hemis don't have any low end power?

[69fuchs]

that is just plain b. s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6yiyjGssP0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM3-uZ_bTdo&feature=channel

[mauve66]

i'm confused , you get burning rubber into 2nd gear and Hemis have no low end??? what the ****

[Ghoste]

It isn't exactly that they have no low end, it's more that a well set up wedge can have more.  Remember the Hemi was set up for high rpm NASCAR all day at 180mph running so the cam profiles, giant valves and ports, big carbs and even some of the inherent physics behind the combustion chamber shape itself all lend themselves to the upper part of the powerband.  Think about all the areas where they were most successful; wide open stock car racing, Top Fuel that sort of thing.
And don't forget that when it came to the Street Hemi, it was basically out of tune when you got it.  It was a race engine that was strangled to make it live on the street.  Let it slide even a little and it became kind of gutless compared to a lot of other muscle engines.  Especially the many wedge engines that were passenger car mills hopped up to perform.  When those ones slid off their peak a bit they still at least could perform like a good passenger car engine.

[Go Hogs Go]

It isn't exactly that they have no low end, it's more that a well set up wedge can have more.  Remember the Hemi was set up for high rpm NASCAR all day at 180mph running so the cam profiles, giant valves and ports, big carbs and even some of the inherent physics behind the combustion chamber shape itself all lend themselves to the upper part of the powerband.  Think about all the areas where they were most successful; wide open stock car racing, Top Fuel that sort of thing.
And don't forget that when it came to the Street Hemi, it was basically out of tune when you got it.  It was a race engine that was strangled to make it live on the street.  Let it slide even a little and it became kind of gutless compared to a lot of other muscle engines.  Especially the many wedge engines that were passenger car mills hopped up to perform.  When those ones slid off their peak a bit they still at least could perform like a good passenger car engine.

This

[John_Kunkel]

some of the inherent physics behind the combustion chamber shape itself all lend themselves to the upper part of the powerband.  Think about all the areas where they were most successful; wide open stock car racing, Top Fuel that sort of thing.

Yep, some of us remember when these cars were new. Take two identical cars except for the motor and the 440 car would lead until the top end when the Hemi would breeze by.

[elacruze]

Hemis are not an inherently worse design for low rpm torque. Don't forget that the original hemis were not racing engines, they were developed to move big fat cars. That happens with torque.

The only theoretical advantage a wedge has over a hemi (True hemi, not compound combustion chamber) is that the wedge can have a quench area which produces turbulence and reduces detonation. OTOH a hemi can have a centrally located spark plug which achieves the same goal.

a more specific question must be asked, like 'Did a stock 440 4 barrel have more torque below 5000 rpm than a stock 426 4 barrel hemi?'
or 'Could a stock 426 hemi longblock make more torque and/or horsepower than a stock 426 wedge longblock, allowing intake exhaust piston and cam changes?'

If you had an engine building contest, I'd put my money on a 426 hemi in both torque and horsepower, as well as more torque under the curve, against a 426" wedge. I'd have a side bet that the hemi would make more torque at every point in the curve, too.

There are just too many variables to compare the fundamental designs in this context. Factory setups were not targeted to the same ends for the two engine types. (for the gen2 hemi)

[Ghoste]

Somewhat true but don't forget that when you go to the first gen Hemi to prove it's a general use passenger car engine and then cite the 440 versus a 426 Hemi you are also proving my point which was that the 426 Street Hemi was as we all know a detuned race engine and the 440 magnum was a strengthened passenger car engine.  As for the 426 wedge, it's aninteresting comparison but perhaps a better one might be the stroker kits that some of the aftermarket professional engine builders are offering such as Indy Cylinder Head or Muscle Motors.  Most of them seem to make a lot more power with their wedge kits in similar cid.
As for a dyno shootout between the two, don't forget the Hemi is limited in valve lift, cam profile, compression ratio and maximum rpm moreso than the wedge.  One of the reasons the Hemi excels in Top Fuel is the fact that it is supercharged.  Also remember that once they leave the dyno the Hemi has to compete in a real life situation where it must also use some of it's power to haul around it's heavier mass.
I won't even bring up cost.

[1970RT]

The only muscle car I've really drive is my 70 Charger R/T.  It runs great and everything but I was thinking it would absolutely shred the 225/70 R14 tires.  It will spin them if I try but I thought it would roast them and it really doenst.  3.23 sure grip all stock drivetrain.

[Charger-Bodie]

The only muscle car I've really drive is my 70 Charger R/T.  It runs great and everything but I was thinking it would absolutely shred the 225/70 R14 tires.  It will spin them if I try but I thought it would roast them and it really doenst.  3.23 sure grip all stock drivetrain.

What engine and transmission?

[mauve66]

The only muscle car I've really drive is my 70 Charger R/T.  It runs great and everything but I was thinking it would absolutely shred the 225/70 R14 tires.  It will spin them if I try but I thought it would roast them and it really doenst.  3.23 sure grip all stock drivetrain.

some of that will depend on width of tire , stickyness of tire, tune of motor, it should be a 440 or better since its an R/T, tune of tranny, are you just matting the pedal from a stop or winding it up first, then letting off the brake??

my fresh stock 383 rebuild w/ 3.23 suregrip would turn the tires half way to 2 nd gear then chirp 2nd, 440 has alot more torque, should be easy

[69fuchs]

I beat dozens of 440's in a 300 foot drag race at the coulee region mopar show 2 years ago.  Yes, I got the first place trophy

Last year a 500 inch edelbrock head road runner took my stock street hemi at the same race.  


On the drag strip, with gears and sticky tires the car has a 1.8 60 foot time with a stock street hemi/hemi converter.  That is a good # for any stock engine.....especially a big port pig.  Oh yea that is at 4100# about 200# heavier than a wedge!

[RD]

...Oh yea that is at 4100# about 200# heavier than a wedge!

dont know what wedge you are talking about, but my 71 Charger that I used to drag race was 3975lbs with all the original interior and dash out of it.  It was a wedge, had a stock converter (10 3/4"), 318 OEM leaf springs, a 4.56 742 case, and it ran 12.17 at 108 mph on 10.5 slicks.

440 .030 over, 6 pack pistons, tunnel ram, 2x4 600 eddy's, and 516 heads with big valves (no port work), all running through 2" hookers.  That was at 88 degrees and 55% humidity. at roughly 881 feet elevation.

i dont know what you are running, you havent said, but my 0 to 60 foot was 1.72.  100lbs is a tenth (roughly) in time.. so if you are close to me, awesome! if better, outstanding!!! if slower.. what say you?

[mally69]

 

[1970RT]

The only muscle car I've really drive is my 70 Charger R/T.  It runs great and everything but I was thinking it would absolutely shred the 225/70 R14 tires.  It will spin them if I try but I thought it would roast them and it really doenst.  3.23 sure grip all stock drivetrain.

What engine and transmission?

Original 440 4bbl 727.

As far as I know the 727 is all original except that I replaced the external seals when I had everything apart.  It works great.

The 440 has new rings/bearings and a new MP magnum restoration cam.  Valves were done in the heads.  Stock carb (rebuilt) and intake/exhaust manifolds.

It still has the original points dist.  I have a MP kit that I have been meaning to isntall so that might make a differnce.  The car runs great and it's not that it's gutless or anythign but I jsut expected it to smoke the tires a lot easier than it does.

This is a video of it:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx0yLyFq8z0

[1970RT]

The only muscle car I've really drive is my 70 Charger R/T.  It runs great and everything but I was thinking it would absolutely shred the 225/70 R14 tires.  It will spin them if I try but I thought it would roast them and it really doenst.  3.23 sure grip all stock drivetrain.

some of that will depend on width of tire , stickyness of tire, tune of motor, it should be a 440 or better since its an R/T, tune of tranny, are you just matting the pedal from a stop or winding it up first, then letting off the brake??

my fresh stock 383 rebuild w/ 3.23 suregrip would turn the tires half way to 2 nd gear then chirp 2nd, 440 has alot more torque, should be easy

I was thinking that from a slow roll, say 5 MPH I should be able to mash the gas and it should smoke the 225/70 R 14 BFG's.  In general it wont.  It doesnt bog or anything it just doesnt light them up except in really rare instances.  I dont do this very often because it's a pretty nice car with a # matching drivetrain but I cant resist doing it once in a while.

[tan top]

It isn't exactly that they have no low end, it's more that a well set up wedge can have more.  Remember the Hemi was set up for high rpm NASCAR all day at 180mph running so the cam profiles, giant valves and ports, big carbs and even some of the inherent physics behind the combustion chamber shape itself all lend themselves to the upper part of the powerband.  Think about all the areas where they were most successful; wide open stock car racing, Top Fuel that sort of thing.
And don't forget that when it came to the Street Hemi, it was basically out of tune when you got it.  It was a race engine that was strangled to make it live on the street.  Let it slide even a little and it became kind of gutless compared to a lot of other muscle engines.  Especially the many wedge engines that were passenger car mills hopped up to perform.  When those ones slid off their peak a bit they still at least could perform like a good passenger car engine.

true   read something about that on the super speedways , back in the day , think chrysler made the rods longer to help increase the torque , when coming off the corners..but still retained 426 ci, , shorter pistons i think 

[69fuchs]

...Oh yea that is at 4100# about 200# heavier than a wedge!

dont know what wedge you are talking about, but my 71 Charger that I used to drag race was 3975lbs with all the original interior and dash out of it.  It was a wedge, had a stock converter (10 3/4"), 318 OEM leaf springs, a 4.56 742 case, and it ran 12.17 at 108 mph on 10.5 slicks.

440 .030 over, 6 pack pistons, tunnel ram, 2x4 600 eddy's, and 516 heads with big valves (no port work), all running through 2" hookers.  That was at 88 degrees and 55% humidity. at roughly 881 feet elevation.

i dont know what you are running, you havent said, but my 0 to 60 foot was 1.72.  100lbs is a tenth (roughly) in time.. so if you are close to me, awesome! if better, outstanding!!! if slower.. what say you?

I run 12.8 @ 107.  race weight is 4120.  Stock cam, bore, compression, exhaust (2-1/4 tail pipes), All machine work done by chrysler in 1970 when the engine was cast.  The only engine mod is an m1 dual plane (crate engine intake) with a 750 ebrock.  The mph better with the stock intake and carbs(108)  but the et is best with the single 4bbl. 

I had the hemi in a 68 gtx first. 

The gtx had a stock 440 (original engine, very good running)  It weighed 3950 with a 440 and ran 14.5@95 mph with a pathetic 2.2 60ft (traction issues, 3.54 gears)

After I swapped in the hemi, (dead stock air cleaner to exhaust) the car weighed 4200.  It ran 13.05 at 108 (with good tires, but the same 3.54 gears)


Back to the charger:

In the 300 ft drag race, I beat every 440 I raced, many of them were faster cars (low 12, high 11 cars) but they couldn't hook on the track (the track is a circle track that we race the straight stretch with a pro tree)  The fact is, that I beat them in a short race. like it or not it is fact.

[RD]

we can argue semantics, but i was not there to see the races.  I dont know how well your track is prepped.

The fact that they could not get traction does not prove your point that your hemi can beat them in a 330 foot race, nor that it has the means to back up your initial argument that hemi's have equal or more output at the lower end than a wedge motor.  

Since you got traction and they didnt, would you have beat them if they did get traction off the launch?

take it to a track that is properly prepped and is a full drag strip, have video, then come back with your argument.

[69fuchs]

I like all mopar engines.  I have a 440 six pack, a 604 wedge, many 440's, 383's etc. 

I just have to smile when people that bench race try to educate the masses (saying hemis don't perform well on the street)  considering that mine has run great on the street since 1995.  I am not a pro engine builder with tricks up my sleeves.  It is not a fluke.  It is a real car that I drive.

  I am not the only one either.  There are 2 66 hemi satellites in my area that run just as good as my car, and they are both completely original, under 60k mile, never been apart cars.  One is an original owner, the other is a second owner (bought from the original owner 3 years ago) 

[RD]

dont get me wrong 69, i love hemi's and all other mopar engines just as well, i agree with you.  there are pro's and con's to each and every engine, especially in certain applications.

i would never kick a hemi out of my garage if i had one (God I hope i could afford to keep it!).

I think they are great engines, and some how i get suckered into these debates all teh time LOL... i love my wedges, but i think it maybe just because I have not been fortunate enough to afford a hemi, nor get to ride in a hemi powered vehicle (unless you count my 05 Dodge truck ).

anywho... its all good mate.

[69fuchs]

we can argue semantics, but i was not there to see the races.  I dont know how well your track is prepped.

The fact that they could not get traction does not prove your point that your hemi can beat them in a 330 foot race, nor that it has the means to back up your initial argument that hemi's have equal or more output at the lower end than a wedge motor.  

Since you got traction and they didnt, would you have beat them if they did get traction off the launch?

take it to a track that is properly prepped and is a full drag strip, have video, then come back with your argument.

I don't have to post a video, I have the trophy, and there were members of this site at the race.  If you can't put the power to the track, you lose. It is as simple as that.  I have never seen a "prepped track"  on the street, where low end power is supposed to be so important.  

Is that not what the debate is about?  Low end power is important on the street, and some say hemi's are terrible down low.  My experience has been otherwise, and I am sharing my experience.

[Charger-Bodie]

we can argue semantics, but i was not there to see the races.  I dont know how well your track is prepped.

The fact that they could not get traction does not prove your point that your hemi can beat them in a 330 foot race, nor that it has the means to back up your initial argument that hemi's have equal or more output at the lower end than a wedge motor.  

Since you got traction and they didnt, would you have beat them if they did get traction off the launch?

take it to a track that is properly prepped and is a full drag strip, have video, then come back with your argument.

I don't have to post a video, I have the trophy, and there were members of this site at the race.  If you can't put the power to the track, you lose. It is as simple as that.  I have never seen a "prepped track"  on the street, where low end power is supposed to be so important.  

Is that not what the debate is about?  Low end power is important on the street, and some say hemi's are terrible down low.  My experience has been otherwise, and I am sharing my experience.

Ive driven Arrons Hemi 68 Charger and I for one can attest to what he has said.....That car flat hauls!!

[elacruze]

Don't lose sight of the original question/statement. The discussion was about low RPM torque, which is not the same question as which engine/car hooks better in a given environment. Only an engine dyno knows for sure. I have many stories about 'the little engine that could' because that engine was better suited to the task at hand, not because it was more powerful. Victories are victories, and I'm not one to minimize or disregard them but they are not relevant to the question at hand.

we can argue semantics, but i was not there to see the races.  I dont know how well your track is prepped.

The fact that they could not get traction does not prove your point that your hemi can beat them in a 330 foot race, nor that it has the means to back up your initial argument that hemi's have equal or more output at the lower end than a wedge motor.  

Since you got traction and they didnt, would you have beat them if they did get traction off the launch?

take it to a track that is properly prepped and is a full drag strip, have video, then come back with your argument.

I don't have to post a video, I have the trophy, and there were members of this site at the race.  If you can't put the power to the track, you lose. It is as simple as that.  I have never seen a "prepped track"  on the street, where low end power is supposed to be so important.  

Is that not what the debate is about?  Low end power is important on the street, and some say hemi's are terrible down low.  My experience has been otherwise, and I am sharing my experience.

[68X426]

Only an engine dyno knows for sure.

You said it.

And everyone seems to be blurring the line between stock and modified.  Mopar for 68 claimed these stock numbers:

480 torque at 3200 rpm for the 440
490 torque at 4000 rpm for the 426

Can anyone really tell 10 pounds difference at say 3600? Between road noise, exhaust sounds, cams, and cheering, I can't tell a difference.

So only a dyno can tell once it's been modified. 

[G-man]

with 528 cubes of Hemi stuffed under your hood, with a mild street cam etc so the motor doesnt make power over 6000rpm, makes 500 ft/lbs from 1900rpm right through to 4500rpm.... I dont think low end torque is an issue.

Stock, hemis were made for races but if you go "Build" a hemi vs "Build" a wedge for street, either 1 can do it. Pick what you like and stick with it.

A wedge will never be a Hemi far as Im concerned.

[Hemidoug]

It isn't exactly that they have no low end, it's more that a well set up wedge can have more.  Remember the Hemi was set up for high rpm NASCAR all day at 180mph running so the cam profiles, giant valves and ports, big carbs and even some of the inherent physics behind the combustion chamber shape itself all lend themselves to the upper part of the powerband.  Think about all the areas where they were most successful; wide open stock car racing, Top Fuel that sort of thing.
And don't forget that when it came to the Street Hemi, it was basically out of tune when you got it.  It was a race engine that was strangled to make it live on the street.  Let it slide even a little and it became kind of gutless compared to a lot of other muscle engines.  Especially the many wedge engines that were passenger car mills hopped up to perform.  When those ones slid off their peak a bit they still at least could perform like a good passenger car engine.

What ju talkin' bout Willis?

Maybe someone needs a little spin in a certain 69 Charger?

In all seriousness....I start to make power at around 2k and it's like the energizer bunny after that ALLLLL the way to 6500....I'll trade the part below 2k for the part above 5k any day....

[Hemidoug]

we can argue semantics, but i was not there to see the races.  I dont know how well your track is prepped.

The fact that they could not get traction does not prove your point that your hemi can beat them in a 330 foot race, nor that it has the means to back up your initial argument that hemi's have equal or more output at the lower end than a wedge motor.  

Since you got traction and they didnt, would you have beat them if they did get traction off the launch?

take it to a track that is properly prepped and is a full drag strip, have video, then come back with your argument.

I don't have to post a video, I have the trophy, and there were members of this site at the race.  If you can't put the power to the track, you lose. It is as simple as that.  I have never seen a "prepped track"  on the street, where low end power is supposed to be so important.  

Is that not what the debate is about?  Low end power is important on the street, and some say hemi's are terrible down low.  My experience has been otherwise, and I am sharing my experience.

I think you are confusing the lack of bottom end torque in poorly tuned Hemis to all Hemis in general.....the Hemi is superior to a wedge in terms of the broad and steep torque curve, no question about it. However, a Hemi is MUCH more sensitive to TUNE then a wedge...and that is why some Hemis run like dogs....it takes attention to detail to make a Hemi run...but once it does there is nothing like it in the world....

[Ghoste]

However, a Hemi is MUCH more sensitive to TUNE then a wedge...and that is why some Hemis run like dogs....it takes attention to detail to make a Hemi run...but once it does there is nothing like it in the world....

THAT is what I was saying , I think you Hemi owners are reading me as dissing your engine and that isn't the case.  It was a race engine that Chrysler purposely made bad in order to operate on the street.  Let it slip even a little bit and it was a dog, a big dog.  The fact that you two guys have great running Hemi's is not a case for an argument, it's more a model for the dog ones to look up to.
And trust me, just because I don't OWN a Hemi does not mean for a single second that I don't have any experience with them.  I've driven them in a variety of body styles and status from Race Hemis to unrestored survivors and trailers queens.  I've driven them and been for many rides in them Doug, lots of them and trust me, the street ones aren't all world beaters.

[Hemidoug]

I was just bustin' on ya Ghost.....

[68X426]

I too have owned and driven them all. I own a Hemi today.

I think I hear the following: there are more top notch street 440's than there are street Hemi's. I'll agree. 

I think I hear: one can buy more street torque, at a better price, for the 440 than Hemi. I'll agree. 

And: it's a very high probability that a street 440 will be friendlier and an overall better performer than the street Hemi, (all else equal). I'll agree. 

IMO they are equal for real world torque in the majority of applications, and that was the original post issue. Is the design of the Hemi inherently superior on the 440? Yes. But design and results are different, so it still depends on how the motor is used and cared for.

Now, can't we all just get along? 

[Ghoste]

Doug, does that mean I can't get a ride in your car now?  

[John_Kunkel]

Back to the OP, Ghoste said it all in his first reply, everything else is just yada, yada, yada war stories.