its a matter of how these acts are carried out.There are incidents like these all the time, and gang violence.

But really, the most heinous crap always happens in Small Town, Mid-America. That's where a kid will shoot up the school and take 20 classmates with him before shooting himself, or where Mr. Community Stalwart is revealed to be a pedophile, and so on and so forth.


Like it or not, it is a societal, US wide problem.

[skip68]

Very well said RD.     Like charger440RDN said, it stems from the home life.       These kids are shown this life by the parents for the most part.        If these kids have a father alive, he is either in jail or living under another roof.       Chuck........

[bull]

How many wake up calls are we up to now? Nothing is going to happen to stop this from happening again in the future. You can throw all the cash, programs, aide and preventation you want at this problem and it will keep on keeping on for as long as humanity exists on this planet. Some people are just wired screwy and they're going to kill.

[Ponch ®]

How many wake up calls are we up to now? Nothing is going to happen to stop this from happening again in the future. You can throw all the cash, programs, aide and preventation you want at this problem and it will keep on keeping on for as long as humanity exists on this planet. Some people are just wired screwy and they're going to kill.

exactly. As I said in my earlier post, it happens everywhere...its just comes in different flavors. This kid gets beaten to death, and then theres Va Tech or Columbine.

I grew up in 'da hood' in L.A., raised by my mom in a single parent home. I saw a bunch of "negative" things (which, as it were, are grossly overstated by the media because it provides an 'easy' answer to the problems). I went to a jr. high school that was the main recruiting area for 18th Street and MS 13 gangs. Still, I didn't become a gang member, nor do drugs, nor have beaten or shot anybody up.

[skip68]

I think that there should be a program for all these single parents in these areas to go to.  Make them take responsibility for their children.   The chain must be broken.   These so called parents know very well what kind of kids their kids are running with.   They know the kids will only get into trouble running the streets and yet they act shocked when something happens. "how could this happen to my baby"        As far as what happened at the school, it still stems from the streets, home and a negative lifestyle.         Ponch, you are lucky and must have had a good mother.   

[Ponch ®]

 Ponch, you are lucky and must have had a good mother.    

I did, but it's not like I'm some weird exception to the rule. Most kids that grow up in the ghetto/inner city don't turn out to be criminals. Sure, not all of them go to college, but the majority get jobs (blue collar or otherwise) and are more or less productive members of society. It's a matter of numbers. You guys in "small towns" don't have this "problem" because you don't have enough people. However, when you're in a city like L.A. or Chicago with 10 million people you're statistically bound to have crime, and then the media blows it out of proportion.

The irony is that RD bashes the media for overexposing the problem (and presumably not being credible), yet his perception of "the big city", which he then uses to back up his arguments, is entirely shaped by that very same media.

[Todd Wilson]

Straight outta Compton..................

[RD]

inner city this, inner city that.  =It's not a matter of geography, its a matter of how these acts are carried out.There are incidents like these all the time, and gang violence.

But really, the most heinous crap always happens in Small Town, Mid-America. That's where a kid will shoot up the school and take 20 classmates with him before shooting himself, or where Mr. Community Stalwart is revealed to be a pedophile, and so on and so forth.


Like it or not, it is a societal, US wide problem.

i disagree with you... as a whole.. there are far more violent acts in cities than there are in rural america.  i have been in many large cities, including LA, Frankfurt, Tokyo, Twin Cities, Atlanta, Dallas, Fort Worth, Austin, Oklahoma City, Houston, etc. etc. and the demeanor of people is totally different from those in small towns.

small towns have less of a population, but also the proportion of youth that are into gang activity is incredibly less too, to the point of saying there is NO gang in the town I live in.  The kids do not need a gang to be a part of a family, they have one.

In reply to your other post:

The irony is that Ponch bashes RD for using a media for overexposing a problem that Ponch uses to think that HE understands small town life. I stated from the beginning who I was, and where i came from.  I will not say I know everything about big city life, but even if there are millions of people, such behavior is still unacceptable, no matter what the population.  

Columbine is not a small town persay, but a small city, 24,000 people which in turn is a suburb of DENVER, a big city.  Your comment on pedophiles being related to small town life is kinda moot as there are pedophiles everywhere.  Gangs, however, are not.

[hemi-hampton]

I vote for #1.



P.S. Scumbag Parents raise Scumbag kids

[Khyron]

I vote for #1.

P.S. Scumbag Parents raise Scumbag kids

what he said... and bottom line, The U.S. justice system sucks ass.... There, I said it, bottom line, if you kill someone, you should die. that's it, end of story, you are a waste of breath, you are sucking up my air.

There are no real consequences anymore. They feal, "i'll get street cred now" "i'll get 3 hot and a cot"

no.... no you get dead. Not only that, screw this humane crap... you get killed the same way you took someones life...

There, hate me or not I said it... see how many stabbings, rapes, and murders happen when the people faces the fact that he will be rapes, stabbed and murdered.

I live in the wrong times damnit.... eye for an eye.

[Ponch ®]

inner city this, inner city that.  =It's not a matter of geography, its a matter of how these acts are carried out.There are incidents like these all the time, and gang violence.

But really, the most heinous crap always happens in Small Town, Mid-America. That's where a kid will shoot up the school and take 20 classmates with him before shooting himself, or where Mr. Community Stalwart is revealed to be a pedophile, and so on and so forth.


Like it or not, it is a societal, US wide problem.

i disagree with you... as a whole.. there are far more violent acts in cities than there are in rural america.  i have been in many large cities, including LA, Frankfurt, Tokyo, Twin Cities, Atlanta, Dallas, Fort Worth, Austin, Oklahoma City, Houston, etc. etc. and the demeanor of people is totally different from those in small towns.

small towns have less of a population, but also the proportion of youth that are into gang activity is incredibly less too, to the point of saying there is NO gang in the town I live in.  The kids do not need a gang to be a part of a family, they have one.

In reply to your other post:

The irony is that Ponch bashes RD for using a media for overexposing a problem that Ponch uses to think that HE understands small town life. I stated from the beginning who I was, and where i came from.  I will not say I know everything about big city life, but even if there are millions of people, such behavior is still unacceptable, no matter what the population.  

Columbine is not a small town persay, but a small city, 24,000 people which in turn is a suburb of DENVER, a big city.  Your comment on pedophiles being related to small town life is kinda moot as there are pedophiles everywhere.  Gangs, however, are not.

Sure, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

Does environment play a part? Absolutely, but it doesn't play a bigger part in the city than it does in small towns.  Maybe you don't have gangs where you live, but that's where some kid that is bored to death all of a sudden snaps and goes on a shooting rampage at school. Or at least some redneck will shoot you if you accidentally step on his front yard because he is "defending his property". Someone from the big city like me who often sees posts here about how someone just bought his 14th AR-15 might say "what do expect...these kids grow up around guns" It's just a different type of environment having a different type of effect with similar results.

[skip68]

OK, I can see the stabbing and shooting these idiots but......who will rape the rapist ? ? ?    I got it, another rapist.    

[Ponch ®]

......who will rape the rapist ? ? ?    I got it, another rapist.    

youve obviously never watched Oz or a good prison movie. 

[bull]

All that said, violent crime decreased in the US in 2008 according to the FBI.

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/jan09/ucr_statistics011209.html

Here are some of the report's highlights:  

Violent crimes in all population groups declined: murder by 4.4 percent, aggravated assault by 4.1 percent, forcible rape by 3.3 percent, and robbery by 2.2 percent.

On a regional basis, law enforcement in all four parts of the country reported a drop in violent crimes: 6.0 percent in the Midwest, 5.0 percent in the West, 2.9 percent in the Northeast, and 1.5 percent in the South.

Overall, property crimes fell in the Midwest (4.7 percent), the West (6.1 percent), and the South (0.4 percent).
Among population groupings, each category of property crime was down: motor vehicle thefts by 12.6 percent, larceny-theft by 1.2 percent, and burglaries by 0.8 percent.

Arsons dropped in all four regions of the country and among all population groups (with the exception of cities with populations of 250,000-499,999, where it actually increased 2.0 percent).

But there were some specific increases noted:

Murder and non-negligent manslaughter were up in mid-sized cities with populations of 50,000-99,999 (3.3 percent), along with smaller cities of populations under 10,000 (9.8 percent).

In the Northeast, forcible rapes were up slightly (0.6 percent), as were burglaries (2.7 percent) and larceny-theft (2.9 percent) over the same six-month period in 2007.

Cities with populations of one million-plus also recorded a 3.4 percent jump in forcible rapes.

Property crimes rose in the Northeast by 1.7 percent.

The South saw an increase in burglaries (0.6 percent) and larceny-thefts (0.5 percent).

[Khyron]

......who will rape the rapist ? ? ?     I got it, another rapist.   

youve obviously never watched Oz or a good prison movie. 

thats the point, a rape without the murder gets the rapest in jail, also raped, so he will want revenge, well, thats what the next guy gets

see, I've thought this out.

[RD]

Sure, but you're comparing apples to oranges. Maybe you don't have gangs where you live, but that's where some kid that is bored to death all of a sudden snaps and goes on a shooting rampage at school.

And kids snapping because they got their sneakers stolen and going to shoot up a house or do a driveby (since it happens more often) is no less a tragedy.  Just because the city folk are desensitized to it due to its common occurrence, does not make it any less of a tragic and horrific event.

Or at least some redneck

(<--- stereotyping? no need for that mate)

will shoot you if you accidentally step on his front yard because he is "defending his property".

This isn't the 1800's.. we dont ride horses to school, and the last time i punched cattle was from a quadrunner.

Does environment play a part? Absolutely, but it doesn't play a bigger part in the city than it does in small towns. It's just a different type of environment having a different type of effect with similar results.

Very non-similar results as the murder, robbery, arson, rape, and burglary rates in cities are exponentially higher than in small towns.  This difference (favoring small towns) can be attributed to many different things, but I will state its due to stronger moral values, a higher sense of accountability and citizenship, non-pack/gang mentalities, community based responsibility, stronger rural support networks and an overall higher sense of collective values.

statistics rule i guess -

Per 100,000:

Chicago burglaries: 15,863  per 100,000 = 205
Eskridge, Ks: .036 4 per 10,000 (town is 900)  so 4/x = 10,000/900 = .36 for 10,000 = .036 for 100,000

so for every 1,000 burglaries in chicago, we have 3.6 in Eskridge.

NOTE: We may get grandma saying her water hose was stolen which would account for a burglary

NOTE 2: Chicago statistic is specifically for burglaries, Eskridge statistic is for all property crime (could have used all of the property crime for chicago, but you get my point).

[Ponch ®]

Sure, but you're comparing apples to oranges. Maybe you don't have gangs where you live, but that's where some kid that is bored to death all of a sudden snaps and goes on a shooting rampage at school.

And kids snapping because they got their sneakers stolen and going to shoot up a house or do a driveby (since it happens more often) is no less a tragedy.  Just because the city folk are desensitized to it due to its common occurrence, does not make it any less of a tragic and horrific event.

Or at least some redneck

(<--- stereotyping? no need for that mate)

will shoot you if you accidentally step on his front yard because he is "defending his property".

This isn't the 1800's.. we dont ride horses to school, and the last time i punched cattle was from a quadrunner.

Does environment play a part? Absolutely, but it doesn't play a bigger part in the city than it does in small towns. It's just a different type of environment having a different type of effect with similar results.

Very non-similar results as the murder, robbery, arson, rape, and burglary rates in cities are exponentially higher than in small towns.  This difference (favoring small towns) can be attributed to many different things, but I will state its due to stronger moral values, a higher sense of accountability and citizenship, non-pack/gang mentalities, community based responsibility, stronger rural support networks and an overall higher sense of collective values.

statistics rule i guess -

Per 100,000:

Chicago burglaries: 15,863  per 100,000 = 205
Eskridge, Ks: .036 4 per 10,000 (town is 900)  so 4/x = 10,000/900 = .36 for 10,000 = .036 for 100,000

so for every 1,000 burglaries in chicago, we have 3.6 in Eskridge.

NOTE: We may get grandma saying her water hose was stolen which would account for a burglary

NOTE 2: Chicago statistic is specifically for burglaries, Eskridge statistic is for all property crime (could have used all of the property crime for chicago, but you get my point).

yeah, but those statistics are to be expected. Again, you're comparing apples and oranges  They belie the greater point I'm trying to make:

just because small towns generally don't have gangs or drive bys (apples) and whatnot doesn't mean that there arent bad things happening there. That's why when shit does happen in small towns (oranges), it makes the news. Look at some of the most heinous and twisted crimes in the last few years - Susan Smith, Jaycee Dugard, Lacy Peterson, the school shootings, that lady from texas,that drowned her kids in the bath tub, and so on..those all happens in idyllic small towns.

[BigRed66]

Studies, statistics, hand-wringing, and finger pointing...all valid forms of trying to put two and two together...bottom line is that God gave us all free will. We know right from wrong. No way we don't. I support the "scumbag parents raise scumbag kids" argument, as poor examples have been set, but, STILL, there are instances of right and wrong in these kids' faces and lives, so they know what they're doing is wrong, they just choose to do it anyway, consequences be damned. My old man told me a long time ago that life is full of choices; there's always forks in the road we travel. Which path you go down is ultimately up to you. Make a decision, live with the consequences should they arise. Don't cry when your dumb ass is in a jail cell or dead. You did it to yourself. I'm also with Khyron: eye for a motherf@#king eye. You kill, you die. The fewer of these pieces of garbage on the loose, the better. Why should we have to pay for these murderers' amenities? F@#kin' KILL `EM ALL.

[RD]

Look at some of the most heinous and twisted crimes in the last few years - Susan Smith, Jaycee Dugard, Lacy Peterson, the school shootings, that lady from texas,that drowned her kids in the bath tub, and so on..those all happens in idyllic small towns.

Oh so rare, but i guess since it was a blonde hair mom wanting to kill a teenager makes it that much more heinous than a non-blonde, non-woman doing a driveby and killing innocent people as well as their intended target.

the media has gotten ahold of those and ran with them because they are RARE and UNEXPECTED.  The idea of such atrocities taking place in small areas is so far from the norm that it makes for good news.  The rarity of such occurrences makes it even better news.

Now I got a question for you, what is worse:

1) The fact that the media uses small town crime as a means to increase ratings due to their rarity and unexpectedness ( you have to admit, they happen hardly ever )

OR

2) The fact that the media does not use big city atrocities because the consistency of such crime no longer shocks the consumers

if i doing apples to oranges, then the same can be said for you.

A driveby in Kansas is waving to your neighbor with your hand on a country road.

[RD]

Studies, statistics, hand-wringing, and finger pointing...all valid forms of trying to put two and two together...bottom line is that God gave us all free will. We know right from wrong. No way we don't. I support the "scumbag parents raise scumbag kids" argument, as poor examples have been set, but, STILL, there are instances of right and wrong in these kids' faces and lives, so they know what they're doing is wrong, they just choose to do it anyway, consequences be damned. My old man told me a long time ago that life is full of choices; there's always forks in the road we travel. Which path you go down is ultimately up to you. Make a decision, live with the consequences should they arise. Don't cry when your dumb ass is in a jail cell or dead. You did it to yourself. I'm also with Khyron: eye for a motherf@#king eye. You kill, you die. The fewer of these pieces of garbage on the loose, the better. Why should we have to pay for these murderers' amenities? F@#kin' KILL `EM ALL.

i agree... this society has transitioned itself to a "what can you do for me" instead of a "what can i do by myself" mentality.  The kids comment of "where everybody at" is a key statement in this.  Why do other people need to step in to correct the actions of the few?  Why cannot they correct themselves.  They all know that what they are doing is wrong by our culture's norms and beliefs, yet they continue to do it.

If a gang came into my little town and tried to setup shop, I can guarantee you the people would DO something about it, rather than allow such activities to take place.  There is a reason why gangs are not here, we dont put up with that crap.  The gang members, and such delinquent and criminal activity that follows them, dont exist in my town because of many reasons.  First and foremost is the strong country values we have.  Secondly, they have no purpose.  Thirdly, they could not exist as we would remove them most hastily.  Then, and only then, would Ponch's statement about getting out my yard really have significance and truth.  We do not put up with that type of shiza here where I live.  If you are wrong, you are told you are wrong.  No political correctness, no hoping you might go away, and definitely no fear of you bullying or intimidating people.  You either put yourself in check or you get put in check.  Black and White, that is the way it is.

[ZSmithersCharges]

 Ponch, you are lucky and must have had a good mother.    

I did, but it's not like I'm some weird exception to the rule. Most kids that grow up in the ghetto/inner city don't turn out to be criminals. Sure, not all of them go to college, but the majority get jobs (blue collar or otherwise) and are more or less productive members of society. It's a matter of numbers. You guys in "small towns" don't have this "problem" because you don't have enough people. However, when you're in a city like L.A. or Chicago with 10 million people you're statistically bound to have crime, and then the media blows it out of proportion.

The irony is that RD bashes the media for overexposing the problem (and presumably not being credible), yet his perception of "the big city", which he then uses to back up his arguments, is entirely shaped by that very same media.

Havent read this whole thing but. Dead on my man, I was raised by a single mother too... both me and my brother are going to college and out of college or on break we have jobs.  Sure not everyone from my school went to college but they are all working, I don't think anyone joined a gang but a select few are heavy into drugs and have situated themselves around other drugees to partake in drugee activity.  But this was a small minority of a large school.  Its exactly as you said, more people more problems and a far more flamboyant media to scrutinize every little thing.

[hemigeno]

In regards to why the media may focus more on tragedies which occur in rural areas, there's an old axiom in journalism to the effect of:

"Dog bites man" is NOT a story

"Man bites dog" IS a story


Common occurrences, e.g. metropolitan-area crimes, are not as newsworthy ("ratings-worthy" is perhaps more apropos), whereas the out-of-the-ordinary tragedies will get the focus every time.

[lisiecki1]

that lady from texas,that drowned her kids in the bath tub, and so on..those all happens in idyllic small towns.
[/quote]

Andrea Yates?  The town she lived in wasn't that small.....and definately not an idyllic small town.......