Bull's suspension/steering questions thread

[bull]

I got tired of posting one question per thread so I thought I'd start one catch-all thread where I can (hopefully) get all my questions answered. That and Gowdy gets to put his name in most every one of his thread titles so I thought I'd try it once.

1. On the LCA pivot point, is there supposed to be some side to side play there?

2. On the LCA bushings, is there just one inner sleeve surrounded by rubber or is there an outer sleeve too?

3. Is there a shelf life on torsion bars? Maybe "shelf" is the wrong word since they've been on the car for 40 years but you get my drift.

4. Can you powder coat torsion bars or does that process heat them too much to sustain the correct temper? I think it's around 400-degrees.

5. Why do people replace pitman arms and idler arms if/when they're not damaged?

I'll have more later I'm sure so please stay tuned.

[John_Kunkel]

1) Yes, when the suspension is unloaded

2) There is an inner and outer sleeve, the outer is no fun to remove.

3) "Shelf" life would infer sitting unused for that 40 years, being in active use in that same 40 years would fatigue the bars just like any stressed metal part.

4)I can't say with any certainty but I doubt if that temperature would hurt them. (Metalurgists feel free to swat me down)

5) It's the "everything must be new" syndrome, I don't understand it either.

[Dans 68]

I'll try to answer #3 and 4....

#3  There is no "shelf" life on torsion bars, as the act of being twisted is what wears them out. It is called "fatigue factor" and it differs based upon the material, diameter, length and the actual stresses put upon the bar. It would take an awful lot of hard usage to break a bar, but the spring rate will change over time and use. Not a big difference but it is there. If the car settles too much just adjust the bar to get the stance you want, as the spring rate will be close to its original rate.

So unless you want a spring rate that is firmer or softer, don't worry about the bars. Inspect them, of course, for damage but they should be fine.

#4  I wouldn't risk heating up torsion bars in order to powder coat them. Too many unknowns that would have to be researched. All torsion bars are made of high strength steel, probably a 4140 or 4340 alloy steel, that is heat treated and quenched to achieve a desired hardness on their surfaces, followed with tempering to get the ductility back (so they will not easily break).    

Dan

[bull]

2) There is an inner and outer sleeve, the outer is no fun to remove.

Crap. I can already tell it's going to suck. So when you press that bushing in do you just press it and the LCA shaft in at the same time or one at a time? I have access to a press so I'll be doing this myself.

[gasoline_24]

I did them one at a time.  They went in pretty easy.  I was concerned too before I got started,  but it was pretty easy.  It does help to have someone else there to keep everything in line.

[CB]

5. Why do people replace pitman arms and idler arms if/when they're not damaged?

The idler arm came with the super rebuild kit. The pitman arm has some play so it will be replaced.
OK, I am one of the guys who's gonna say '' Every part is replaced by brand new stuff''
CB

[gasoline_24]

I am with you CB.  I figure it is all apart right now and I don't want to put it all together and find out one part should have been replaced.  I am replacing or restoring everything and hopefully when it is all back together everything works.  I am sure there will be parts that do not, but I will deal with those if they show up.

Greg

[Ranger Max]

.

[b5blue]

I just replaced my T bars and springs with new Mopar HD stuff and since that's what was on there I can tell you it makes a difference. The reaction rate is smoother and the car feels more sure footed in traffic. I rebuilt my front end and the tie rod's, pitman arm and upper ball joints were fine so they got new seals and stayed, the idler arm is a rubber bushing where it mounts to the sub frame so for that reason it was replaced after 40 years. Hope that helps ya Bull  

[bull]

I was wondering about the pitman arm too. Can you replace the rubber on it and use it again? If so where do you get the rubber?

Do you mean the idler arm? I don't think there's any rubber attached to the pitman arm is there?

[CB]

I was wondering about the pitman arm too. Can you replace the rubber on it and use it again? If so where do you get the rubber?

Do you mean the idler arm? I don't think there's any rubber attached to the pitman arm is there?

He's prolly refering to the rubber seal, wich will be destroyed when you 'pickle fork' the pitman arm off the centre link.
The boot is available through Jims autoparts http://jimsautoparts.com/steering_parts.htm





SP-1466P
Pitman Arm SEAL - 64-76 All A, B & E Body [New original Mopar part] (this is not the same as idler arm or tie rod end seal as others claim!)
$ 24.95 ea.

[Ranger Max]

.

[GreenMachine]

#5

I have more confidence in the old part than a new one (it's already proven itself). If it's not worn, I clean it up and re-install.

[bull]

Thanks for the replies fellas. I'll be posting more questions once I get more new parts in. Hopefully I'll be boxing my LCAs this coming weekend.

And I'm on the fence regarding the torsion bars but of all the suspension parts I think those might be the easiest to replace.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I have powder coated T-bars before without issue   

[John_Kunkel]

#4  I wouldn't risk heating up torsion bars in order to powder coat them. Too many unknowns that would have to be researched. All torsion bars are made of high strength steel, probably a 4140 or 4340 alloy steel, that is heat treated and quenched to achieve a desired hardness on their surfaces, followed with tempering to get the ductility back (so they will not easily break).  

I think you'll find that the typical tempering temperature is around 400°F, same as the powder baking temperature. 

[Dans 68]

#4  I wouldn't risk heating up torsion bars in order to powder coat them. Too many unknowns that would have to be researched. All torsion bars are made of high strength steel, probably a 4140 or 4340 alloy steel, that is heat treated and quenched to achieve a desired hardness on their surfaces, followed with tempering to get the ductility back (so they will not easily break).  

I think you'll find that the typical tempering temperature is around 400°F, same as the powder baking temperature. 

John,

You are right in that the lower end of tempering takes place from 300 to 500 degrees fahrenheit. But, I still would not fool with heat treating after the fact any stressed parts. It probably would be just fine, as there are applications for double tempering to help transform any excess brittle martensite to the desired bainite or a combination of ferrite and cementite (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering for a quick explanation).    Myself, I would not do it.   

Dan

[bull]

No biggie either way. I can spray them and spend a lot less money.

[CB]

So Bull, you ordered the strut rods from XV or somewhere else?
You're going to replace everything (--> pitman) or clean up and re-use?
CB

[bull]

I bought a pair of American Muscle adjustable steel strut rods from member HPP. He said he used to deal parts and had them left over. I also bought a pair of LCA boxing plates and a bumper jack base wingnut from him.

Here's a list of what he has remaining:

$500.00 Wilwood brake kit; Dynalite calipers, pads, brackets, spindles
$200.00 Hurst Pistol Grip Shifter (1970-74 E-Body, 1971-74B-Body with Console) 
$65.00 alum shackle bushing set
$50.00 Super Bee Emblem — Grille (1969 Super Bee) 
$50.00 low deck big block tall throttle bracket
$50.00 360 tall throttle bracket
$50.00 W2 tall throttle bracket
$50.00 Abody  Lwr Cntrl arm poly pivot
$50.00 RB block tall throttle bracket
$50.00 axle tapered shim set
$45.00  cable style kickdownbracket
$40.00 T-bar removal tool
$30.00 C body washer bottle
$30.00 Hood Pin and Cable Kit 
$30.00 "440 6-bbl" Hood Decal
$30.00 Upper ball joint separator
$25.00 t-bar adjuster block/screw
$25.00 J bolt for gas tank straps
$25.00 8.75 pinion thrust washer kit
$24.00 BB chrome dist hold down
$20.00 Lower control arm bracing plate, A, B, E
$20.00 Lower control arm bracing plate, late B
$20.00 66-70 steering wheel assy
$20.00 67 GTX back up lenses
$20.00 big block throttle return set for tall linkage set
$15.00 Standing RR w/ helmet decal
$15.00 Porting Template big block— 2.08/1.74 Valve Size, Cast Iron Head
$10.00 340 main bearing set
$10.00 upper control arm cam bolt assy
$10.00 NOS heater hose bracket 67-68 big block w a/c
$10.00 3/8 tank filter sock
$10.00 74 Dart grill
$9.00 Red engine enamel
$5.00 74 Plymouth hub caps
$5.00 spare tire hold down wing nut
$5.00 universal ign wire loom
$5.00 thermostatic switch
$5.00 NOS big block throttle return spring
$5.00 OE ignition key blank
$3.00 valve lash decal
$3.00 Direct Connection large decal
$1.50 NOS SB exhaust manifold sleeve nuts
$1.00 NOS 5/16 corbin clamp
$1.00 NOS 3/8 corbin clamp

[HPP]

Hey Bull, glad your parts arrived.

I did sell the complete Wilwood kit from that list over the weekend, but I've got another set of Wilwood adapters available if any one is interested. I also have 6 more pairs of lower control arm plates too.

Yes, I used to resell parts pretty extensively at one time and I've cut back significantly on it to concentrate on building some of my cars now. But, I still have a few boxes of parts lying around. I've also had a few requests for some other American Muscle parts, so I'll check in with them and see if my account is still active. If it is, I may be able to pass along a few deals to other DC.com members.

TC