Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !

[my73charger]

Ron,

Where do you pick up one of those thermal gauges?  How much are they?

Tim

[turbobitt]

Turbobitt....i'm not sure comparing a Hemi to a wedge is even a valid/fair comparison. The larger hemi cylinder head casting holds more coolant than a wedge head due to it's mass....how much more I don't know. It's quite possible that the extra capacity and better chamber design has some influence on the rate of thermal transfer.  An interesting test would be to measure coolant temps inside the heads (wedge vs hemi) with a thermal probe and compare....not really practical but it would shed some light on the discussion.

Ron


Ps. I'm glad to hear your's is working fine. Are you satisfied with the coolant flow across the top of the tank with the stat open ? That to me is the key factor in this discussion. I can tell you that poor flow in a wedge head build equals increased operating temps and radiant heat....no doubt about it in my mind. 

The problem your talking about is with lack of water flow. This wouldn't matter if it was a wedge or Hemi. No flow = no cooling = overheating. 

[turbobitt]

This statement is incorrect since most , if not all dyno's use a water to water heat exchange system that still requires the water pump to flow water through the engine. The "Unlimited" water supply is on one side of the heat exchange system but not the engine side. If the water pump didn't turn in the dyno, it would still overheat. So if there was a flow restriction on the dyno, the same would happen.

Sorry, but that is an incorrect statement since the purpose of a fluid heat exchanger is to provide a constant source of cooling water which is used to control and remove the heat from the engines cooling system fluids. It's like sticking your radiator in a barrel full of unlimited supply of icewater, it will never get hot, and therefore the cooling water entering the engine will never be hot. You use the flow rate and temperature of the water flowing through the heat exchanger to control the temperature of the secondary system, which in this case is your engines cooling system.

I have extensive experience with dyno heat exchangers and my statement is correct. You say that the water entering the engine is always cool becasue of an unlimited supply. This is only partially correct since the heat exchanger is cooled with an unlimited supply of water BUT the argument here is that there is no water flow due to restrictive pump casting. It wouldn't mater how cold the water is if there is no flow.

BTW - "sticking your radiator in a barrel full of unlimited supply of icewater" is no good. You still need cool water to flow across to exchange heat. The water around the core would get hot very fast.

[turbobitt]

Another thing to note, fast moving water doesn't mean best cooling. The water needds to move at a rate that will allow it to exchange heat across the radiator effectivly. This is why removing the T-stat without adding a restrictor often results in overheating. The coolnt needs to spend some time in the radiator exchanging heat.

[Musicman]

BTW - "sticking your radiator in a barrel full of unlimited supply of icewater" is no good. You still need cool water to flow across to exchange heat. The water around the core would get hot very fast.

That's what a heat exchanger does, that's why they have an inlet and an outlet on the cooler... for fresh cooling water to circulate in and out of the cooler... CONSTANTLY, ALL THE TIME, A NEVER ENDING SUPPLY... how many other ways can we spell this out for you .

Ron is correct...

[turbobitt]

This would make more sense to me. The water pump is not a positive displacement pump by design. The pump needs to move when the water is dead headed when the t-stat is closed. The water pump efficiency would be greatly influenced by the gap between the impellor and the housing. If the gap was to large, the pump wouldn't move water properly and just move it around the pump housing without going into the proper ports. If for some reason your pump and housing have an unfavorable gap, than maybe the flow would be less than optimal. This may be worth looking into.

[turbobitt]

BTW - "sticking your radiator in a barrel full of unlimited supply of icewater" is no good. You still need cool water to flow across to exchange heat. The water around the core would get hot very fast.

That's what a heat exchanger does, that's why they have an inlet and an outlet on the cooler... for fresh cooling water to circulate in and out of the cooler... CONSTANTLY, ALL THE TIME, A NEVER ENDING SUPPLY... how many other ways can we spell this out for you .

Ron is correct...

Well, wasn't intending this to be a heated discussion but oh well.  You fail to see the point that you still need to pump the water regardless of your "never ending water supply".  Water still needs to flow from point A to B. Unless another pump was used on the dyno, than I would look elsewhere.

[turbobitt]

BTW - "sticking your radiator in a barrel full of unlimited supply of icewater" is no good. You still need cool water to flow across to exchange heat. The water around the core would get hot very fast.

That's what a heat exchanger does, that's why they have an inlet and an outlet on the cooler... for fresh cooling water to circulate in and out of the cooler... CONSTANTLY, ALL THE TIME, A NEVER ENDING SUPPLY... how many other ways can we spell this out for you .

Ron is correct...

Musicman, I spent a lot of time in and around dyno cells and engine endurance cells. I helped design and service the overhead heat exchangers for these cells. Believe me when I tell you that an engine without a pump or restriction will not cool itself with a never ending supply. It still needs to flow. I don't have any doubts that there may be something wrong with this pump/housing. Just don't think its the port size. The thermostat would seem be the bottleneck since even with the ports size being small wiould stil outflow the one common t-stat.

[Musicman]

The point that Ron was initially trying to make was that as long as the Thermostat is working, and the water pump is circulating some amount of water through the system... the engine may never overheat on a dyno because the dyno uses an efficient water cooled heat exchanger for cooling and not an inefficient natural ambient air cooled system, like those found under the hood of your car.

Hence, the problem may never be seen on a dyno, but may show up rather quickly once the engine is installed in the vehicle.

The thermostat would seem be the bottleneck since even with the ports size being small wiould stil outflow the one common t-stat.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but the fact remains that Ron's problem went away when he changed out the housing, the t-stat remained the same from one housing to the next.

The problem I see in my housing is the fact that the ports themselves do not appear to have very good flow characteristics, as well as being small in size.

By the way, I have over 30 years experience designing, building, engineering and operating US Navy Nuclear Powered Submarines. It's my job to engineer, test, operate and troubleshoot all forms of complex systems, Mechanical & Electrical, many of which use various forms of heat transfer systems.

Sounds like a simple case of miscommunication, no offense intended or taken. Happens all the time on these forums...

[Mick70RR]

I'd be interested to know how the 440 Source housing performed with the Milodon pump.

[Musicman]

I will be running some tests in my shop here very shortly that may answer a few questions.

Stock Housing - Stock Pump
Stock Housing - 440 Souce Pump
440 Source Housing - Stock Pump
440Source Housing - 440 Source Pump

etc... Sorry I don't have a Milodon kicking around at the moment.

[turbobitt]

The point that Ron was initially trying to make was that as long as the Thermostat is working, and the water pump is circulating some amount of water through the system... the engine may never overheat on a dyno because the dyno uses an efficient water cooled heat exchanger for cooling and not an inefficient natural ambient air cooled system, like those found under the hood of your car.

Hence, the problem may never be seen on a dyno, but may show up rather quickly once the engine is installed in the vehicle.

The thermostat would seem be the bottleneck since even with the ports size being small would still outflow the one common t-stat.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but the fact remains that Ron's problem went away when he changed out the housing, the t-stat remained the same from one housing to the next.

The problem I see in my housing is the fact that the ports themselves do not appear to have very good flow characteristics, as well as being small in size.

By the way, I have over 30 years experience designing, building, engineering and operating US Navy Nuclear Powered Submarines. It's my job to engineer, test, operate and troubleshoot all forms of complex systems, Mechanical & Electrical, many of which use various forms of heat transfer systems.

Sounds like a simple case of miscommunication, no offense intended or taken. Happens all the time on these forums...

Check out my post above, I bet the problem is in the impeller to housing interaction and not the port size.

BTW. I'm not going to compare credentials but I spent a lot of time in the Heavy duty diesel industry and oversaw the development of many types of diesel engines. I had the pleasure of travelling to CAT , Cummins, and International for various reasons and worked on many others. My place of employment had one of the most sophisticated dyno's in the world but is now somewhat dated. I got to see a lot of cooling problems and a lot were miss diagnosed. A lot of problems went away when we switched from regular street water to coolant. Regular water will cavitate and erode parts much quicker than coolant.

[turbobitt]

I will be running some tests in my shop here very shortly that may answer a few questions.

Stock Housing - Stock Pump
Stock Housing - 440 Souce Pump
440 Source Housing - Stock Pump
440Source Housing - 440 Source Pump

etc... Sorry I don't have a Milodon kicking around at the moment.

Sounds like the makings of a good test. How about some measurments between the impeler and housing, specifically the suspect housing and pump ?

[firefighter3931]

This would make more sense to me. The water pump is not a positive displacement pump by design. The pump needs to move when the water is dead headed when the t-stat is closed.

Technically, the pump will move just fine indefinately while the stat is closed....that is why there is a Bypass built into the BB mopar waterpump housing.   The lower opening on my aftermarket housing is significantly smaller than the thermostat. Your point on restriction i do agree with...the stat or restrictor is a necessity.

Anybody who's operated a dyno extensively will tell you that lots of potential problems can get masked in a "controlled" environment.  


Put another way ; supposing you had a known overheating issue as a result of Lazy water circulation....which would you rather have ; an unlimited supply of say room temperature water or a limited supply of say 180* water....i suppose that is the issue we are discussing here   And further to that....which do you feel would perform better ?



Ron

[firefighter3931]

I will be running some tests in my shop here very shortly that may answer a few questions.

Stock Housing - Stock Pump
Stock Housing - 440 Souce Pump
440 Source Housing - Stock Pump
440Source Housing - 440 Source Pump

etc... Sorry I don't have a Milodon kicking around at the moment.

Sounds like the makings of a good test. How about some measurments between the impeler and housing, specifically the suspect housing and pump ?

I could take some measurements   But honestly i'm not thrilled with the impeller design on the 440 source pump. The ribs look small and cheesy compared to the Milodon pump. Both have anti-cavitation plates so i don't think that played into the equasion.

Honestly, all you have to do is stick your finger in the lower passenger side port and compare to a stock housing. I can't see anyone being happy with that level of restriction....especially on the "supply" side of the cooling system.  


Ron

[turbobitt]

Ron,

There is a difference between your 440 Source housing and mine and/or eveyone elses. I personally think it may be more than the hole restrictons. It would also be interesting if the port opening was opened up to gasket size to see if there was an improvement. If the problem is fixable through simple porting, would be nice to know. If the problem is a machining clearance issue with a dimensional value to look for, that would be nice to know also. This would eliminate the generalization that there all bad and would set people at ease who already purchased them but have not used them and can inspect for a specific defect. It may end up being the port size. Maybe your housing had some core shift ? I can't remember anything specific about mine other than opening the ports to match the gasket.

[Chatt69chgr]

Great discussion.  Once we get to the bottom of this, we need to share the findings with the other Mopar forums. 

I really appreciate the level of maturity of the members on our forum.  Folks can engage in a discussion, sometimes heated but remain civil and objective.  You won't find this on a lot of car forums.

[firefighter3931]

Ron,

There is a difference between your 440 Source housing and mine and/or eveyone elses. I personally think it may be more than the hole restrictons. It would also be interesting if the port opening was opened up to gasket size to see if there was an improvement. If the problem is fixable through simple porting, would be nice to know. If the problem is a machining clearance issue with a dimensional value to look for, that would be nice to know also. This would eliminate the generalization that there all bad and would set people at ease who already purchased them but have not used them and can inspect for a specific defect. It may end up being the port size. Maybe your housing had some core shift ? I can't remember anything specific about mine other than opening the ports to match the gasket.

Turbobitt ;

Several members on the Moparts thread inspected their (440 Source) housings and made the same observation i did. The opening seems fine....the problem lies deeper in the casting where you can't see. When i installed mine i noticed that the port openings were slightly smaller than stock but nothing that really concerned me. I didn't think to look inside....just took for granted that the internal dimensions were identical to stock.  

Once i knew what to look for the restriction was quite apparent. I bet the smallest part of that port flows maybe 30% of the port opening....on the stock housing it's pretty much the same size as far down as i can reach. Obviously a more scientific method would involve actual fluid volume measurement over a fixed period of time.  Sounds like a project for Mike  


Ron

[Musicman]

Ron

Quick question... Were you running the Milodon pump with 440 housing, or did you change that as well? I was under the impression that the only thing changed was the housing itself, and you were already running your favorite Milodon pump.

This information will be good to know for test purposes. The 440 source pump is a better design, but I agree that the depth of the impellers is rather shallow, and therefore it may not flow as well as it should. As far as fitment goes... I haven't actually measured one either, but I know that if I stick my 440 source pump in either of the housings without a gasket, it literally drags on the back surface of the housing.

[hpmike]

I build a few Mopar engines at  my shop.

I have never bought a 440 Source product, at least not knowingly anyway.  A customer gave me a Source wp hsg and it didn't lay flat on the table, so I didn't bother to use it.  I have probably purchased over 25 wp housings from Mancini over the last few years and while honestly I probably wouldn't think to dig my finger down in there(unless perhaps I was chasing a potential problem) I haven't had any rash of issues. Just for shits and giggles I went over the ones I presently had on hand at the shop. 6 in total.   Two OE's(One iron and another early race Hemi aluminum) and 4 seperate hsgs that were aluminum.  1 was an MP part with P number and the others were the ones that Mancini sells.  All seemed pretty much the same internally and did not exhibit the necked down situation as described.  Interesting find though and worth a look to make sure anyway.   

Take it for whatever it's worth,..

MB

[Steve P.]

Turbobit,  Before you get any tighter, PLease stick your finger down into the lower PASSENGER side passage of the 440 source pump housing. You will then understand what we are saying.  Gasket matching has NOTHING to do with it..

It's the same as pinching down your garden hose. It isn't going to have great pressure with LITTLE volume.....

Your analogy of T-stat and orifice is correct, only these housings have there OWN ORIFICE.


Musicman: I am dying to see your results... Being a NAVY Machinist Mate, I did my time on pumps, motors, evaps and generators. I agree the 440 source pump STYLE is better. High volume with great pressure and no cavitation. BUT, after seeing the lousy inner casting of the housing it makes me wonder how bad the impeller casting is. Egg shape/out of balance?? Who knows. I know there isn't much volume getting through a 1/2" or smaller hole.....

[firefighter3931]

Ron

Quick question... Were you running the Milodon pump with 440 housing, or did you change that as well? I was under the impression that the only thing changed was the housing itself, and you were already running your favorite Milodon pump.

This information will be good to know for test purposes. The 440 source pump is a better design, but I agree that the depth of the impellers is rather shallow, and therefore it may not flow as well as it should. As far as fitment goes... I haven't actually measured one either, but I know that if I stick my 440 source pump in either of the housings without a gasket, it literally drags on the back surface of the housing.

Mike, i swapped both the housing and pump at the same time. The Milodon pump was mounted to my factory housing and was removed intact and reinstalled the same way. I had considered testing the milodon pump on the Source housing but it's a real pain with my car....the rad and fan have to be removed to access the housing. I have maybe 1/2in clearance between the puller fan and water pump pulley. 

The factory housing & Milodon pump worked just fine before....i should have just left well enough alone. 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

I build a few Mopar engines at  my shop.

I have never bought a 440 Source product, at least not knowingly anyway.  A customer gave me a Source wp hsg and it didn't lay flat on the table, so I didn't bother to use it.  I have probably purchased over 25 wp housings from Mancini over the last few years and while honestly I probably wouldn't think to dig my finger down in there(unless perhaps I was chasing a potential problem) I haven't had any rash of issues. Just for shits and giggles I went over the ones I presently had on hand at the shop. 6 in total.   Two OE's(One iron and another early race Hemi aluminum) and 4 seperate hsgs that were aluminum.  1 was an MP part with P number and the others were the ones that Mancini sells.  All seemed pretty much the same internally and did not exhibit the necked down situation as described.  Interesting find though and worth a look to make sure anyway.   

Take it for whatever it's worth,..

MB

Mike, thanks for the report. 


Ron

[Musicman]

Ron

Quick question... Were you running the Milodon pump with 440 housing, or did you change that as well? I was under the impression that the only thing changed was the housing itself, and you were already running your favorite Milodon pump.

Mike, i swapped both the housing and pump at the same time. The Milodon pump was mounted to my factory housing and was removed intact and reinstalled the same way.

Thanks Ron

That being the case, I owe Turbobitt an apology for providing him with misleading information. I was under the assumtion that it was only the housing that had been changed.

So now we are looking at 3 possibles...
A: The housing was the problem
B: The pump was the problem
C: Both Pump and Housing were a problem

We'll find out soon enough...

[Hot_Rodder]