Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !

[Steve P.]

I bought mine 2 years ago and it has the "TIP OF ONE FINGER" hole.

[b5blue]

Maybe 440 Source should get the tip of your middle finger for a gauge! 

[Mfr426]

I took my 440Source "combo deal" off just bought a used factory cast iron unit after seeing the restriction for myself. I also got the Milodon HV pump for a bit of added help. I dont like a hot running motor.

[tripleblkr/t]

I'm going to change mine out real soon, my car was running around 230 and it was only 65 degrees out.

[vegasmike]

Ron, you know I feel your pain. I've been dealing with this for years.. The motor that was in the charger went to the Coronet and I have no problems. That motor just ran hot along with several others motors that were in that car. 2 radiators, 3 housings, 3 different pumps... Personally I don't think the guy who rebuilt the rads knows what he's doing.    I have no flow, but he tells me different.. Just give me my spoon, right? Cause I'm crazy..... 

[Steve P.]

Mike, how is your flow with the aluminum rad. and electric pump?

[vegasmike]

Steve , it flows like it spoda.... The Coronet has the Summit radiator...... Big difference from car to car and this motor is bored 50 over.

[Steve P.]

I read years ago, a story in "Hot Rod" I think, that was all about the late 60's, early 70's B bodies having cooling trouble due to the set back grills. If I remember it was partly told by Richard Petty and crew. I don't think it has anything to do with this subject, exactly, but I thought I would throw it in.

Boy, I just can't wait to get my car together and have all this trouble..     It's all part of it though...... 

[vegasmike]

Steve I've been waiting for you to get that car together for years ...I should just come out there and do it for ya

[Steve P.]

And yet your still in Vegas.....



Back on subject.... 

[greenpigs]

So the Summit and mancini housings are ok? I kinda was thinking of getting a few things for the next time I rebuild the 440.

[Steve P.]

Went to a buddy's shop the other day and saw a 440 Source box on his build shelf. I asked when he got it and opened the box. It has the 440 source logo on it and has the small passenger side hole. He said he's had it about 2 months. He says when the time comes, he will try to hog out some materiel and see how far he can take it.  He then told me he just finished a 493" that has most everything in it from 440 source and made 640HP on the dyno. He said all the guts are 440 Source including crank kit, rods, pistons, stealth heads, (Had to do much work on them), and valve train. I pointed him to a few threads about the rockers and he said he had read them and his customer WANTED them.
We shall see.......

[Musicman]

The pump housing is not the issue, it was the poor low rpm performance of the 440source pump itself. It performed even worse than a stock pump at low rpm's. Switching to the Milodon HV pump, Ron may have seen as much as a 30% - 40% increase in low rpm flow compared to his original 440 source pump... that's a big difference.

[Steve P.]

Hey Mike,  I trust your finding knowing what I do about your background, but I cannot in any way accept that from one side of the outflow to the other it can possibly be anywhere in the ballpark of EVEN.

Put simply: Take one source of water flow and divide it into 2 outlets, one being larger than the other, the one with the easiest path, or larger hole will be the one to flow the most water.  This is the problem I have. The factory cast housing isn't perfect, but much closer to balanced. So in my military mind, #s 1-3-5-7 are being shorted of cooling water.

Did you run a test for balance? Sorry if you posted it and I don't remember, lotttts on my mind lately.   

[Musicman]

No I did not test them to see if they flowed evenly on both sides, but I'm sure your right Steve. One outlet being slightly smaller than the other should make a difference... but then again it may or may not make a difference. It really depends on the rest of the housing, is one side of the housing biased in terms of inlet flow. That is something that would have to be checked out as well.
On the other side of the coin however... Each pump flowed exactly the same on each housing. That being said, if there was a huge difference in flow from one side to the other between housings, then it should have shown up in testing. In other words, the 440 source housing should have flowed less than the Mopar housing, but it didn't.
You also have to remember that both sides are not independant of each other. They may split at the block inlets, but they are reunited again within the pump at the block exit ports, and through the internal recirc port, so pressure is always more or less equal from one side to the other.
Be that as it may... The biggest problem that I have with these stock style pumps and housings is this... Once you reach a certain rpm (and it isn't very high) you are maxed out in terms of "free flow" potential. At this point the pump becomes a parasitic loss, acting like an engine brake that is applied full time. The engine now has to devote more and more horse power to the assembly as the rpm's increase in order to overcome the resistance at the pump. This is where an electric pump has the potential to really shine...

[Mick70RR]

The pump housing is not the issue, it was the poor low rpm performance of the 440source pump itself. It performed even worse than a stock pump at low rpm's. Switching to the Milodon HV pump, Ron may have seen as much as a 30% - 40% increase in low rpm flow compared to his original 440 source pump... that's a big difference.

A few weeks ago I swapped my 440 Source pump for a stock cast iron 6 blade pump but left the 440 Source housing fitted. Been driving the car every day since then including a few longish trips and, on average, the engine temp has dropped about 10 degrees. I also think the problem is the 440 Source pump.

[Steve P.]

I'm hearing you Mike, but if you do set this test up again sometime, I would love to see the results of the 5-gallon bucket test at EACH port at the same time. I'm no expert, but I don't think the water from each side of the block mixes again until it reaches the water pump on the suction side. Please correct me if I am wrong, ANYONE. I don't want to misrepresent either way. I just really want the nuts and bolts of it all.

One other question. I know you're some what limited with test equipment, but did you by any chance use an amp load meter on each of the tests and at different speeds?

I agree on the electric pump 100%. Especially for racing when you don't have to worry about being a few hundred miles from home when the pump craps out. All local parts stores will have a 440 stock pump in house. Very few will have a new electric pump. Though I believe that is a quality issue too. Or maybe just a "planned obsolescence"  issue.   
The other end of it is the need for a higher amp alternator when using additional motors. WP, electric fan, A/C etc. It's a give and take and everyone will have needs for one or the other.

Any way around it, great work Mike. We all appreciate your work on this.. Maybe there is room for you on MYTH BUSTERS.. 

[Musicman]

I'm hearing you Mike, but if you do set this test up again sometime, I would love to see the results of the 5-gallon bucket test at EACH port at the same time.

Steve… If you ran the test with each port flowing into a separate container, then yes I would think that there should be a noticeable difference side to side, at least at some point during the test. Once the free flow volume of the smaller port is reached, that’s when things would start to change.
As I said earlier however, these 2 ports are physically connected together in the discharge region of the pump housing, so each one will have an effect on the other. If one port were flowing drastically better than the other, the difference in head pressure in the t-stat region of the housing would create an imbalance. But again that should have shown up as a difference in flow when switching pumps from one housing to the next.
I can tell you that I did observed the flows through each of the 1" tubing's during the tests, looking for signs of cavitations, etc, and that during that time I did not perceive any noticeable difference in flow... but that still doesn't mean that it wasn't present.

I'm no expert, but I don't think the water from each side of the block mixes again until it reaches the water pump on the suction side. Please correct me if I am wrong, ANYONE. I don't want to misrepresent either way. I just really want the nuts and bolts of it all.

I think you have it right, just worded wrong…
The suction side of the pump is at the lower radiator hose connection. Water is sucked into the housing through the pump itself and discharged out two different paths through the block. Like a fork in the road, the 2 lower ports of the housing send the pump discharge to the left and right side of the block. The water within the block is then forced out of the block and into the 2 upper ports of the pump housing, where they are reunited once again as a single stream, slamming head on into each other within the t-stat region of the pump housing. There is also a small port within the housing itself connecting the suction & discharge areas of the housing, which acts as a recirc line for the pump.

One other question. I know you're some what limited with test equipment, but did you by any chance use an amp load meter on each of the tests and at different speeds?

Unfortunately no... I thought about it when I got into the second phase of these tests because I was really curious to see just what the load was at the upper end of the scale. In other words... Just when and where did the pump start to become a parasite on the engine.

When I set up this test, I was looking to answer (1) question, and one question only… Was the apparent flow restriction in the 440 source pump housing really the cause of the problem, or was it the 440 source pump itself? I found the answer to that question, but like any test… I also found that it raised more questions for me than it answered… things that I never really thought about before…. and if I was to do it all over again, I would set it up completely different, so that those questions could be answered. These are archaic systems that were designed to work “well enough” under typical average driving conditions, with a stock build, and that’s about it. Getting these things to work correctly on today’s high output builds, running on that limp wristed fairy water they sell as gasoline today, which generates even more heat… is nothing short of a frigg’n miracle really.

I agree on the electric pump 100%. Especially for racing when you don't have to worry about being a few hundred miles from home when the pump craps out. All local parts stores will have a 440 stock pump in house. Very few will have a new electric pump. Though I believe that is a quality issue too. Or maybe just a "planned obsolescence"  issue.   
The other end of it is the need for a higher amp alternator when using additional motors. WP, electric fan, A/C etc. It's a give and take and everyone will have needs for one or the other.

Any way around it, great work Mike. We all appreciate your work on this.. Maybe there is room for you on MYTH BUSTERS.. 

There are 2 styles of electric pumps that I am aware of… those that bolt to your existing stock pump housing, and those that come with their own custom housing.
Myself, I think I would opt for the one that bolts to the stock housing and carry a spare, or a rebuild kit at all times.

[BrianShaughnessy]

So the Summit and mancini housings are ok? I kinda was thinking of getting a few things for the next time I rebuild the 440.

I've had a Mancini housing on for years...  along with a CAT pump.     No problems.   Go figure.

[Musicman]

For those who have not had the opportunity to see this restricted housing for themselves, here are a couple of side-by-side's.
As you can see, it's not a pretty site   The restriction in this area of the port acts like an orifice in a pipe rather than a actual reduction in pipe diameter, so the effect is somewhat minimalized "apparently"... Furthermore, it appears that not all of the manufactures housings suffer from this blight. Nonetheless, I would still not recommend this housing to anyone, unless they purchased it from the manufacture with an understanding that it would be returned if found defective in this way.

Obviously, the stock housing is on the left

[bull]

I'm kind of late to the party here but I was just thinking that there's one other factor I haven't seen mentioned yet and that's radiation. While the 440 Source housing might not restrict flow (one might argue that no water pump can pump fast enough to inundate the housing orifices to the point of true restriction) a larger area in which the coolant can flow will, in theory, radiate more heat away from the engine than it would inside a more restricted area. While the flow volume might not be restricted the water itself is contained inside a smaller area with thicker walls, smaller orifices, etc. However, we know that aluminum does a better job of eliminating heat than iron so it might be a wash. I don't know, just my .

At any rate, that's a helluva difference in orifice sizes above. Thanks for doing your tests.

[Musicman]

Here's one for future reference... This is the 440 Source housing (left) next to a Mancini housing. Not only is the Mancini housing less restricted, it is absolutely cavernous by comparison.

 

[Ghoste]

Is that a fairly current Mancini housing?  I tried to get some info from them on this topic confirming that they were still using that housing and hadn't recently followed the mad mad rush to all things Cheap and China but they never responded.

[Musicman]

Yes, that is a brand new Mancini housing As I said before, this port is huge compared to the one on the 440 Source housing. Is it as large as the original Mopar casting? Just looking at it, I would say no, but it is extremely close. Then again it may have been done this way on purpose for balance between the ports  I'm not going to set up a test rig to test the theory, but I believe that balance is what both manufactures were shooting for in their designs here, and this is the reason the smaller port is found on this side of the pump in the aftermarket castings.

[Chatt69chgr]

I just got my new Mancini housing and pump today.  I concur with Musicman's description of the housing.  The pump that comes with their combo housing/pump deal is their own.  They told me it is virtually identical to the Milodon pump.  It has 6 vanes with the metal piece welded to the back and the pump housing itself is also aluminum.  This combo pack also comes with a steel Mopar brand chrome water neck.  I have a billet aluminum one of these so won't use it on this build.  I also got the Milodon high volume 180 degree thermostat.