Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !

[hemi354az]

Pump Test #6 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 3.890", 8 blades, stamped sheet metal, tested with Machined T-stat well housing (Same as Test #1).
RPM         GPM
1000         <5
1500        14.0
2000        19.0
2500        25.0
3000        30.0
3500        32.0

Nothing special. Lou.

[hemi354az]

Pump Test #7 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 4.367", 10 blades, Plastic with reverse curved blades, tested with Machined T-stat well housing (Same as Test #1).
RPM         GPM
1000         7.0
1500        17.0
2000        22.0
2500        28.0
3000        32.0
3500        31.5

Great surface finish on this PLASTIC impeller that has the blades curving the opposite direction of typical CCW (sitting in the Driver's seat) pump direction. Compare with Test #10 which is same plastic impeller with the blades curved the "correct (?)" way for CCW rotation. Lou.

[hemi354az]

Pump Test #9 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 4.380", 8 blades, cast Iron, tested with Machined T-stat well housing (Same as Test #1).
RPM         GPM
1000        15.5
1500        20.0
2000        26.0
2500        33.0
3000        30.0
3500        30.0

This is an early Hemi water pump that I cut down to fit the 440 water pump housing. There was enough metal in the bearing housing to still get the centering register lip, but I had to elongate the 4 mount holes inward for the smaller bolt circle on the 440 pump housing. It was the only 8 vaned cast Iron pump I could find at the time. Lou.

[hemi354az]

Pump Test #10 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 4.367", 10 blades, Plastic with forward curved blades, tested with Machined T-stat well housing (Same as Test #1).
RPM         GPM
1000         7.0
1500        18.0
2000        25.0
2500        32.0
3000        29.0
3500        29.0

Great surface finish on this PLASTIC impeller. Compare with Test #7 which is same plastic impeller with the blades curved the opposite way for CCW rotation. Lou.

[hemi354az]

Pump Test #12 - FMC 440
Impeller Diam 4.375", 8 blades, stamped sheet metal, tested with housing that has simple hole under the T-stat.
RPM         GPM
1000        18.0
1500        23.5
2000        33.0
2500        28.0
3000        28.0
3500        28.0

This Test shows the difference in the passage under the T-stat in the two different WP Housings. This data should be compared directly with Test #1 Data. Test #1 (and all the other tests except this Test #12) used the housing on the right in the picture. This Test #12 was done with the same pump/impeller as used in Test #1, but used the housing on the left in the picture.  Lou.

[hemi354az]

FMC 440 Water Pump Test
While the absolute value of the flow in GPM may be questionable, the DIFFERENCE in the flow between all these different pumps is correct. They all flow within 3 or 4 GPM of each other at 3500 RPM, except for the Marine impeller ! Surprise, surprise. There is considerable difference in flow rates at the lower RPMs. Which one do you want for your street driven engine and which for your race car ? All things are a compromise.

I'll not bore you with other obvious comparisons and conclusions (# blades ? Impeller Diameter ? Cast or stamped metal or even plastic impellers ? Rotation ? Curved or straight blades ?).
Perhaps the most significant point is that the TOTAL system is driven by the PUMP. There are lots of other "pinch" points throughout the system (ever look at the head gasket holes that return water to the pump among the different Brands ?). You might want to look for the US Army Handbook of Cooling Systems for Military Vehicles. The HT 361 Chrysler used in the first M113 APCs had an 80 GPM water pump on it. That engine was later replaced by a DD 6V-71. But that engine was bored and stroked into the HT413 which was Chrysler's true Industrial Engine. It is not the same as the car 413. I am modifying my old FMC Motorhome 440 engine. It is getting HT413 heads, exhaust manifolds, and water pump, along with a modified, for water heating under the carb as used in the cast iron HT413 intake manifold, aluminum intake manifold. I'll let you know how it works out when I go from here in Aridzona to the FMC Rally in Nebraska next June.
Hope these water pump tests were useful . . . Press ON, Lou.

[tan top]

   thats some intresting  tests going on !!  
pump in test 3 looks about the best    , thinking though on a car wit air moving through the radiator at speed , might over cool the motor , might be talking rubbish  here , but would be good to figure out a pump blade design , that says moves say  

28 gpm at 600 - 800 rpm
30 gpm at 1000 - 2500 rpm

anyway thanks for posting this stuff Lou makes for intresting reading !!   

[mauve66]

thats pretty cool to see, looks like none but the marine pump really move water below 1000 rpm which is where alot of overheating takes place while sitting at a light or in traffic

[bull]

thats pretty cool to see, looks like none but the marine pump really move water below 1000 rpm which is where alot of overheating takes place while sitting at a light or in traffic

That's not what I'm seeing; not exactly anyway. Looks to me like the stock 440 pump in test #1 has excellent flow between 1000 and 2500 rpm. The marine pump (test #3) starts lower and increases exponentially as the rpms go up whereas the stocker drops off after 2500 rpms. You're getting twice the volume at 1000 rpms with the stock pump as with the marine pump and I'd venture to guess you'd spend most of your driving time between 800 and 2500 rpms, even at a drag race.

Test #1 stock
RPM         GPM
1000        14.5
1500        18.5
2000        23.0
2500        29.0
3000        28.0
3500        27.5

Test #3 marine
RPM         GPM
1000         7.0
1500        17.0
2000        23.0
2500        29.5
3000        36.5
3500        37.0

What's interesting is that the other stock pump in test #6 does not have near the volume of the pump in test 1, apparently since the diameter is so much smaller. Fortunately the stock pump that was on my 383 is the same diameter as the test #1 pump so it seems my assumptions were correct: the stock pumps aren't too shabby. And those are some pretty crappy low rpm numbers on that 440 Source-style pump (#2) as we've already concluded by suspicion. IMO you don't stand a chance when you've got that 440 Source pump coupled with the 440 Source housing. I'd like to see some test results on those aftermarket high volume, six blade aluminum pumps too.

One other issue I'd like to raise. There is a point to where you are getting too much coolant flow through an engine and you've bypassed the true cooling efficiency, ie. the water is moving too fast to efficiently cool the metal it's passing. What is that point?

[Steve P.]

Good point Bull, but the answer lies in everything in "YOUR" car, area and driving habits. The pisser is that what works for you in your application may not for someone in MY application. I'm at sea level and running a slightly modified motor with a shroud, aluminum rad and an electric fan. You might be all stock.. I may feel the need for drag radials where someone else is running a bone stock smog 440 and can't turn a skinny bias ply. Just too many variables. Put simply I want all the cooling I can get at my normal driving RPM. I run a 4:10 gear with 28 inch tall tires in a hot and humid area and sometimes at 60 mile per hour for miles.

The one thing everyone seams to forget is there is a VALVE in line that STOPS water from flowing if it's too cold. Your T-stat.  In my mind I want the best cooling I can get and a great valve to control the temp. I do get where you are headed though. A large volume of water through a small rad. will not cool very efficiently. It needs time to cool in the rad.  and marine engines are not stuck with the very small amount of cooling water we are. My own opinion is that something in the way of stock is great for most road driven motors. If the HP is raised a long way from stock the cooling system needs to be made larger also. If it's a drag only set up you are only driving the car hard for 1/4 mile...

I may be making this sound simple. I know there are many trains of thought on this and most are valid, but water pressure impacting the interior of the block is huge and the pump that makes that happen is where I would be looking..

For guys that idle for 5 minutes at every light you surely don't want a 440 source type pump. Racing should be good but not sitting at lights.. For that you need a large volume at idle pump...

I am very happy to see those numbers on the MARINE CCW/CW pump.  I have a little something up my sleeve for that..  

Thanks Lou. Great work. Please do let us know how the real world treats your testing...

[bull]

I understand there are variables and lots of them and we have no way of covering them all. My basic premise though is to say that the stock water pumps are not inadequate as many people assume or have been led to believe. Like I said, I'd like to see the numbers on the six-blade aftermarket pumps that are frequently advertised as being better than stock by 30%.

[defiance]

WOW there's a lot of info building up in this thread
So from the look of musicman's tests plus hemi354az's work, it appears that the "cyclone" style impellers - at least in the form currently available - are generally extremely low flowing at low RPM, and this is likely the culprit in Ron's case.  Is that what everyone else is getting out of this as well?

I've got a 440source housing and pump on mine, but I haven't driven it enough to really put any stress on the cooling system yet.  Based on what I'm seeing here I think I'll replace the pump (which is a pretty easy swap anyway), but leave the housing on there (which would be a fairly major ordeal to swap).

[Steve P.]

That is what I'm reading for sure. 

Now I want to see what style impeller is on the electric pumps and at what speed do they run......   

[bull]

That is what I'm reading for sure. 

Now I want to see what style impeller is on the electric pumps and at what speed do they run......   

I've heard from a couple people that the electric pumps often run too fast and when it comes to coolant flow there can be "too much of a good thing."

[greenpigs]

I think a Mancini aluminum housing and my stock pump are good enough, for me at least.

**EDIT**

I got the Mancini aluminum housing a few weeks ago and after a good fingering, I think it has plenty of open area.

[mauve66]

thats pretty cool to see, looks like none but the marine pump really move water below 1000 rpm which is where alot of overheating takes place while sitting at a light or in traffic

That's not what I'm seeing; not exactly anyway. Looks to me like the stock 440 pump in test #1 has excellent flow between 1000 and 2500 rpm. The marine pump (test #3) starts lower and increases exponentially as the rpms go up whereas the stocker drops off after 2500 rpms. You're getting twice the volume at 1000 rpms with the stock pump as with the marine pump and I'd venture to guess you'd spend most of your driving time between 800 and 2500 rpms, even at a drag race.

Test #1 stock
RPM         GPM
1000        14.5
1500        18.5
2000        23.0
2500        29.0
3000        28.0
3500        27.5

Test #3 marine
RPM         GPM
1000         7.0
1500        17.0
2000        23.0
2500        29.5
3000        36.5
3500        37.0

What's interesting it that the other stock pump in test #6 does not have near the volume of the pump in test 1, apparently since the diameter is so much smaller. Fortunately the stock pump that was on my 383 is the same diameter as the test #1 pump so it seems my assumptions were correct: the stock pumps aren't too shabby. And those are some pretty crappy low rpm numbers on that 440 Source-style pump (#2) as we've already concluded by suspicion. IMO you don't stand a chance when you've got that 440 Source pump coupled with the 440 Source housing. I'd like to see some test results on those aftermarket high volume, six blade aluminum pumps too.

One other issue I'd like to raise. There is a point to where you are getting too much coolant flow through an engine and you've bypassed the true cooling efficiency, ie. the water is moving too fast to efficiently cool the metal it's passing. What is that point?

your right, boy i sure flubbed that one up, i got confused when scrolling the screen up and down, thanks for the correction

[1970Moparmann]

Well..... I've been having heating issues with my engine, so I haven't even been able to get it on the road yet.  Took off the 440Source water pump housing and sure enough, I got one of the bad ones!  What a crappy design!   Putting a new Mancini one on it today and will see what the difference is like.

Thanks a ton Ron for posting this!   

[Musicman]

Wow Ron, you put a lot of time and effort into that

Thanks posting all that great information, it's deffinately a welcome addition to the thread. The more factual information we can gather the better.




By the way... this is the impeller design of the electric pump that I installed on my Mancini housing. The pump is manufactured by PRP (Philadelphia Racing Products) and sold by FBO.

[broncobra]

The point that Ron was initially trying to make was that as long as the Thermostat is working, and the water pump is circulating some amount of water through the system... the engine may never overheat on a dyno because the dyno uses an efficient water cooled heat exchanger for cooling and not an inefficient natural ambient air cooled system, like those found under the hood of your car.

Hence, the problem may never be seen on a dyno, but may show up rather quickly once the engine is installed in the vehicle.

The thermostat would seem be the bottleneck since even with the ports size being small wiould stil outflow the one common t-stat.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but the fact remains that Ron's problem went away when he changed out the housing, the t-stat remained the same from one housing to the next.

The problem I see in my housing is the fact that the ports themselves do not appear to have very good flow characteristics, as well as being small in size.

By the way, I have over 30 years experience designing, building, engineering and operating US Navy Nuclear Powered Submarines. It's my job to engineer, test, operate and troubleshoot all forms of complex systems, Mechanical & Electrical, many of which use various forms of heat transfer systems.

Sounds like a simple case of miscommunication, no offense intended or taken. Happens all the time on these forums...

Not to belittle you or discount you, but how come we have no nuclear powered Charger yet? What's the hold up, man? 30 YEARS! The Charger is older than that, it deserves your complete design knowledge. Think of the Chebbie envy.

[broncobra]

OK... I found ten minutes... time for my comments 

Given a choice between the stock Mopar housing and the restricted version of the 440 housing, I would still choose the stock housing simply because it makes me feel better knowing that I have the better of the 2 installed. It's all strictly psychological of course, but I would still feel better about it in my own mind.
Obviously some of these aftermarket aluminum housings (440 source included) are just as nice as the originals... and apparently some of them (like the ones that Ron & I have) are not. That being the case, if I were in the market for a new aluminum pump housing, I would call ahead and notify the manufacture of this issue beforehand, and tell them that this item will be returned if it does not measure up. If they can't accept those terms, then I would move on to the next seller.

Where the electric alternatives are concerned... I have always liked the idea of having an electric water pump up front, but have always shied away from them because of all the stories I've heard about them burning up motors quicker than a jack rabbit on a date.
As far as their advertised flow ratings are concerned... I'm sorry, you might get 55 GPM out of that little bast*** if you stick one end of the pump in a pool, and let it just puke out the other end, but there ain't no way on gods great earth that thing is going to move 55 gpm through your engines circulatory system.
My rig was pushing water through an unrestricted system with a 42 Pound, Continuous Duty, Industrial, Permanent Magnet DC Motor controlled by a speed controller with built in torque compensation... and it was all I could do to push 40 GPM through 1" ID cross connected tubing's with 10" radius bends... and your telling me that a little bitty 6 amp 12 volt POS is going to outperform my test rig... I don't think so. Not to mention the fact that a flow rate that high would push water through the block so frigg'n fast that your thermostat couldn't possibly keep pace. By the time the dam t-stat opened up and closed again you would have undergone about a dozen complete water exchanges with no cooling cycles. Like most advertising, all that it means to me is that one pump will perform like a stock pump and the other one will perform more like a HV pump... or so they claim.
Don't get me wrong here, I still like the idea of an electric pump, I wish I had one, but moving any volume of water around your block is a lot of work for any motor, let alone a small high rpm motor...  It's no wonder they have a reputation for burning out real quick, their doing a lot of work. Then of course there is the matter of cost. A good electric pump is not cheap.... but I still like em 

That should be be pretty close to true, because of the rule of hydraulics, you can only pump 20 GPM thru a 1/2" line if I remember correctly. So that stands to reason. Thank you for taking your time and effort to check this out for everybody.

[Musicman]

How come we have no nuclear powered Charger yet? What's the hold up, man?

What... You don't have one of the Mr Fusion units on your car yet

[broncobra]

I understand there are variables and lots of them and we have no way of covering them all. My basic premise though is to say that the stock water pumps are not inadequate as many people assume or have been led to believe. Like I said, I'd like to see the numbers on the six-blade aftermarket pumps that are frequently advertised as being better than stock by 30%.

I totally agree with you Bull. There was an article a few issues back in I think Popular Hot Rodding, where they tested oil pumps. OEM, High volume, and High Capacity. The stock units were almost spec for spec the same, except in a very, very few high all out race capacity, the same as these high dollar aftermarket pieces. You'd be money ahead if you used a stock pump and maybe an accumulator. I think the same thing is going on here with the water pumps, and probably a lot of times with the fuel pumps. Coils and ignitiojn systems are also in the same boat. 99% of people don't need all this fancy high dollar shit. The factory already spent millions of dollars testing and perfecting the stuff available, and the factory engineers would be able to guide you better to high performance stuff (mopar performance) than some aftermarket commpany that just wants to make some money. Are there exceptions? Hell yes. XV motorsports comes to mind. Have you seen their testing videos? For the majority of people looking for an upgrade, a LOT of the stuff on the market is just overkill and bullshit dollars wasted for bragging rights. That stock water pump specs looked pretty damn good, compared to all the others. Even with a bigger motor and all the billet goodies, it still seems to outperform the "upgrade" chineese parts. I think for a lot of the parts on my next build, I will stick to what the Mopar gurus reccomend in "Big Block 'B-RB' Engines book, or a book by Andy F on stroking engines that I haven't bought yet. No matter how big a coil you have, the engine is only going to draw what it needs. Not what the coil is advertised to deliver. Sometimes stock can't be beat. I realize there is room for improvement in a lot of areas, but spend your money where the parts matter. Aluminum rocker arms on the street is a joke, and a huge waste of money, no vacuum advance on the street is a waste of money, etc. Do research. Don't buy something just because the mag tells you to, or your buddies think it's cool.

[broncobra]

How come we have no nuclear powered Charger yet? What's the hold up, man?

What... You don't have one of the Mr Fusion units on your car yet

OHHHhhh... I WANT! I actually don't have a Charger at the moment, I have it's granddaddy, the 67 Coronet. Maybe I should really freak people out and put the four buckets in  my Coronet. Call it a Chargernet, or a Coronarger.  (I've had 2 Chargers), but I am putting a Charger hideaway headlight grill on it to blur the lines. Thanks for all the trouble and time you went through to check all these issues out with the water pump/housing issues and saving me money.

[1970Moparmann]

Well..... I've been having heating issues with my engine, so I haven't even been able to get it on the road yet.  Took off the 440Source water pump housing and sure enough, I got one of the bad ones!  What a crappy design!   Putting a new Mancini one on it today and will see what the difference is like.

Thanks a ton Ron for posting this!   

I finally got everything back together on Wednesday and fired the car up on Thursday.  When idling, and engine warm, the water pump housing is at 180 - 185, block and heads between 170 and 175.   Worked like a charm!   For the record, I replaced the POS housing with a Mancini branded one.

Thanks again Ron for the thread!!!!!!

[CDN 69 Charger]

Thanks man really good read for sure!!