Re: Contemplating My Build Part II - DYNO RESULTS!!!: 658hp / 667 fpt

[joflaig]

Over a year and a half ago, with the help of members here, particularly Ron, I had a local shop build me an awesome street/strip 512 making 542 hp and 612 fpt at the crank. So far the motor has operated perfectly and the best time I've gotten is 12.17, though with some suspension adjustments and more practice I'm certain I will get into the high 11s, which was my goal -- though it's Oct. now in Wisconsin and I won't have but one more chance to go to the track (maybe).

Anyway, since I've been bitten by the racing bug and winter is 6 months long here, I figure I need to find a way to blow my salary during this time (luckily I did not get fired in the layoffs we had, so I can spend freely). Anyway, this is the original build and all the specs (mid-way through the page):

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,36197.180.html

Now before I even do anything with the heads, cam or intake, the first thing they're doing at the shop is to install a Gear Vendors Overdrive unit, a new Dana 60 w/4.10 gears from Dr. Diff, and a radiator support and inner fender braces, both from XV. I'll have to get a new driveshaft safety loop because the really cool adjustable one I have from US Car Tools that bolts to the tranny cross member won't work with a GV OD . I also had to buy a new 3" H-PIPE from TTI to replace the X-Pipe, because it too interfers with the OD unit. I also bought electric exhaust cut-outs from Marylandspeed. And lastly, will be ordering (most likely) a Hurst Pistolgrip Quarter stick to convert from a column shift to a floor shift.

So once all this is done by March or April, I will come back to the engine work. I had a long talk with Dwayne Porter, who everyone here has probably heard of. He really seemed to be a genuine mensch, as they say.

My goals remain the same: a street/strip setup needing low, or no maintenance. Since racing turned out to be so much fun and low end torque on the street such a blast, I ask: why not have even more! The Gear Vendors OD will make up for the loss of fuel economy when cruising, though to be honest what I am getting now is better than what I thought I would get.

However, not only did I talk to Dwayne, but also spoke first with Chenoweth Speed & Machine (they are near me).
Based on my parameters, this is what Chenoweth said I should do:

-Take existing Eddy Performers and use Modern Cylinder Head in Michigan to CNC the heads to 330 cfm
-Aim for 11:1 compression
-214 valve (?)
-springs need to be replaced
-push rods need to be replaced
-rocker arms work
-titanium retainers
-10 degree locks
-new head gaskets
-switch to hydraulic roller Cam from Comp
-switch to port matched Edelbrock Victor Intake (says adds 30hp over the Holley Street Dominator I have)
-Switch to Quick Fuel 1050hp race carb
-says current tranny setup is sufficient

Now when I talked with Dwayne, his first advice was not to get stuck on numbers. Based on what we discussed, though, he thought the car should turn out 650+ hp and 680fpt on pump gas. He was also very much against Chenoweth's idea of CNC–ing the current Eddy heads to that degree. He thought I could never make the power I wanted with these heads. Here's what Dwayne suggested:

-11:1 compression using Indy EZ-1 heads, hand-ported
-Indy dual plane intake, max wedge port size, 0 deck height (would fit stock hood)
-KEEP the existing carb (ProForm 950)
- Cam:  using a solid cam, he said, would be a little noisier and I would have to deal with valve lash, meaning making adjustments once a year. OR, he said try a bigger hydraulic cam (he mentioned a problem with floating valves). He said with a solid cam we could easily increase max RPM to 7000 (the current chip has a 6000rpm limit). Dwayne likes Comp Cams. He said they will optionally do plasma nitrating to take into account the lack of zinc in modern oils.

CAM science is hard for me to grasp. But I really want to avoid anything that forces me to deal with making annual value adjustments. I guess at the power levels I'm looking at this can have some drawbacks, even if I don't completely understand all the ins and outs.

Next, again, contrary to Chenoweth, Dwayne says that titanium retainers would be overkill and that chrome molly would be fine.

-10 degree locks
-Cometic brand head gaskets, multi-layer steel gasket

He said we would sell me a pushrod kit, but my local engine builder would have to cut them to length and push the tips in.

Dwayne also said I shouldn't need to do anything with the bottom end. I have billet Main Caps. He said low 11s would be a no brainer, high 10s possible, but largely only if the car was set up with higher stall (4400-4500) 9.5" torque converter -- which he said was good for the street and should gain 600-700rpm. Right now I have a 10" Street "S-800" Series Turbo Action Torque Converter. TA doesn't sell a 9.5" converter, just 8" and 10".

So, to reiterate, I think I will go with Dwayne, but the big questions I have are:

-Based on what I've said, what cam do I go with?
-Do I need a girdle?
-With whom and What should I use for a Torque Converter?

I'll post pics of everything that goes into this build over the next months. I have to do a lot to the car first in order to deal with the engine upgrades.

[firefighter3931]

Hi John, for what you want to do i would go with Dwayne's recommendations hands down ! The standard port head will limit RPM with a stroker which will in turn limit top end power. The max wedge EZ-1's with an ICH dual plane is the way to go. Dwayne has done enough of the standard port stroker builds to know how they behave so i would trust his judgement.

The problem with blowing out an Eddy head to flow 320 cfm is that it leaves the port walls thin and prone to potential leaks. The critical dimension in any port is the smallest area (pushrod pinch) and even max ported.....the RPM heads are still too small for a serious stroker build, even one that runs pump gas. The engine has to  pull well into the 6-6.5k range to carry the horsepower and torque. The eddy std port heads usually peak in the 5.5-5.6k range on those type of builds unless you throw lots of cam and compression at it to compensate for the small port. That in turn makes it less streetable and requires race gas.  

As for the cam....let Dwayne pick one for you and by all means go with the solid flat tappet. Nitriding the lobes and using an EDM style lifter with priority lobe oiling will make it reliable and durable.


The converter will need to be upsized. Dynamic has a 9.5in unit that would work fine with that application. I have one in my car right now that stalls right at 4000 rpm with my 446 and would stall to ~4500 behind a stroker. It will be for sale if you're interested because it won't work with my 572 that's currently being built....i need something a little more heavy duty.  


Racing is fun and yes it's addictive. I managed an 11.96 at Norwalk with the 446 at 4100 raceweight but i'm looking for more just as you are. Welcome to the downward spiral of drag racing. I wonder if there is a support group for guys like us !  




Ron


Ps. If you haven't seen this thread check it out : pics and youtube vids of the Black Pig in action 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,61906.0.html

[Runner]

this is an interesting post.    dont be afraid of the anual valve adjustments. get a set of the moroso valve cover gaskets. it takes me about 30 minutes every spring to adjust my valves.  i do it right before i change the oil.   really, im morso checking the adjustment and not adjusting . i probably tweek 4 of so adjusters every spring.  when i first put my aluminum heads on i adjusted the valves then i got the engine warmed up and pulled one valve cover and adjusted the valves, then got it warmed up again and adjusted the other side, i then let it sit over night and checked the adjustment. i found that i my adjustment grows .003 from cold to hot.  so now i adjust the valves cold .003 tighter.   

        im sure MR. Porter will make you happy.

[Runner]

Ron,  there is a suport group for the drag racing bug,  they have weekly meetings every saturday at a track near you....   congrats on getting your car to the track looks, sounds and runs great!!

[firefighter3931]

Ron,  there is a suport group for the drag racing bug,  they have weekly meetings every saturday at a track near you....   

That's no help....those guys have all the same issues ! 

congrats on getting your car to the track looks, sounds and runs great!!

Thanks Mike.....it's working well for what it is. The cam is too large and it's holding back the short times. It would probably ET much better with the XS282S and still run the same MPH. It's overcammed, no doubt but we were looking for the big HP number on the dyno and sort of lost track of the big picture. It's all part of the learning curve. Really this combo needs more stall and gear to ET & MPH better.....i'm going thru the traps at 5500 which is well below peak power. Even at 114mph it could ET at 11.50 if everything else was "right" with the stall and gearing. Not bad for a 4100lb Pig with 446 cubes and pump gas 


Sorry for the highjack John....back to your regularly scheduled programming. 




Ron

[Blown70]

personally I have chatted with Dwayne and would go with his suggestions above....

I dont think there is that much wrong with the other suggetions but, overall you will be much happier in the long run with Dwaynes suggestions.

Tom.

[mally69]

I love these big stroker posts         Trust dwayne he'll hook ya up with all the good stuff matched the right way, so that it runs the way it should. 

[joflaig]

The converter will need to be upsized. Dynamic has a 9.5in unit that would work fine with that application. I have one in my car right now that stalls right at 4000 rpm with my 446 and would stall to ~4500 behind a stroker. It will be for sale if you're interested because it won't work with my 572 that's currently being built....i need something a little more heavy duty.  

I watched those you tube vids, pretty cool! NOTHING more awesome than a black '68 (except a black '69). When ever I am at a track there are always so few MOPARs (never been to a MOPAR only event), it's like watching a rare species.

I may take you up on the converter. I guess I'll have one for sale too, as well as an x-pipe when they're out.

I guess adjusting the values is not something I should freak out about. For me, at least, I don't actually enjoy working on cars that much. It's more of a frustrating pain in *ss than anything else and I already have a lot of other pain in the *ss stuff I have to do, just like everyone else. But I do like to learn how everything works, to the extent that I can.

So  Ron, if it were you, how big a cam would you go with? It seems like your Black Pig had similiar street/strip goals. What kind of power with the Indy heads and intake will various cams make? I know Dwayne will give me advice, but it won't be months till I talk with him again, and getting some sense now would help me to think about what I want to do when the time comes. I guess from a more connservative to agressive spectrum what am I looking at in lift and duration and then power? In terms of streetablity every combo would have different pros and cons.

[Runner]

ron, how tall of a tire do you run?  it looks pretty tall.      4100 pounds is alot of car to get moving.  what did your car 60? and what carb do you run if you dont mind me asking.    the reason i ask is my car 60's kinda slow for the et and ive thought about trying a 950 hp but wonder if it would just 60' worse, mph better and et the same.   thats exactly what happened to my junk when i went to 1 7/8 hookers from 1 3/4 headmans. no real et change just moved some numbers around.

    joflaig, dont be afraid to pm dwayne or e-mail him, its nice to have the conversation in writting to go back and look at what he acually said months later. i have a pile pm's from him saved and i go back and look at them all the time.

    did dwayne give you any idea what size cam he would sugest?.      when i got my comp xe282s cam from him, he acually speced that cam for a 383 and at the last minute my friend/machinest told me to build a 451 sence all we needed was a 440 crank sence i had an old 400 block laying around.  i sometimes wonder if stepping up to a comp xe292s would be worth the effort.

[joflaig]

ron, how tall of a tire do you run?  it looks pretty tall.      4100 pounds is alot of car to get moving.  what did your car 60? and what carb do you run if you dont mind me asking.    the reason i ask is my car 60's kinda slow for the et and ive thought about trying a 950 hp but wonder if it would just 60' worse, mph better and et the same.   thats exactly what happened to my junk when i went to 1 7/8 hookers from 1 3/4 headmans. no real et change just moved some numbers around.

    joflaig, dont be afraid to pm dwayne or e-mail him, its nice to have the conversation in writting to go back and look at what he acually said months later. i have a pile pm's from him saved and i go back and look at them all the time.

    did dwayne give you any idea what size cam he would sugest?.      when i got my comp xe282s cam from him, he acually speced that cam for a 383 and at the last minute my friend/machinest told me to build a 451 sence all we needed was a 440 crank sence i had an old 400 block laying around.  i sometimes wonder if stepping up to a comp xe292s would be worth the effort.

We didn't get into specifcs on cam combos. I guess I could ping him again, just don't like to  seem like I'm pestering him.

[firefighter3931]

So  Ron, if it were you, how big a cam would you go with? It seems like your Black Pig had similiar street/strip goals. What kind of power with the Indy heads and intake will various cams make? I know Dwayne will give me advice, but it won't be months till I talk with him again, and getting some sense now would help me to think about what I want to do when the time comes. I guess from a more connservative to agressive spectrum what am I looking at in lift and duration and then power? In terms of streetablity every combo would have different pros and cons.

John, the cam for your build will be something relatively mild due to the power brake booster requirement. You might want to consider manual brakes or a hydroboost setup so that the cam profile can be made more agressive. I'm thinking that a mid 260@.050 cam on a 110* LSA should be in the ballpark. The Comp Cams "SQ" lobe family has moderately agressive lobes that make excellent power but are still stable at high RPM with reasonable valvespring pressures. Dwayne will select the right cam for the combination after he preps your cylinder heads. It's a huge advantage having your cylinder head Guru choose the cam....especially one as experienced as Dwayne.

I'm having a 572 built by Dwayne and he's doing the head porting and will also be selecting the cam for this combination. I trust him to make the right choice and know that he will 

As for the valve lash.....don't be intimidated by that at all....it's a piece of cake ! Once you do it once or twice you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. I like doing the lash check once a year because it gives me the opportunity to inspect the valve train and see if there is anything unusual going on.

I will also recommend this video to you.....it's a must have for any hot rodder. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62311.0.html



Ron

[joflaig]

So  Ron, if it were you, how big a cam would you go with? It seems like your Black Pig had similiar street/strip goals. What kind of power with the Indy heads and intake will various cams make? I know Dwayne will give me advice, but it won't be months till I talk with him again, and getting some sense now would help me to think about what I want to do when the time comes. I guess from a more connservative to agressive spectrum what am I looking at in lift and duration and then power? In terms of streetablity every combo would have different pros and cons.

John, the cam for your build will be something relatively mild due to the power brake booster requirement. You might want to consider manual brakes or a hydroboost setup so that the cam profile can be made more agressive. I'm thinking that a mid 260@.050 cam on a 110* LSA should be in the ballpark. The Comp Cams "SQ" lobe family has moderately agressive lobes that make excellent power but are still stable at high RPM with reasonable valvespring pressures. Dwayne will select the right cam for the combination after he preps your cylinder heads. It's a huge advantage having your cylinder head Guru choose the cam....especially one as experienced as Dwayne.

I'm having a 572 built by Dwayne and he's doing the head porting and will also be selecting the cam for this combination. I trust him to make the right choice and know that he will 

As for the valve lash.....don't be intimidated by that at all....it's a piece of cake ! Once you do it once or twice you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. I like doing the lash check once a year because it gives me the opportunity to inspect the valve train and see if there is anything unusual going on.

I will also recommend this video to you.....it's a must have for any hot rodder. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62311.0.html



Ron

Vacum should NOT an issue, I already have a Hydroboost setup for the breaks, which work great. If you have big discs on all four corners and power steering, I think it may be the bestway to go without a lot of headaches.

Right now the cam is 244/250 duration @ .050.

Since there will be an overdrive installed I'm leaning more to the aggressive end of the spectrum.

Now, without blowing a wad to convert to a manual transmission, which I really don't want to do, is there such a thing that allows you to kind of switch from the control of a manual value body tranny to an a full automatic with the flick of switch? When racing the 727 had a tendency to decide when it wanted to shift into 3rd which was not always at the optimal RPM, I think.

[firefighter3931]

Now, without blowing a wad to convert to a manual transmission, which I really don't want to do, is there such a thing that allows you to kind of switch from the control of a manual value body tranny to an a full automatic with the flick of switch? When racing the 727 had a tendency to decide when it wanted to shift into 3rd which was not always at the optimal RPM, I think.

John,

Turbo Action has several different valvebodies available and they do make a manual/automatic performance model. This unit allows for automatic shifting during normal driving as well as full manual control while racing. I use a full manual VB in mine with the forward pattern and just shift manually as required. 


Ron

[joflaig]

Now, without blowing a wad to convert to a manual transmission, which I really don't want to do, is there such a thing that allows you to kind of switch from the control of a manual value body tranny to an a full automatic with the flick of switch? When racing the 727 had a tendency to decide when it wanted to shift into 3rd which was not always at the optimal RPM, I think.

John,

Turbo Action has several different valvebodies available and they do make a manual/automatic performance model. This unit allows for automatic shifting during normal driving as well as full manual control while racing. I use a full manual VB in mine with the forward pattern and just shift manually as required. 


Ron

Cool, I guess if I have any money left over after all this, I'll look into that.

[firefighter3931]

ron, how tall of a tire do you run?  it looks pretty tall.      4100 pounds is alot of car to get moving.  what did your car 60? and what carb do you run if you dont mind me asking.    the reason i ask is my car 60's kinda slow for the et and ive thought about trying a 950 hp but wonder if it would just 60' worse, mph better and et the same.   thats exactly what happened to my junk when i went to 1 7/8 hookers from 1 3/4 headmans. no real et change just moved some numbers around.

   

Mike, sorry i missed this question initially. 

The tires are tall 295/65/15's which are close to 30in mounted up. Gear is a 4.10 Dana 60. The best 60ft has been 1.75 which is not bad given the tall tire and lack of gear. This cam really needs a 5k stall to launch well at the 4100 raceweight and i've managed just over 4k (stall) with the overcammed 446. The carb is an AED 850 double pumper and it feels great...no stumble or off idle bog. The headers are probably too big as well but when i was buying parts the long range plan was for a 493 so the exhaust was sized with that future build in mind. Lots of stuff mismatched for the "current" build.


Ron

[Runner]

thanks for the the info Ron.     you could always try a shorter tire.  if ya lived closer id loan ya my 28.5x9 slicks and see if they help.  i think when these die im going to give a drag radial a shot. 

  joflaig, i hope ya keep us posed on this. im interested in how it all works out.

[joflaig]

thanks for the the info Ron.     you could always try a shorter tire.  if ya lived closer id loan ya my 28.5x9 slicks and see if they help.  i think when these die im going to give a drag radial a shot. 

  joflaig, i hope ya keep us posed on this. im interested in how it all works out.

I'll post some pics this weekend of all the parts I have gathered up so far. Just got the pistol grip shifter today from summit, awesome!

[joflaig]

When to the shop yesterday to check the progress. They are willing to only work on the car just 1 week per month since winter is essentially 6 months here so this is making it all afforable and at the end everything should be accomplished.

First things before the motor can be upgraded is strengthening the body. They've got most of the work done installing the XV radiator support and inner fender braces.

[joflaig]

Went to the shop today, lots of work has been done. It won't be for at least another month until I get back on the phone with Dwayne Porter. Anyway, they're going to pull the motor and I'll have the cam, heads and intake swap done at a local engine builder.

You can see in these first pics the XV radiator support as well the new fenders from AMD. AMD's shipper (Averitt Express) did a lousy job of handling them and there were some dents and scratches. Averitt refused to pay for the damage because they said the parts were not inspected upon delivery. The delivery guy just dropped them off then split. The guys at the shop never even had a chance to inpect them. AMD says they don't use Averitt Express exlusively. I would advise anyone ordering from AMD to ask that they not use Averitt Express when shipping their stuff. On the whole, I have nothing but positive things to say about AMD.

[joflaig]

Here's a pic of the new Dana 60 ordered through Dr. Diff with 35 spline Strange axels, a True-Trac diff, and 4.10 gears. I'm told it should be good for up to 1000 hp. And below that is a shot of the 727 with the GV over drive unit bolted on. We ordered a new aluminum driveshaft to replace the old steel shaft.

The controls for the OD are hidden in the glove box.

[joflaig]

Lastly, I'm converting from a column shift to a floor shift. I got a new "old" steering column from Tony's Parts. They are good to work with. We were able to keep the current steering column in place and just swap-out the upper die-cast molding where the old shifter and indicator was. The red button on top of the pistol grip shifter is for the OD unit. We also customized the shifter housing. The button and indicator lights you see there are for the electric exhaust cutouts. I thought this would be neat place to put the controls for that.

[joflaig]

Well, I took the plunge today and ordered everything through Dwayne Porter. We talked at length and he came up with the combo to use. Because it's a street/strip car and because I'm having a GV overdrive unit installed it made no sense to go too nuts on the size of the cam, for example. He's saying I should make no less than 625 hp and around 640fpt. I guess we'll find out. I don't know if I will be able to sneak into the high 10s or not. The chassis, rear end and suspension should be ready for that at this point. Anyway, I think I'm going to get the right balance between street & highway drivability and the increased performance that I wanted. This is about as far I think I will go with this car, otherwise it will end becoming a pure dragster.

Here are the details:

1. Indy EZ heads, MW port size, Comp dual springs (pressure about 160 on the seat and 400 open), Comp steel retainers, Comp 10deg locks, Viton seals. PRH prep-(honed guides, re-machined valve seats (valve job), back cut valves, final wash, assembly, set spring pressures, bowls ported, chambers ported, pushrod tunnels clearanced for use with 1.6 rockers, ARP head bolts

2. Indy 440-6R valley cover with removable panel

3. Indy cast alum. valve covers

4. Cometic head gaskets, Indy valve cover and intake manifold gaskets, Fel-Pro cam swap gasket kit.

5. Harland Sharp rocker kit, 1.6 ratio

6. Comp solid flat tappet cam, plasma nitrided, with EDM lifters (duration 255/260, lift a little over 600)

7. Comp checking pushrod (engine shop will order and machine rods from Smith Bros.)

8. Indy 440-2D intake manifold, opened to MW size, plenum divider reduced

He said the compression would probably be about 10.8:1. He's not going to mill the heads for 11:1, didn't think for my purposes it would make a great deal of difference and at 10.8:1 there is slightly less need to worry about detonation problems. The Proform 950 carb I have now would be fine, he said.

For the valve covers I'll have the engine shop put in breathers and baffles, I guess the "K&N air filter" setup, basically. Someone had suggested hoses and a canister. Not sure of the advantage there.

The other thing was I'll be able to change out the rev limiter chip for a 7000k.

I'm also having them put a 440 source 1/4" girdle on the bottom. I don't know if an argument can be had about the necessity of doing that, but it surely can't hurt anything. The main caps are billet.

It will be 3-4 weeks before the speed shop gets everything and another week for them to put it together and get it on the dyno. It is a pain coordinating between two engine builders, and I hope there are no issues.

Ron, if you're reading this, I'm interested in that 9.5" Dynamic Torque converter. Do you still have it?

[six-tee-nine]

If you don't mind me asking, what does a set of these heads with that Harland sharp rocker stuff set you back trough dwayne Porter?

[Lostsheep]

What a great build....awesome!!

[firefighter3931]

That's a great plan of attack.....should make gobs of power and pull hard up top ! 

John, i'll send ya a PM on the converter 


Ron

[joflaig]

Ask three people the same question and you get three different answers -- plus you'll need whatever they happen to have on the parts shelf at the moment...  

I'm trying to decide what to do with my torque converter. After talking with multiple parties, one unexpectedly raised issues they saw with my tranny setup (more below). The consensus seems to be that the central conundrum with this build is the fact that there are 4.10 gears paired with a Gear Vendors overdrive, a lot of power, and that the car is meant for maybe 60-65% street, 35-40% strip. Trying to balance all this is not simple it seems. Perfomance with the new heads, intake and cam was expected to be about 625hp, 640 fpt. That's up from 543hp, 612 fpt.

Basically, when you call anyone who sells torque converters this is what they want to know:

Carb: ProForm 950
Intake: Indy Dual plane
Heads: Indy EZ Max Wedge size
Motor/cubes: 440 stroker (505cid)
Compression: 10.8:1
Cam & duration: Comp solid flat tappet, 256/262 duration on 112*lsa, .605/.624 lift
Header size: 2"
Gears: 4.10
Rear tire size: 275/60/15 drag radials

...and in this case, the Gear Vendors OD ratio: 4.10 X .78 = 3.20

The next thing they want to know is how you plan to use the car. Then they do a lot of calculations and make a suggestion.

Currently, I have a 10" Street "S-800" Series Turbo Action Torque Converter (Tight) Part #17805ST. The Advertised Flash Stall Rating is 3,800 rpm. So I called the tech line at Turbo Action. Very nice folks. A lot what they said went a bit over my head, especially when they started talking about various options and timing advance. But basically, in the end they thought I should stick with what I have, at least for now. Their advice: see what my RPM is at 65mph, compare my 60ft times and 1/4 ETs with I was doing before the upgrades and call them back with the results for their advice.

Next, I tried Dynamic Converters. They sell a 9.5" Race/ Street converter. They were very helpful and some phrases came out like 3% slipping, ultra-tight, flash 3300-3500 stall speed...and, yes, buy the 9.5" from us! Argh. If you call and ask about a specific part you think may meet your combo often they will tell you should buy it, but what is the truth?!  

Lastly, I tried a well known Mopar parts specialist in Oregon. They were extremly knowledgeable and very helpful on the phone. They race a '69 with a Gear Vendors. Actually, you could tell they do a lot of racing. So even explaining that this was a street/strip car, my impression was the bias in the advice tended more toward racing setups. Anyway, this call scared me. I have not thought at all about what increased engine performance will mean for the tranny. Let me mention, however, that the guys who re-built my 727 two years ago are local Mopar gurus. They used a Heavy duty B&M Flex Plate, A&A Ultimate Rear Sprag gear, A&A Rollerized Rear Governor Support w/ Bearings, and Red lined clutches. Talking about the converter, this shop in Oregon threw out things like PIA, dual pattern, and over heating the tranny. They wanted to know about the distributor (MSD pro billet) and timing. The bad part was they said with the torque I would be making that I absolutely must convert to a full manual valve body on the tranny (and they just happened to have an A&A right now I could have). They really thought the combo outlined above would cause the tranny to overheat (it has a huge external radiotor) and cause parts to break.

I just don't know what to think? I really don't want to switch to a full manual valve body because on the street it is not so convient (for me at least), though on the strip, granted, it would be perfect.

Is anybody here running this kind of power through a 727 without a manual valve body and using a GV OD, plus 4.10 gears? Is my stock valve body going to cause problems? What are some alternatives? By going to the Dana 60 the rear end is basically built proof now. I don't want to have to worry about the tranny! Maybe now I will call Gear Vendors and ask them what they think.

[firefighter3931]

Hi John,

As we discussed previously my first choice would be the 10in converter that you allready have. The advise from Turbo Action is sound and they make an excellent converter that is efficient and the stall speed is right where you want it to be for a dual purpose car ; enough stall to effectively launch the car and tight enough to cruise at highway speed with the overdrive. You can allways add a trans temp guage to monitor temps on the highway but with the B&M supercooler you won't have any problems, inmo.

As for the strength of a torqueflight ; it's plenty strong for what you're planning to do. Your's is rebuilt with good parts and the stock valvebody does have the low band apply feature which helps protect the rear sprag (which you've allready upgraded). The key is to do burnouts in second gear only to protect the sprag....as long as you do this the trans will be fine. A manual valvebody helps with shift overlap allowing the shifts to be smoother/quicker but the stock VB will work, just not as effectively. You can allways add a reprogramming kit later if you want quicker upshifts but i would still try it first and see what you think. 

The MSD distributor is fine, no need to recurve it. The black bushing will give you 18* of mechanical advance so all you need to do is set the base timing at 17* and the total will come in at 35* which will idle well and make great top end power. The cam Dwayne picked isn't overly large and it will be easy to tune and have nice street manners. 


To summarize :

-keep the TA converter
-add a trans temp guage to alleviate your overheating fears
-burnouts in 2nd gear only
-use the black bushing in your distributor if it isn't allready in there and set timing to 17* at idle

* most importantly : enjoy your car ! 




Ron

[Hemidog]

So the new radiator support actually goes UNDER the old one? Or is it the way you did it? I thought the new one replace the old one. 

[joflaig]

So the new radiator support actually goes UNDER the old one? Or is it the way you did it? I thought the new one replace the old one. 

The new one completely replaced the old one. It can be done either way, actually, but typically the old piece is cut out and the new welded into it's place.

[joflaig]

Hi John,

As we discussed previously my first choice would be the 10in converter that you allready have. The advise from Turbo Action is sound and they make an excellent converter that is efficient and the stall speed is right where you want it to be for a dual purpose car ; enough stall to effectively launch the car and tight enough to cruise at highway speed with the overdrive. You can allways add a trans temp guage to monitor temps on the highway but with the B&M supercooler you won't have any problems, inmo.

As for the strength of a torqueflight ; it's plenty strong for what you're planning to do. Your's is rebuilt with good parts and the stock valvebody does have the low band apply feature which helps protect the rear sprag (which you've allready upgraded). The key is to do burnouts in second gear only to protect the sprag....as long as you do this the trans will be fine. A manual valvebody helps with shift overlap allowing the shifts to be smoother/quicker but the stock VB will work, just not as effectively. You can allways add a reprogramming kit later if you want quicker upshifts but i would still try it first and see what you think. 

The MSD distributor is fine, no need to recurve it. The black bushing will give you 18* of mechanical advance so all you need to do is set the base timing at 17* and the total will come in at 35* which will idle well and make great top end power. The cam Dwayne picked isn't overly large and it will be easy to tune and have nice street manners. 


To summarize :

-keep the TA converter
-add a trans temp guage to alleviate your overheating fears
-burnouts in 2nd gear only
-use the black bushing in your distributor if it isn't allready in there and set timing to 17* at idle

* most importantly : enjoy your car ! 

Ron

Thanks Ron for being a great sounding board. What you're saying pretty much confirms my gut reaction to the different things I was hearing.

The tranny temp gauge is a good idea. At what actual temps do you want to be concerned?

[firefighter3931]

Thanks Ron for being a great sounding board. What you're saying pretty much confirms my gut reaction to the different things I was hearing.

The tranny temp gauge is a good idea. At what actual temps do you want to be concerned?

You're welcome John.  

Usually trans temps in the 220* range is cause for some concern. Out on the hwy with lots of air slamming against the B&M supercooler you won't see anything like that. In town stop & go traffic will probably put more heat into the trans. Those Supercoolers are fantastic and i don't anticipate any problems with your combo.



Ron

[joflaig]

Dyno numbers are in, 2nd pull was 658hp at 5600rpm, and peak torque was 667 at 4400rpm! This exceeded my expectations. I'm very pleased. I was worried that having the heads and cam spec'ed out and worked on by one place and then having the assembly and break-in done at a second shop would be a headache, but everything went very smooth.

Just to recap, this was the original build and all the specs (mid-way through the page):

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,36197.180.html

The goal with the "re-build" (and all of the additional work to the car previously outlined in this thread) was to take the idea of street/strip performance to pretty much a rational-minded limit (at least to my mind).

Excluding the girdle, only three things were changed on the motor: the cam, intake manifold, and the heads. So let's do a straight comparison:

OLD Cam:
Engle Hydraulic Cam (k62 intake lobe/ k64 exhaust)
-244/250 duration @ .050
-.540/.557 valve lift
-110* lsa

NEW Cam:
COMP solid flat tappet, custom grind - Part# 23-000-5
-256/262 duration @ .050
-.567/.585 valve lift
-112* lsa
-nitrided

OLD Intake:
stock Holley Street Dominator (low rise single plane) - Part# HLY-300-14

NEW Intake:
Indy 440-2D, opened to Max Wedge size, plenum divider reduced

OLD Heads:
stock Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads 84cc
-Comp Cams Pro Magnum Shaft Mount Roller Rocker Arms - Part# CCA-1321-16
-Comp Cams 3/8 .080 Wall Pushrod set
-Comp Cams "stock" springs
-Comp Cams Pro Magnum Hydraulic Lifters - Part# CCA-867-16

NEW Heads:
Indy EZ heads (opened to Max Wedge - EZ-1)
-Harland Sharp rocker kit, 1.6 ratio
-Smith Bros. Pushrod set
-Comp dual springs (pressure about 160 on the seat and 400 open)
-Comp steel retainers
-Comp 10deg locks
-Viton seals
-ARP head bolts

PERFOMANCE SUMMARY:

The old setup peaked out at 543hp at 5200rpm vs 658hp at 5600rpm with the new, and 612 fpt at 4200rpm vs 667 fpt at 4400rpm. So I gained 115hp and 55fpt.

OLD setup at 3500rpm: 385hp / 578fpt
NEW setup at 3500rpm: 425hp / 637fpt

OLD setup at 6000rpm: 512hp / 448fpt
NEW setup at 6000rpm: 644hp / 564fpt

The dyno testing for the new and old were both done on the same machine and with 110 octane race gas each time. Dwyane Porter mentioned that the higher octane gas (vs 93) would likely have had only a very marginal effect on the numbers.

Total timing on the ignition during dyno testing was 35 degrees. I'm going to switch the RPM limiter chip to 6800. I will take the car back to the speed shop when the engine is back in order to get the tuning tweaked (hopefully sometime in the next couple of weeks). They said to expect 500hp at the rear wheels.

Here's a link to a 2 min (15.5mb) video of some warm up and revving (turn the volume way up!):

http://johnflaig.com/jf/gl/dynotest.wmv

Below are scans of the Cam card, the flow chart for the heads, and 3 pages from the dyno testing.

I'm going to the resto shop tomorrow so I hope to have some new pics.

I am very curious to see how the new engine combo works with the over drive and 4.10 gears, and of course what it can do on the track! It's awesome to think that soon I'll get to drive around on the street in car with more engine than a ZR1 and even most exotics. 0-60 calcs put the figure at about 3.5 seconds, 1/4 mile ET calcs differ...one says 11.2, others 10.6. I guess we'll find out.

Ron, thanks again for your advice on all this!  

[joflaig]

last page

[elacruze]

Awesome!

For what it's worth, I helped race my neighbor's bracket car a couple years ago; 572" Indy wedge, 727 trans, 4.10 Dana 60. This was in an old Mancini ladder bar chassis with an Omni-Daytona body on it, weight was about 2200# if I remember correctly. This rig was running about 9 flat, dipping in the high 8's at the time. A three speed tranny was too harsh and we ended up with a powerglide. The car eventually ended up going as fast as 8.15.

Anyway, nothing broke for about 150 passes; eventually we learned the hard way (and they didn't listen when I told them something was going way wrong in the driveline) that a D60 in a fast car needs to have specialty strip gears. Street gears are too hard and the teeth eventually break off. So they did, and somewhere in the middle of the 60 foot, the pinion spun the teeth off and when it rehooked, the transmission split in half. Oops.
Bottom line is, for anything less than a full-on race car, that 727 will be just fine. Your D60 should be fine too, if you're not abusing it every weekend in a very fast car.

[tan top]

thats  a nice motor    good numbers

[firefighter3931]

Fantastic results John ! The bigger heads are really letting that stroker shine and holding the power up top !  There's virtually no drop-off in power between peak @ 5600 and the end of the dyno pull @ 6000 

The torque curve is nice and flat too....no real need for increased stall, inmo. Dwayne hit a home run with the cam/rocker arm/head/intake manifold combination. You will definately feel a huge difference and the car will ET/MPH much better at the track.

Congrats 



Ron

[oldschool]

awesome job! i just did my motor and only made 58 more horsepower and a little less torque. to do it i had to have my compression at 13.1,a solid roller cam,and sr heads. burning race gas is getting old,i think i like your combo better...congrats again on a nice motor.

i also think you will be 525-535 at the wheels,let us know.

[Challenger340]

Great Job ! You should be very Happy

Just Curious and I must have missed it somewhere, but what was the Final Compression Ratio as tested ?

[68chargerboy]

cant wait to see what ur car will run now! 

[joflaig]

Great Job ! You should be very Happy

Just Curious and I must have missed it somewhere, but what was the Final Compression Ratio as tested ?

According to Dwayne 10.8:1.

[joflaig]

Here's some shots of the newly installed and now painted AMD fenders. Great parts!