Pro Touring Charger 68/69

[Rolling_Thunder]

you can get slotted 11.75" rotors and adapters to run the Viper spec 4-piston Brembo calipers...   that should be plenty for what you want to do - plus they are still over the counter parts.   

[NYCMille]

Bill Howell - I'm not sure if I ever commented on your car, but let me just say that I have been following your build since day one and I truly think you nailed it. Perfect color choices, the wheels are tits and overall look and feel is REALLY aggressive but not overdone, simply a beautiful car.

Pro-touring:
When I build a car I always ask myself a few questions BEFORE I even put out dollar one.
- What am I going to do with this car?
- Will it be 90% street, 10% track or vice versa or somewhere in between?
- Will it simply be a daily driver?
- Where, for the dollars I've allocated to the project, will that money go and how will it be best spent?
- WHY am I building this car?

You can absolutely build a great handling, great stopping automobile without going crazy, the secret is going with proven parts that are proven to work with the combination you've chosen.

Example, when I did all the mods to the Charger 4 years ago, the formula was pretty aggressive. Today, it's considered to be very mild. We, upped the ante' a bit with the Daytona, but again, didn't go overly crazy. We looked at the Charger's short comings and modified the formula - same thing will happen with the next car. It's all "Live and Learn".

[Brock Samson]

  "Next Car"?... 

[elacruze]

you can get slotted 11.75" rotors and adapters to run the Viper spec 4-piston Brembo calipers...   that should be plenty for what you want to do - plus they are still over the counter parts.    

Aaarrrgg.

Yeah, I know. But they add cost (weak argument at this point) and the brackets themselves are not shelf items.
What if I hit a Jackrabbit or tumbleweed hard enough to bend one?  
Seriously, I even took fender-benders into account when putting this package together. Once this Endless Summer is past, she'll get more upgrades.
I'm a firm believer in seeing both ends of the track at the same speed.

Kick me in the pants, I don't remember what brand-Powerslot maybe-I do have slotted cryo-treated rotors.

[Mike DC]

 

You can absolutely build a great-stopping, great-handling vehicle without going crazy.  The secret is going with proven parts that are proven to work with the combination you've chosen.

Amen. 


IMHO radical mods have their place, but they're not a necessity just to get a decent improvement over a stock setup.

[HPP]

While going to 17" or bigger wheels does open up some tires choices and does make it easy to get big rotors in the wheel, I wouldn't say it is a requirement for performance braking. I think most would agree that vintage trans am or even late model stock cars all have braking capabilities that far exceed most of our street cars, yet they do it all with 15" rims. Nothing real trick about their set ups, but they do put some thought in to component selection, material maximization, and cooling. I'm also willing to bet they spend a fair bit more for that performance than most street car owners are willing to do. So I guess like most things it comes down to a balancing act of intended application against available budget and in the case of competition, prevailing rules.

[Mike DC]

 
Yeah, there are some huge brakes jammed into 15" rims in the performance world.  NASCARS are literally hauling themselves down from 180mph for hours using brakes that fit inside 15" rims. 



However those setups look like a pretty serious effort though. They've crammed all that brake hardware into the rim, but the brakes aren't exactly liking it that way. 

The extra space of a 17" rim means there's way more cooling air reaching the rotors.  And it also gives the calipers more stopping leverage when the pads clamp onto the rotor farther out from the center of the wheel.

[Blown70]

Reminds me of a saying,   " anything can be done, how much do you want to spend?"

[G-man]

I myself will be doing the NASCAR break setup 12.19" rotors on the 15" rims. THats plenty break for the street if you ask me. Big profile tyre = good bite when the light goes green 

Any flying corners on the street and you shouldnt be diriving, so unless your going to the track, big rims etc is a waste. Thats how i decided to forget the handling of the car. Where the car handles (race track) I wont be going and on the street to be doing fast corners to need handling, you shouldnt even have a license.

[Bill Howell]

elacruze- there a lot of wheel choices out there. Evod has offered a couple times to build me Rally wheels in larger sizes, and I love those wheels. We just never have come up with a drawing I felt was dead on just larger. Their machinist now is Mike, the guy that was on Boyd Coddington's show for so long. One day I may go with them for a set. CCW makes a great selection of wheels reasonably priced, Jason Rushforth has a nice line. Now, they won't be at steel wheel prices, but you don't have to buy three piece 20s either. Wheels are one of the most important things that may a car have "THE LOOK"  IMO. You have to really look at different options and think about it, it can not be a quick rash decision.
Mr. Angry-Thanks for the kind words, coming from you that means alot. You know me from other forums and know this car WILL see plenty of road miles, not just another pretty trailor queen. We are still tuning on the suspension, changing springs, etc in prep for RTTHs next weekend. That will be the first time it will be seen, and I want to make a great first impression. Bad Penny is here in my shop tonight, and I would love nothing better than to run with it on the autocross.

I read thru the other comments since my last post. One thing to bear in mind, NASCAR uses different material entirely as far as their brakes go, so hard to compare them with street setups. Those brakes love heat and are designed for it, however they would be worthless on the street. They would never get hot enough to stop your street car on the highway. Also, they use race tires, as did the trans am series back in the day. One thing the protouring guys demand is first the car is a street car, then race car, so we require at least DOT even when running on the tract, and usually at least a 200 Treadwear. It is hard to compare that tire with a all out race tire, but remember we are about driving to and from the tract. That is why Hot Rod is so interested in the cross country trip we are doing at SEMA time and Optima challenge.

[elacruze]

Fortunately for me, I have a set of E-T slots which I bought NOS in about 1988, with BFG T/As which will roll just fine until I decide something else. I have nothing but time, I won't even see the car again until next July or so.

EVOD-WOW! Not for me, but man is that some precious jewelry.

After I do some searches to be sure I'm not just repeating, I may post up more on brakes in the appropriate forum.

[HPP]

The nascar set ups really aren't that radically different. The two biggest differences are rotor material, steel vs iron, and pad compound choice. However, if you look through the pad selection offered by any of nascar providers (wilwood, red evil, us brake, etc), you'll notice they have compounds that work as low at 600-800 degrees, which wouldn't be too awful for the street. Yes, the first few stops of the day would feel awfully slick, but after that they would start to grip well. But digging further into their choices you find the 1000, 1200, and 1400 degree compounds, and you can forget about street grip.

Also notice they use a considerable amount of ducting to force air into those puppies to help out as well. I think this is something 99.9% of street drivers never consider, much less do, but it isn't too difficult to accomplish with a little bit of fore thought and work.

Yes, race tires also accomplish HUGE amounts of grip, not just for acceleration but also braking, which is where the 17" will have a slight advantage over the 15". There are more 17" choices with more grip for less money than 15" tires. However, for the right coin, there are H,V, and even Z rated 15" tires that are d.o.t. approved and grip like race tires. Expect to spend $250-400 per tire for those though. Suddenly the $2000 spent for 17" wheels to get $175 tires look like a bargain after about the second set of rubber goes on.

[Armudster]

The nascar set ups really aren't that radically different. The two biggest differences are rotor material, steel vs iron, and pad compound choice. However, if you look through the pad selection offered by any of nascar providers (wilwood, red evil, us brake, etc), you'll notice they have compounds that work as low at 600-800 degrees, which wouldn't be too awful for the street. Yes, the first few stops of the day would feel awfully slick, but after that they would start to grip well. But digging further into their choices you find the 1000, 1200, and 1400 degree compounds, and you can forget about street grip.

Also notice they use a considerable amount of ducting to force air into those puppies to help out as well. I think this is something 99.9% of street drivers never consider, much less do, but it isn't too difficult to accomplish with a little bit of fore thought and work.

Yes, race tires also accomplish HUGE amounts of grip, not just for acceleration but also braking, which is where the 17" will have a slight advantage over the 15". There are more 17" choices with more grip for less money than 15" tires. However, for the right coin, there are H,V, and even Z rated 15" tires that are d.o.t. approved and grip like race tires. Expect to spend $250-400 per tire for those though. Suddenly the $2000 spent for 17" wheels to get $175 tires look like a bargain after about the second set of rubber goes on.

Please tell me more about them, ehat brands, and what sizes are they available, I have nothing against 16-18 wheel as long as tastefullky done, but it´s just not for me, I am a 15" guy myself, I would totally be inter4sted on building a 68 Charger with 15"s and full pro touring goodies, but everything hidden, of course!!!

[HPP]

Assuming you mean the tires, check these out. Most, but not all, of them have d.o.t. approval. All of them are for race applications, but are similar to the d.o.t. drag tires. Only these are made for handling applications.

Hoosier and Avon d.o.t. approved tires and Goodyear, Dunlap and Avon race tires;
http://www.rogerkrausracing.net/files/34176795.pdf

This is probably the newest technology 15" tire widely available;
http://www.mickeythompsontires.com/street.php?item=SportsmanSR

Well performing tires that are not very well known. These are d.o.t. approved race tires,
http://www.americanraceronline.com/racing-tires/passenger.html

One of the biggest secrets in racing, tires with built in camber. These guys offer full out racing slicks to a variety of vintage and historic tires, and d.o.t. cased tires. Finding distributors can be a problem though.
http://www.towelcityracingtires.com/

[MSRacing89]

Bill Howell - I'm not sure if I ever commented on your car, but let me just say that I have been following your build since day one and I truly think you nailed it. Perfect color choices, the wheels are tits and overall look and feel is REALLY aggressive but not overdone, simply a beautiful car.

Pro-touring:
When I build a car I always ask myself a few questions BEFORE I even put out dollar one.
- What am I going to do with this car?
- Will it be 90% street, 10% track or vice versa or somewhere in between?
- Will it simply be a daily driver?
- Where, for the dollars I've allocated to the project, will that money go and how will it be best spent?
- WHY am I building this car?

You can absolutely build a great handling, great stopping automobile without going crazy, the secret is going with proven parts that are proven to work with the combination you've chosen.

Example, when I did all the mods to the Charger 4 years ago, the formula was pretty aggressive. Today, it's considered to be very mild. We, upped the ante' a bit with the Daytona, but again, didn't go overly crazy. We looked at the Charger's short comings and modified the formula - same thing will happen with the next car. It's all "Live and Learn".

Lets be honest Mike, this is the wrong website for these type of discussions.

[Troy]

Bill Howell - I'm not sure if I ever commented on your car, but let me just say that I have been following your build since day one and I truly think you nailed it. Perfect color choices, the wheels are tits and overall look and feel is REALLY aggressive but not overdone, simply a beautiful car.

Pro-touring:
When I build a car I always ask myself a few questions BEFORE I even put out dollar one.
- What am I going to do with this car?
- Will it be 90% street, 10% track or vice versa or somewhere in between?
- Will it simply be a daily driver?
- Where, for the dollars I've allocated to the project, will that money go and how will it be best spent?
- WHY am I building this car?

You can absolutely build a great handling, great stopping automobile without going crazy, the secret is going with proven parts that are proven to work with the combination you've chosen.

Example, when I did all the mods to the Charger 4 years ago, the formula was pretty aggressive. Today, it's considered to be very mild. We, upped the ante' a bit with the Daytona, but again, didn't go overly crazy. We looked at the Charger's short comings and modified the formula - same thing will happen with the next car. It's all "Live and Learn".

Lets be honest Mike, this is the wrong website for these type of discussions.

Why?

Troy

[MSRacing89]

These threads inevitably get disrupted by the guys that do not like these types of builds.  Just got old for me.  So I go to where you can gain the knowledge of the subject and also provide it.......much more productive.

For what its worth, there is a wealth of knowledge here also in plenty of other areas.

[elacruze]

...I go to where you can gain the knowledge of the subject and also provide it...

Where's that?

FWIW, I love my Charger. It's the best one in the world. 
Don't you feel that way about your own? I would be totally CRUSHED if I discovered that all the time I spent considering my combinations and thinking about what to do with it turned out to be just the same as everyone else's... I absolutely love to see and read about everyone else's cars, because their differences help me make decisions about my own. To each their own, I say, and nobody's personal enjoyment hinges on my approval of their build, no matter what style that is.
I already know my build. I don't know everything though, so every time I see somebody else do something I didn't, I learn something.

[autodynamics]

Bill Howell - I'm not sure if I ever commented on your car, but let me just say that I have been following your build since day one and I truly think you nailed it. Perfect color choices, the wheels are tits and overall look and feel is REALLY aggressive but not overdone, simply a beautiful car.

Pro-touring:
When I build a car I always ask myself a few questions BEFORE I even put out dollar one.
- What am I going to do with this car?
- Will it be 90% street, 10% track or vice versa or somewhere in between?
- Will it simply be a daily driver?
- Where, for the dollars I've allocated to the project, will that money go and how will it be best spent?
- WHY am I building this car?

You can absolutely build a great handling, great stopping automobile without going crazy, the secret is going with proven parts that are proven to work with the combination you've chosen.

Example, when I did all the mods to the Charger 4 years ago, the formula was pretty aggressive. Today, it's considered to be very mild. We, upped the ante' a bit with the Daytona, but again, didn't go overly crazy. We looked at the Charger's short comings and modified the formula - same thing will happen with the next car. It's all "Live and Learn".

Lets be honest Mike, this is the wrong website for these type of discussions.

let me chime in here..............

i agree that d/c is NOT the place for a pro-touring machine or a "modified machine". Members here prefer a car that has "original" brakes, suspension, tires wheels and so on. We G Machiners love to drive our cars but in today's standards. who here doesn't like a car so stop not good but exceptional? or accelerate not good but great and handle really well and have all the modern amenities of a modern day car. we all agree stock is nice, but realistically  we don't like 40 yr old technology in anything. i agree that there is a wealth of info here from old members to new school guys like myself. if you ask the right questions you will get answers....some of which your not going to like.  do your research here and other places there is allot you can do to these mopars. and when done well you will enjoy them better than ever. read poke ask plenty of questions there are plenty of guys here willing to help... TO MY FELLOW PRO-TOURING MEMBERS.....CHEERS TO YOU GUYS YOU'VE MADE OUR HOBBY ENJOYABLE
hammer down fellas see you on the road...blazing the pavement.......

[Back N Black]

I would say that any charger is welcome on the site, General Lee,old school,factory restorations,pro touring and whatever configuration that's out there.Not everyone is going to like all styles of restoration but no reason not to feel welcome. I have a black charger and i know not everyone likes black. 

[kcederwall08]

While my car isn't exactly a pro-touring car yet, It definitely resembles one as of now. I haven't gotten any negative comments from anyone on this forum yet about the styling of my car. While this may not be the place to look for your custom one off technical problems, it still has a ton of information that you can use. Even If you car totally custom, there are still things that this forum could help you with. Most people here are pretty tolerant from what I have seen.

[Mike DC]

IMHO Pro Touring Chargers should get the same treatment given to GLs or Pro Street cars or any other variation  - it's fine to talk about it here sometimes.  Just be willing to take some disagreement in stride, and don't clog up the forums for everyone else with too many threads about it at once.

[G-man]

If its a Charger 66-74 its welcome, any sort of build as mike has stated.

1 Thing I have learnt in my search for a guitar to suit my needs is this...

some shop owners/workers who also play guitar last 20-30 years down here in Australia will say and have said countless times "Maton (the guitar brand tommy emmanuel uses) is absolutely rubbish, they have no sound, they are poorly built etc you need to buy Martin's or Taylors.

Well big question is Why is the Best g uitarist in the world using a rubbish guitar then? Obviously it does what he needs as a player.

Sound is subjective, people say blackwood is total garbage others say maple is and others say rosewood is.

Some like round girls   some like slim girls others like them slightly built (gym girls *wink*)


The point here is that everyone will have an opinion. I say tall wheels are not good because a muscle car should look aggressive/tough, thats a 15" wheel. I also say to keep to that you need them nice and fat which means you need to mini tub the car to give the car the maximum "tough - Hulk" look.

Others will say "Yeah but 15" wheels cant break propperly and a lowered car with 17" wheels looks pro-touring, something that can handle any day of the week, so 15" wheels are pointless in todays environment"

Well...

Blonde, brunette or red head?

You get the idea.

There is no 1 fits all. Some like something, others like something else.

What I did learn however is, you cant go bad mouth another style of build simply because its not you. Thats like the shop owner bad mouthing Maton and yet the best guitarist in the world that does 320+ Shows per year (thats almost 7 days a week playing non stop) uses MATON, why the hell would he if it did suck? Yet the guy bad mouthing doesnt even do concerts or even close to as good a player as Tommy so who is he to bad mouth what the best player uses? However Maton isnt for everyone (like its not for me).

So, build what you like, to 1 man a 100 dollar guitar may sound 'exactly' how he wanted while another wont find the sound he wants till he spends 10 000. Is the 10k better? Not to the man that likes the sound of a $100 guitar.

Build what you like, stock, modified, pro stock, pro-touring, G-machine, 200 000 dollar car or 50 000 car. What suits you is the best. Opinions in the end mean nothing. If I buy a guitar based on what someone else says 'sounds tonaly correct' i will end up not happy with it. Thats why i have my "own ears" to hear what "I like". You have your own 'eyes' to see what you like. What you like, what your eyes say is beautiful, thats what you build and all else means nothing.

And the last thing I have figured is, if a question is asked about pro-touring build and the person replying isnt replying to answer the question asked as he doesnt know anything about it, just replying to say "thats a bad idea", yeah says who, you? shouldnt even reply as its nothing to do with what was asked.

Find what you like the look of and do it (ofcourse if something you like is actualy dangerous, then people should warn you why not to go that way and try be helpfull explaining things not just its bad looks horrible to me dont do it - educated reasons not personal taste opinions)

I say Ferrari is rubbish because it looks totaly retarded in the front, but its $300 000 dollar car. I say a 68 Dodge Charger is 'way better' (20 000 dollar car) than a Ferrari. So Mr rich man dont waste your money on a ferrari.

U see how things will work out if u went off opinions?

[autodynamics]

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

I have not gotten any negative comments about my Pro-Touring Charger yet...    except the fact it is not on the road yet   haha