Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !

[mally69]

   good eye bro, i actually bought one for my 512 , ill have to change that out, i never actually looked at it that close, good thing i got some old cast iron ones laying around ill have to clean one up.  

[Mfr426]

I'll be R/R'ing my 440Source pump this weekend if I can get the honey to give me a few hours to tinker in the garage. If my 505 runs cooler with the stock housing and the new Milodon HV pump (thanks Ron) I'll be calling 440Source about the situation. I spent quite a bit of money with them (a few grand) and if this pump combo is as bad as it sounds I'll let them know that I'd like to negociate some form of refund. I can be very persuvive when I need to be. 

I wish it was Friday so I could start wrenching. 

[mikesbbody]

Thanks for the heads up Ron  I too was considering the 440 source waterpump but not now. I see the WP wasnt the problem though but you chose to stick with your Milodon (looking at the pics I can see why!) I have always had the factory housing and pumps. I have had 2 pumps let go on me but that's in 10 years so imo not too bad...
You are right Ron, those 440source type WP's are on Ebay all the time.

[TexasStroker]

I had heard that the water neck holes were off, but this is a serious issue that I can't correct.  A friend picked one up for his car and I'd been wanting to know if he had to egg the water neck bolt holes or not...I will relay this information.

I had really wanted to pick up a 440source wp housing as I thought they were a trick piece at a good price...

I am hopeful that they will not take this as an insult, but as an issue that they can resolve by updating the casting...

[tan top]

Brian Shaughnessy needs to get his buddy E-booger on this.  It's a tech story right up MA's alley and one that needs to be done.  Besdies, they have more money (than me) to go out and get a bunch of housings for comparison.

yeah that sounds like thats a bit of them , doing a test like that 

[Steve P.]

I also question whether or not they already knew they had a problem. I mean, we know the Chinese don't give a crap about quality control, but it sure seems to me that if I was putting out a product I would want it to be the best in the business. This means testing in every way possible. These cannot have had a flow test done against the original mopar housings. If it were mine I would want to be able to boast that my product was BETTER in every way.   It would NOT have my name on it any other way...

[Musicman]

Hey Mick, mine is the model with no logo on it. 

I wonder if the housing with the logo on it has a revised design ? 

Ron

Unfortunately, the one that I have is just like yours Ron (no Logo), so I can't answer that question either.
I do wonder about the pump itself however... The 440 impeller design is superior to that of your normal water slapper, but whether or not it actually works any better or not remains to be seen. Maybe I'll do a little side by side testing here just for squirts and wiggles.

[400/6/PAC]

My motor has ran hot ever since I first got it going.
I only have a few hundred miles on it and still have not quite got the 3 duces and timing dialed in.
I kept thinking that was the cause of the over heating.
Can't wait to get home and check the pump and housing.
Thanks Ron

[tripleblkr/t]

Just got off the phone with 440 scorce and they seemed to know nothing about the issues with these water pump housings. I have one of there newer style waterpumps on my car and it's running really hot all the time. I took the cap off my radiator last night while running and the coolant is barely moving around. It seems like all my new parts are bad .

[Musicman]

I did build a rig this morning that will allow me to test the pumps and housings off engine in my shop under controlled conditions. Unfortunately, I don't have any more time to play with it today. Hopefully tomorrow I can begin running a few tests

[tripleblkr/t]

What I dont get is my engine temp was great on the dyno with the 440 scorce water pump, right around 168.

[lisiecki1]

does an engine dyno recirculate the coolant like a closed-circuit system in a car?

[Mick70RR]

Ron, did you have the housing with 440 Source cast into the front or the original one with no name on it?

Hey Mick, mine is the model with no logo on it. 

I wonder if the housing with the logo on it has a revised design ? 

A simple test is to run your engine with the rad cap off and observe the coolant flow when the stat opens....even at idle the water should be moving briskly and when you bump the throttle it should just fly. 


Ron

I have the one without the logo too but I don't have any overheating problems. That's why I thought the problem might be just with the newer housing with the logo. I will run the engine without the radiator cap some time over the weekend and see how quickly the water is flowing.

[gasoline_24]

Just got off the phone with 440 scorce and they seemed to know nothing about the issues with these water pump housings. I have one of there newer style waterpumps on my car and it's running really hot all the time. I took the cap off my radiator last night while running and the coolant is barely moving around. It seems like all my new parts are bad .

I feel your pain.  It seems to go in spurts and then you become numb to it.  I was just happy I found out when I did.  A day later and it would have been repainting the engine.

[my73charger]

Not to overstate the obvious but they obviously lack quality control where these are manufactured.  I wonder if they have a crappy casting?  It would be interesting to be able to compare one of the units from one of the guys that are not experiencing problems with a unit like Ron pulled from his.  You have to wonder why the units with small ports are that way to begin with.  I guess my point or thought is, I wonder how they could have units that perform ok and others that don't?  I am glad Ron brought this issue to light.  It might save alot of heartache.

[Chatt69chgr]

I see that Summit Racing sells the Mopar Perf aluminum water pump housing, P/N P4286900 ($169) and their own brand SUM-314441 ($139).  Mancini sells both the MP version and their own brand MRE-86900 ($89).  Has anybody bought one of these and not installed it yet?  Would be interesting to know if the same problem is present that has been found with the 440Source piece.  Of course, there could be other internal deficiencies.  Only real true test is to flow all of them.  I have one of the 440Source housings and pumps on the 440 I'm building.  Looks like I have just lost $100.  I would still like to run a aluminum housing if one of them turns out to flow as good as the original cast iron piece.  I'll probably go with the Milodon pump for that part along with the Milodon high volume thermostat.  Great thread.

[Belgium R/T -68]

I have the Summit one and thinking of remove it since I didn't start up the engine yet and my radiator is not installed.
I do have some old stock ones to compare with if you think it woould be easy to notice any differences.

Per

[firefighter3931]

I have the Summit one and thinking of remove it since I didn't start up the engine yet and my radiator is not installed.
I do have some old stock ones to compare with if you think it woould be easy to notice any differences.

Per

Per....use your stock housing to compare. Pay close attention to the lower passenger side opening on the aftermarket housing....on mine there was a big difference. 


Ron

[my73charger]

Has anyone had a chance to check one of the new MP housings yet?  Ron, do you know of any differences between the stock iron housings from year to year?

I wonder who manufactures the housing from Bouchillon Performance...  I might call and ask them.

http://www.bouchillonperformance.com/

[firefighter3931]

What I dont get is my engine temp was great on the dyno with the 440 scorce water pump, right around 168.

A water restriction issue that causes overheating would not show up on the dyno....you have an unlimited supply of cold water to keep the engine cool. 



Ron

[lisiecki1]

What I dont get is my engine temp was great on the dyno with the 440 scorce water pump, right around 168.

A water restriction issue that causes overheating would not show up on the dyno....you have an unlimited supply of cold water to keep the engine cool. 



Ron

that answers my question too 

[turbobitt]

What I dont get is my engine temp was great on the dyno with the 440 scorce water pump, right around 168.

A water restriction issue that causes overheating would not show up on the dyno....you have an unlimited supply of cold water to keep the engine cool. 



Ron

This statement is incorrect since most , if not all dyno's use a water to water heat exchange system that still requires the water pump to flow water through the engine. The "Unlimited" water supply is on one side of the heat exchange system but not the engine side. If the water pump didn't turn in the dyno, it would still overheat. So if there was a flow restriction on the dyno, the same would happen.

[Musicman]

This statement is incorrect since most , if not all dyno's use a water to water heat exchange system that still requires the water pump to flow water through the engine. The "Unlimited" water supply is on one side of the heat exchange system but not the engine side. If the water pump didn't turn in the dyno, it would still overheat. So if there was a flow restriction on the dyno, the same would happen.

Sorry, but that is an incorrect statement since the purpose of a fluid heat exchanger is to provide a constant source of cooling water which is used to control and remove the heat from the engines cooling system fluids. It's like sticking your radiator in a barrel full of unlimited supply of icewater, it will never get hot, and therefore the cooling water entering the engine will never be hot. You use the flow rate and temperature of the water flowing through the heat exchanger to control the temperature of the secondary system, which in this case is your engines cooling system.

[firefighter3931]

What I dont get is my engine temp was great on the dyno with the 440 scorce water pump, right around 168.

A water restriction issue that causes overheating would not show up on the dyno....you have an unlimited supply of cold water to keep the engine cool. 



Ron

This statement is incorrect since most , if not all dyno's use a water to water heat exchange system that still requires the water pump to flow water through the engine. The "Unlimited" water supply is on one side of the heat exchange system but not the engine side. If the water pump didn't turn in the dyno, it would still overheat. So if there was a flow restriction on the dyno, the same would happen.

I beg to differ 

If you have a 1000gal cold water supply you won't be constantly trying to cool superheated water that would be present in a closed system such that is run in a car. As long as there is enough circulation to supply fresh cool water there should be no overheating that could be attributed to poor flow....unless that flow was non existant. The example you use illustrating a non functional waterpump is valid....but that is not the case in this instance...there is some flow but it is restricted. Think of a dyno water supply as a Lake with unlimited resources....



Ron

[firefighter3931]

Turbobitt....i'm not sure comparing a Hemi to a wedge is even a valid/fair comparison. The larger hemi cylinder head casting holds more coolant than a wedge head due to it's mass....how much more I don't know. It's quite possible that the extra capacity and better chamber design has some influence on the rate of thermal transfer.  An interesting test would be to measure coolant temps inside the heads (wedge vs hemi) with a thermal probe and compare....not really practical but it would shed some light on the discussion.

Ron


Ps. I'm glad to hear your's is working fine. Are you satisfied with the coolant flow across the top of the tank with the stat open ? That to me is the key factor in this discussion. I can tell you that poor flow in a wedge head build equals increased operating temps and radiant heat....no doubt about it in my mind.