Gluing on metal patches

cudaken · November 25, 2005, 07:58:29 PM

Steveca has been asking me to post about this in PM's so this is for you Steve.

My self I do not like to weld unless you have to. Welding can cause the following.

Wrappage from heat

Oxidation, other words rust if gas mix is not right

Fires, undercoating and sound deatners.

I have seen many cars in my years that where heavy hits come into my shop and it had rusted out around where the repairs had been done. More than likey gas mix was wrong, that is what Argone (spell check is for) to keep oxgen away from the heat. In fact, I had that happen on my Charger 13 years ago. Had my bodyman do one side and a friend that restores Mopars do the other side. Started to get a thin line of rust on both joints. I used Metal to Metal on the outer and inner seams, and under coated the the inside and painted. Well that has been fixed again and is holding fine now.

If I donot like weilding what do I like?

Steel rivets and glue!

Before you think I am a knuckel dragger I have my reasons and proof to back it up. First, did you know that most current cars have there skins on the doors and quarters glued on? Yep that is a fact folks, time moves on.

My Runner 1/4's where riveted on in 1985 or so. I used steel rivets and pull down harder than you can push down for the weld. Most people will rivet on and then weld anyway. Note I said steel and not aluminum rivets. Plus you can under coat the patch with melting or buring the undercoating or Expoy primer. You can spray primer on both side of the joint, but not undercoating due to the bulid up. After I get the panel where I want it, I start in the center and work my way out much like srewing on a head. I places the rivets about 3/4" a part. Metal will warp just a little, tap it down and insert a rivet. You will need to counter sink the metal and ground down the rivet heads. But you will need to do that with a Mig Weld anyway.

On gluing on a whole panel, well the instructions does say to tack weld here and there. But the same reason I like rivets applies to the glue as well. For patch panels like Front and Rear of wheel wells I do not see a need for the welds. I would not primer the joints with the glue.

At this point I am sure many will think I am a idot. But all I can say is more than one from the site has seen my Runner. For hanging on her for 20 years, no problems from the steel rivets.

Cuda Ken

my73charger · November 25, 2005, 11:02:24 PM

Actually this sounds like good advice to me. I am totally clueless on body work and my car will need some. Can you post any pics on the process?

Silver R/T · November 26, 2005, 12:37:05 AM

youre supposed to use weld-through primer when welding panels on

moparguy01 · November 26, 2005, 01:44:29 AM

i've read tests before that show the modern panel bonding ahesives will actually have the metal shear before the glue will give in stress tests. and since most cars nowadays are in fact glued together, i see absolutely no problem with using them. i guess i'll join the idiot club with ken. haha

8WHEELER · November 26, 2005, 02:24:28 AM

The body ''Man'' that worked on my blue 68 used a metal bond on the entire trunk pan, rear valance and corners. For the most part things look ok, but there are area's that are coming apart at the seams and rusting. I don't have an engine in it yet. He seems to have put a ton of this stuff, I was totally against doing it this way 4yrs ago when he did it but he talked me into using it. He did weld weld both the quarters on just over the top edge, both need more body work.

Ken I wish you lived closer, I would love for you to fix this car correctly. I had to get a bunch of buddy's together and bring this car home a year and a half ago. He told me the car would be done in less than a year, 3-1/2yrs later it had spent almost 2yrs out side in the rain during the resto, and after the second ''BAD'' paint job.

I have been told the quarters should come back off. A friend can stick his fingure along side where the quarter meets the trunk, and I can see his hole fingure coming through into the trunk while looking in the trunk

this happens in several area's.

Dan

cudaken · November 26, 2005, 09:20:33 AM

Dan, in the second PIC that gap could have been there if glued or welded. Well, I guess it could have been filled with wire. It should have been seam sealed before paint. As far as the quarter, with oput a PIC I cannot tell what happen. Was the repair left bare while sitting out side?

Moparguy01, I seen that test and metal did tear before the glue. When I first read about the glue say 8 years ago I was laughing my ass off. If Allen lets me, I will glue on his repair panels on his Challenger.

Silver R/T, I tried the weld thru primer. Maybe I did something wrong but it smoked like hell and weld was weak.

My73charger, I will be post some PIC of the rivets in the furture. Believe it or not, I was taught about the rivets when I was going to Body School.

I know it shoulds like a knuckel dragger thing, but when done right you be shocked on well it works. Quarter panels have not fell off my Road Runner in 20 years is all I can say.

Cuda Ken

CB · November 26, 2005, 10:15:54 AM

rivets doesn't sound idiotic to me.
Same idea as spot welds, right?

cudaken · November 26, 2005, 10:56:18 AM

Yep CB, same thing with out the heat.

Ken

Ghoste · November 26, 2005, 11:05:43 AM

And I'm not a bodyman by any stretch, but as a bodywork forum lurker and ex-welder, I'll take the adhesive fumes over welding fumes any day. They are both bad for you but the welding one is worse and harder to control. In my opinion anyway.

cudaken · November 26, 2005, 08:48:40 PM

Ghoste, glue does stink and for sometime as well. 41 Husk has given me permission to glue on his panels, well I think he did.

Looked at me like I was nuts when I was talking about the rivets. Don't think he will let me do that to his Challenager.

Cuda Ken

Ghoste · November 26, 2005, 11:35:22 PM

Oh yeah, I didn't mean that it didn't stink. It's just so much harder to wear a respirator under that welding helmet and that crap just curls in there. With both of them you get to deal with voc's but the welding will add some other toxic goodies to the mix.
The bottom line is that both methods are slow death by chemical. But I still don't wanna weld no mo' dammit!

sthemi · November 27, 2005, 02:33:49 AM

3M makes some steel adhesive that is stronger than the base metal. You could glue on a panel if you wanted to. It would still need to be totally raw, no paint in the joint area to start with..Then it will rust thru again.
I think that welding is fine as long as the welded area is finished off with lead and then topcaoted with a filler.

Ghoste · November 27, 2005, 09:59:16 AM

Slowly but surely, there aren't any guys left who can work with lead. In Ontario (Canader)I don't think they can even get it anymore. Some places use Kevlar where they used to use lead.

cudaken · November 27, 2005, 10:26:53 AM

Working lead is all most a lost art. Try going to a parts store and ask for some butter and see the blanks stares you will get

Sthemi, that I why I like the rivets, I can epoxy prime the new panel and the old panel.

Cuda Ken

haueter66 · November 27, 2005, 04:16:55 PM

I watched a demo with that stuff ... the guy glued two pieces of sheetmetal together and then put it in a frame machine and started pulling... guess what the 14 gauge metal tore!!! the bond never broke... its the new technology man... nothing wrong with that!

cudaken · November 27, 2005, 08:00:54 PM

I did the same thing about 25 years ago with steel rivets while I was in school. Rivets started to give out around 1.5 tons. Think about that, are you going to hanging 3000 pound of a repair you did?

Cuda Ken

41husk · November 28, 2005, 12:34:46 PM

When my patch pannels come in, Ken can take some pictures of the process, it sounds logical

ipstrategies · November 28, 2005, 02:25:38 PM

I can't wait to see the pics of this. This may be the same route I go. Ken I am still planning on calling it has been busy.

41husk · November 29, 2005, 09:32:24 AM

year one box on the portch, I'm guessing my pannels are here

Drop Top · November 29, 2005, 10:25:55 AM

Call me old fashion if you want too. I have used the glue with sucsess. But I still will do the most part of my repairs with my little gas welder. When done right. It won't warp the metal, thats why its called hammer welding. Its easier to grind then any kind of wire feed welder and you don't have to worry about rusting around the welded areas eather. I guess its a mater of skill and braging rights. When I do use a wire feed I use argon and after grinding the weld. I clean up all around the welded area with a finishing fiber wheel. I have never yet had a problem with rusting latter down the road.

As far as leading. I still do that also. But only for the people that insist on it. My mentor Bill Cushenbery would probley still be alive today if it weren't for lead. When I do use lead, I always use a good quality mask. If used the right way you should not have to put any filler over it afterwords. Thats what lead is, a filler. It was used before plastic filler waas invented. If you can't use lead the right way don't use it at all. Besides Its hard to find all the stuff you need. Unless you have an Eastwoods Catalog. But they are too expensive.

Ken knows what he is doing with this kind of thing. He uses it everyday in his real job. For those that are doing it for the first time. You will need the right tools for the job. (Witch he has.) You might think about haveing it done by a profesonal. There are guide lines that need to be fallowed closely for it to work right. I grant you, it is much easier then welding. But just like welding there is a learning curve. So if you have never done this kind of thing. Please fallow the directions closley. I hate to see your 1/4 panel laying on the side of the road.

One question? If the glue is so good why do you need to use rivets? I would think it would be strong enough with out them. When I do use glue. I use clamps and long slats of wood to keep in place entill its cured. This way there is less warping from the rivets clamping down. Maybe I do things a little harder then most. But I beleave that if you do things right in each step. The next step becomes easier. The easier each step is the faster it becomes. The faster it becomes the cheaper it really is for the customer. Basiclly I guess I'm saying, don't use the rivets enless you really have to. Yes. I have some really Long selfmade clamps.

nh_mopar_fan · November 29, 2005, 02:22:47 PM

Ken,

what's your opinion on the clamps as DropTop suggested? I was thinking of going that way myself.

Thanks!

cudaken · November 29, 2005, 07:50:01 PM

First nh_mopar_fan last thing I would ever do is say Drop Top is wrong. I know for a fact he could teach me stuff I don't know, but I could show him one or two tricks my self. He restores cars, I repair cars. I can make them look good, well great but I know he does better work then I at this point know how to do. Fact he still use gas shows he is more a artiest than a repair center. Only time I see gas used in a shop now is to whack things off.

Drop Top, to be honest I have not used rivets for ever. I just want the guys here to know they don't need to be brain surgens to fix there own cars. Rivet gun (will bulid your forearm's) and rivets cost say $30.00 Max unless it is Snap On

That is a prices everyone here can afford.

Using rivets with glue, well Drop Top you hit the rivet on the head!

My longest clamp is a mer 20", that will not work on a lower part of a panel. Many shops use the rivets beside me.

Glad to see you answer my post. Feel free to give tips, I also still have things to learn.

Ken

PS, got the guns cleaned with out the Carb cleaner.

cudaken · November 29, 2005, 07:54:52 PM

Oh, Top. I drill out the rivets when I use glue, it just to hold the panel tight while the goo sets up. Fill the holes with Metal to Metal.

Ken

AirborneSilva · November 29, 2005, 09:58:21 PM

Hey Ken, when you were talking to me about the gluing on the phone I was wondering if you hadn't inhaled too much of that primer

but it is certainly sounding more and more the way I need to go for my repairs. I can't wait to see some pictures here, I'm trying to figure out if you butt the two peices together or if you make a lap joint (I think lap joint is the correct terminology

), anyway, I really enjoy your how to's and look forward to reading them... Thanks for taking the time Ken.

bull · November 30, 2005, 08:12:20 AM

I'm a little dense so bear with me. Maybe I missed it but what about the overlap? Aren't you going to have one edge of the panel higher than the other, or do you rivit to something else?

Drop Top · November 30, 2005, 11:18:02 AM

When useing glue you will need to step the seam area that is going to be glued. That way you will not have a raised area on the 1/4. There are many differant type of tools available to do this with. From hand to air operated. I'm sure Ken can elaborate on this.

Ken I'm glad to hear that you don't leave the rivets in. That makes me feel much better. Try useing Kleek-Os (I think thats how you spell it) instead of rivets. That way you wont have to drill the rivets out latter. There also much easier to put in or take out. It will make your job go much faster. Time is money.

I'm also glad to hear that you got your guns clean. I was hopeing that the tip I gave you worked out.

Troy · November 30, 2005, 01:12:18 PM

They are spelled "Cleco" in case anyone wants to search. They are like mini clamps that usually fit through a drilled hole. You can install and remove them quickly and easily. They are commonly used in the aircraft and race car industries. The fasteners look like this:

Troy

cudaken · November 30, 2005, 06:20:22 PM

Tony that is the correct term. Maybe drop top can help me on this one. Top, can you list a part number or so a PIC of the flanger you use? I have one that is ran by a air hammer and hand held and both blow. Does not make a crisp over lap.

Rivets can still be used with out the glue. Just grind the head down some, sink a little with a pick hammer and have at it.

Cuda Ken

AirborneSilva · November 30, 2005, 07:45:22 PM

With the lap joint and glue it is begining to make more sense now (ok, so I'm slow

).....

Drop Top · December 01, 2005, 10:45:04 AM

I bought an air operated one from Harbor Freight a long time ago. It has a hole punch on one end and the flanger on the other. The hole is the perfect size for a Cleco (Thanks Troy). The part number is no longer on it. I haven't seen it there for some time though. It does ok But you still have to do some work by hand on the corners. It also distorted the metal a bit more then I liked. For the corners, I made a hand flanger out of a set of vise grips and hard steal. It actually makes a better flange. But you need very strong hands if the metal is too thick or if you have a big area to do. Sorry I don't have a way to put up pictures. Check out Eastwood Catalog. I think they sell some kind of flanger. One that dosen't work very well is better then not haveing one at all. I also have a bead roller I bought from Harbor Freight for around $100 on sale. It has a set of flanger wheels with it. You can flange it on the patch panel with that. But that way is a little tuffer to work with. You would have to come in from the back side and thats not always posable.

cudaken · December 02, 2005, 07:39:42 AM

I was looking on Habor Freight and could not find a flanger or the bead roller. Might take a run down there and take a peek.

One slick trick I was done was to weld or in this case glue a pices of metal stock behinde the repair area. Roy used a pices that was about 1/8 thick, 2" wide and cut to lenght of the repair. In this case it was the lower part rear of the wheel well 66 Charger. He installed it where 1" was hanging below where he cut the old panel. Repair pices was cut to where it butted up to but did not touch the orginal panel. Roy was using a panel spotter and welded the new part to the metal strip he attached to the quarter panel. Both panels where flush.

Bottom line, counter sinking does make for less filler work, but good results can still be had with out doing it. 98.5% of the time you can worked the filler out to where you cannot tell where the seam was.

Cuda Ken

Troy · December 02, 2005, 08:48:12 AM

Here's the flange tool at Harbor Freight.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=41696

I have one of these as well. The first one I bought would only make two cycles and then give up for several minutes so I took it back for an exchange. The new one works pretty good all the time. Either one worked better than me doing it by hand. Not a bad tool for $25. I'll post some pics of what it does when I get home.

Troy

Charger_Fan · December 02, 2005, 12:47:22 PM

So, when you glue on these panels, do you have to make sure you wipe up any glue that squeezes out before it cures, or will it sand off if you find some you missed?

Drop Top · December 02, 2005, 07:08:21 PM

The best way is to wipe up the excess when its still soft. But after it cures. You can grind/sand it off.

cudaken · December 03, 2005, 06:38:50 PM

Troy, thank you for the link. I spent a hour looking for that darn thing the other day!

Now if you can find the hand held type that would be great.

Drop Top, is that the one you have?

Cuda Ken

Troy · December 03, 2005, 07:26:25 PM

Quote from: cudaken on December 03, 2005, 06:38:50 PM
Troy, thank you for the link. I spent a hour looking for that darn thing the other day!
Now if you can find the hand held type that would be great.

Drop Top, is that the one you have?

Cuda Ken

Here you go:
http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=HTP12005&Category_Code=HT
http://www.htpweld.com/products/metal_working_tools/

Lots of stuff at Eastwood:
Panel Flanger
Flanger And Hole Punch Combination Tool
Flanger Roller Deluxe
Flanger And Dimpler Set
No Weld Panel Repair Kit
Cleco Panel Holding System

Troy

Drop Top · December 04, 2005, 09:10:52 PM

Leave it to Troy.

The combination Flanger and Hole punch is the one I have. I have seen someone else use the Flanger Roller tool before. It works OK in some applications.

Heck just get them all. You know the old saying. "You can never have too many tools".

haueter66 · December 05, 2005, 05:32:43 PM

yeah if you get the most before you die you win! woot

Old Moparz · December 06, 2005, 04:10:21 PM

Hey CudaKen,

This topic was at Moparts a while back & they stuck in the archives. Here's the link if anyone wants to read over it. I read it with a lot of interest last year so it's good to hear others are doing it too.

Bob

http://www.moparts.com/Tech/Archive/paint/13.html

Blown70 · December 06, 2005, 04:30:28 PM

Quote from: cudaken on December 02, 2005, 07:39:42 AM
I was looking on Habor Freight and could not find a flanger or the bead roller. Might take a run down there and take a peek.

One slick trick I was done was to weld or in this case glue a pices of metal stock behinde the repair area. Roy used a pices that was about 1/8 thick, 2" wide and cut to lenght of the repair. In this case it was the lower part rear of the wheel well 66 Charger. He installed it where 1" was hanging below where he cut the old panel. Repair pices was cut to where it butted up to but did not touch the orginal panel. Roy was using a panel spotter and welded the new part to the metal strip he attached to the quarter panel. Both panels where flush.

Bottom line, counter sinking does make for less filler work, but good results can still be had with out doing it. 98.5% of the time you can worked the filler out to where you cannot tell where the seam was.

Cuda Ken

I purchased one 2 weeks ago at harbor freight. Had 4-5 dies with it. One set was for flanging. Was on sale for $100 and will bead up a depth of 18 inches. or so.

Tom

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Gluing on metal patches