Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !

[Musicman]

I ended up with a rather interesting cooling system for my 505/6-Pack, maybe I'll do a post on it here sometime in the near future. 

[Steve P.]

TEASE.... 

[mauve66]

I ended up with a rather interesting cooling system for my 505/6-Pack, maybe I'll do a post on it here sometime in the near future. 

yeah sure, what ever............. it never leaves the garage anyhow.............. oh............ uh............ wait a minute.............. that didn't come out right..................

[Ghoste]

Just how far was the "near" future?  hint hint

[mauve66]

at this rate i think i'm gaining on him, too many vacations for him lately..........................

[Musicman]

Hey... I just got back on here the other day 
I have been busy with other projects all summer... Oh yeah, and there was that Vacation to Bermuda 
The Charger project won't start up again until sometime next week... I need a body shop now.

Anywho... here's a quick description of the 505-6's current cooling system (I'm still playing with a few things).

Kitten Cam 505-6
Aftermarket Aluminum Pump Housing from Mancini Racing ( “slightly better” casting than 440 Source unit, but not by much )
Thermostat Delete (replaced with Coolant Temp Sensor)
55 GPM Electric Water Pump from Philadelphia Racing Products
19” X 28” Northern Race Pro Radiator
18” Perma-Cool HP Electric Fan
Temp sensor is connected to a digital controller which operates both pump & fan. Controller cycles water pump using varying voltages of 6-12 volts (varying speed), and at various run cycles ranging anywhere from “10 seconds ON - 30 seconds OFF”, to full “Continuous Operation” depending on the Set Temperature (desired) in relation to Actual Engine Temperature. The Fan only cycles ON when/if the Radiator and Water Pump alone cannot maintain the preset engine temperature.(Stuck in Hot Summer Traffic)
Using this system I have been able to maintain 165 degree engine temps with the engine mounted on a test stand, sitting outside on the blacktop in the baking sun, running during the hottest days of summer, with no other external means of cooling.
Controller also has a 2 minute after-run feature which keeps the cooling system operational for up to 2 minutes (if necessary) after the engine is shut down. My own tests have shown that 30 - 60 seconds is about all the time that is required to cool the engine 5 or 10 degrees below the operational set point, eliminating the issue of fuel boiling over in the carburetor after shutdown.

That's all I have for you at the moment. I'll be in and out here as time permits.

[Ghoste]

Interesting, especially he part about fuel percolation.

[JB400]

Some guys just have to have all the accessories.  For me personally, I'd rather be able to walk into an auto parts store and pull the parts I need off the shelf and not wait 3 weeks to fix it.

[Musicman]

For me personally, I'd rather be able to walk into an auto parts store and pull the parts I need off the shelf and not wait 3 weeks to fix it.

Agreed... You'll get no argument from me. 

The idea of going 100% electric was made way back when however, in the beginning of this post after testing various water pumps. Many modern cars have already switched to 100% electric systems these days, so I thought I'd give it a try and see what I could do. It's been more of a science experiment really, and it's probably twice the cost of a mechanical system, but it does have it's advantages.

[JB400]

For me personally, I'd rather be able to walk into an auto parts store and pull the parts I need off the shelf and not wait 3 weeks to fix it.

Agreed... You'll get no argument from me. 

The idea of going 100% electric was made way back when however, in the beginning of this post after testing various water pumps. Many modern cars have already switched to 100% electric systems these days, so I thought I'd give it a try and see what I could do. It's been more of a science experiment really, and it's probably twice the cost of a mechanical system, but it does have it's advantages.

Nothing wrong with playing.  Never know what might come about.

[mauve66]

i've always wondered about an electric pump also, very interested in future news, wish we had known more about this earlier in the summer, we would of been bugging you more..............................

[Musicman]

i've always wondered about an electric pump also, very interested in future news, wish we had known more about this earlier in the summer, we would of been bugging you more..............................

As I mentioned way back when in this post (Sept. 2009)... I saw the electric water pump as the ideal solution, but I was also concerned with longevity. We've all heard the stories in the past... Modern day electric pumps seem to last just as long as any other design however. Just the same, there is no need to run a pump at max capacity all the time when it's not required.

[Supercharged Riot]

I didnt buy a 440 Source water pump housing, but I did buy a couple other ones to show you guys a comparison

You can make your own conclusions after visually comparing OEM from aftermarket water pump housings

Check out my new thread
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,96616.0.html

[fy469rtse]

As some of you know my Project Car aka the Black Pig was recently completed and i am in the tuning de-bugging stage. I was having some serious heat issues and tried a bunch of things to help cool it down. It has plenty of cooling capacity with a new dual pass aluminum rad so i was pretty sure that wasn't the issue.

The one thing that struck me as odd was the amount of radiant heat coming off the top of the engine....there was a ton of it. I've been around and tuned enough 440's to know that this wasn't normal. I started by replacing the 2000cfm pusher fan with a 3000cfm puller and that seemed to help somewhat but there was still lots of heat on the top end. I suspected the thermostat so i swapped in another one with basicly no change. I verified that both stats were functioning by testing them in boiling water and verified the open temps with my infrared heat gun...both worked fine. Thanks for the tip Ron , have dyno my engine , 511 stoker like yours, have not ran it it the car yet , got a friend with a big block challenger doing similar things to what you described, we have been scratching our heads on this one, good point to this one , run your vacuum advance, helps calm a big cam at idle and also reduce the heat

Basicly, it would idle at 190* but out on the road the temps would spike and bounce between 180* and 210* almost instantaneously....like over a 5 second time frame. Normally when engine temps spike out on the road it's an airflow/obstruction issue with the radiator but this was different. I finally reasoned that there was an air/steam pocket in the cooling system and as that pocket moved around and the hot steam hit the water temp sensors it was creating the spiked temps. This made sense and explained why the guages were reading the way they were but didn't explain why the air pockets were forming despite repeated attempts to purge the cooling system. The fact that the top end of the engine was so hot was a clue and i figured that the coolant wasn't being circulated fast enough so it was boiling inside the engine creating the air pockets....but why was this happening ?  

So, i'm on the phone discussing this problem with Dwayne @ Porter Racing heads and he's asking the usual questions :

(1) enough rad....yep, dual pass aluminum
(2) thermostat defective...nope, tried 2 of them and both open fully as they should
(3) tuning issues...nope, timing is perfect and jetting is good, if anything it's slightly rich...not lean
(4) vacuum leak....nope, checked that and vacuum is low but rock steady

So as the conversation progresses Dwayne asks me what water pump and housing is on the engine....same one we dynoed the engine with ?

Nope....I upgrade to a fancy aluminum 440Source housing and pump. Dwayne proceeds to groan and suggests that i inspect the housing very closely. Why...the housing looks great and it's new and what the heck could be the problem ? Apparently he had one of those housings in the shop for a customer's FAST 511 build and didn't like what he saw. Externally the housing looks fine but the engine supply ports (lower openings) are very restrictive. You're kidding right....how can this be ? Nope...they are poorly designed and you'll see it yourself once you pull the pump housing and stick your fingers down the hole.  

So, over the w/e i pulled the rad and all the front acessories off the engine to have a peek...sure enough the lower (supply) ports were very small. I compared this to the stock housing and it was like night and day ! On the stock housing i could easily get 2 or more fingers all the way into the hole but on the Source housing i could only get one finger in maybe an inch and it was jammed....WTH !!!  

Looking at the two housings and comparing them it was apparant that the factory housing is a much better design ; the water passage makes a gentle radiused curve into the block and has lots of volume. The Source housing has a sharp 90* bend and the water passage is pinched off to maybe 20-30% of the inlet opening. Geez...what a PISS POOR design this POS is. That can't be good for coolant circulation and explains why the coolant was boiling inside the block....it was staying in there too long and forming steam pockets.  

So, i re-installed the factory housing with my favorite Milodon water pump and fired it up. The engine ran for 20 minutes and hit 180* sitting there idleing in 108*F ambiant air temps....today was the hottest day of the summer by far....a real scorcher. I immediately noticed that the high radiant heat off the top end of the engine was gone...despite this being the hottest day i had ran the engine so far this year....the last time i ran it the air temp was 80*F. Looking at the coolant flow across the top of the rad i noticed immediately that there was a huge difference in flow....the coolant was circualting like it should be instead of just casually coasting by...which it had been with the 440 Source pump & housing. Encouraged by this i decided to take the car out for a drive to see how it would run....if it could run ok in 108* temps and not overheat...what more could you ask....that's about as bad as it can get ! So off i go for a cruise and it's running great....at speed the temp drops to 175* and holds that temp no problem. I try it in some slow moving traffic and the temp creeps up to 195*....not bad ! As soon as the car begins moving again.....the guage drops back to 175-180 and holds....Right On !!!!!


So, based on these results and close inspection of the 440 Source waterpump housing it's safe to assume that there is a major design flaw. If anybody is running this piece and has noticed increased temps and overheating you now know where to look. I have to give Kudo's to Dwayne for pointing me in the right direction. I hadn't considered that there was a problem with the design of this part because it visually looks good and i just assumed that the internal dimensions would be identical if not superior to the stock housing.....this is absolutely not the case.  


Hopefully this helps those members who may be experiencing overheat issues and if you are running one of these Chinese knockoffs my advice is to replace it asap....or at least compare it to the stock housing to see what you've got.


Sorry for the long winded post but i wanted to give an accurate description of the troubleshooting process and how the problem was isolated and ultimately resolved.



Ron

[Daytona Guy]

Suck suck suck - I bought a 440 soure water pump aluminum housing and the HEMI is over heating, and the radiator is not getting hot water through it. Then I read this trying to follow my instincts - I did not like the cast sweral impellers - then I read the 440 source issues. Tomorrow the 440 soure is coming off, and a good old cast iron stock one is going on it. I just hope I did not damage my Hemi

Dane

[Daytona Guy]

Here it is – an evaluation for water pumps...

Below you will see 4 water pumps for B and BR blocks.
From right to left my evaluation and opinion. But first I would like to say, the far right impeller that is a cast swirl – that is - take it and throw it back at anyone that wants to sell it to you. They are absolute crap. These housings are NOT designed for these types of impellers.

8 Blade impeller Cast Iron - Stock: This is the air conditioning water pump. There are 8 blades but they are smaller and add up to the same amount of blade surface as the 6 bladed pumps. Behind the blades it is smooth, with a channel to help the water flow without turbulence, or creating a pocket of water churning and causing restriction.

6 Blade impeller Cast Iron: This is a well done water pump, and I believe the best. The 6 blades add up to the same surface area as the 8 blades, and the blades are taller and helps to create a better flow without fighting itself. There is also a smooth surface behind the blades as the 8 bladed pump, with a channel to allow the water to flow smooth without turbulence.   It is my opinion that Chrysler engineers hit the nail on the head. Moving water through a motor is a complete system that understands radiator capacity, CFM air flow, timing of how long the water needs to be in the radiator to cool, and how long the water can stay moving through the block not getting too hot, or staying too cool. Just getting a pump with more blades or even more volume is not the answer to a better cooling system.

6 blade aluminum: Do not like them, but they do the job. I have one on my Daytona and it does great. The blades are longer, but carry the same surface value. They look more impressive because they are a longer blade, but that really means nothing. The drawback that I see is the area behind the blade. Because it is made of a softer metal, they have to reinforce it by giving it 8 ridges that cause turbulence and may restrict flow, or even produce drag or resistance, like a boat prop having to start from a stand still.

8 blade Swirl Cast Iron blade - aluminum: Its crap, it does not work, it will cause all kinds of problems. It does not draw water or circulate.  Someone needed to be fired.

The 440 source Housing seems OK after I pulled in and replaced it. The lower ports are fine and open, there is little to no difference even after measuring – the 440 Source channels seemed to run a little smaller, but not by much, that I see will ever make a difference. The thermostat opening is the restricted point so I do not see any problems using it again with the right pump.

Dane

[JB400]

Thanks for the heads up

[jb666]

Ron... Old thread but I had the identical problem as you first posted about yesterday... Except I am running a Mopar perf pump.  I'm ordering a new pump today.  For your application are you running a 160 or 180 t stat??

[firefighter3931]

Ron... Old thread but I had the identical problem as you first posted about yesterday... Except I am running a Mopar perf pump.  I'm ordering a new pump today.  For your application are you running a 160 or 180 t stat??

Hi Jeff, i'm running a 160* Milodon high flow stat with an electric fan that kicks in at 170* and the temp seems to stay ~ 175-180* with this set-up.


Ron

[jb666]

Thanks Ron... That's exactly what I just ordered.  Reading your 2009 post was identical to what I just had happen yesterday. In fact I've been chasing cooling issues for seasons.

[jb666]

One funny thing too.... Yesterday my coolant temp went from 86 to 150 before I left the driveway.... 5 minutes or less.

[fy469rtse]

Thanks to this and the work and information shared by a great group of people , ever so glad a good friend of mine who is one of you put me on to this site, pulled my water pump because of the overheating issues that have been posted, guess what ? Put the cooling package hemi 7 blade cast water pump on , left the 440 source housing, problem solved thanks to Ron and a few others who put the time in to share, Ron you are welcome at my house anytime , I put barbecue on , a few too many beers, but you will have to buy your own plane ticket to Melbourne australia, so in short guys , ditch the 440 source water pump and go with what the factory engineers had right to start with, old saying comes to mind , if it ain't broke don't fix it

[firefighter3931]

Thanks to this and the work and information shared by a great group of people , ever so glad a good friend of mine who is one of you put me on to this site, pulled my water pump because of the overheating issues that have been posted, guess what ? Put the cooling package hemi 7 blade cast water pump on , left the 440 source housing, problem solved thanks to Ron and a few others who put the time in to share, Ron you are welcome at my house anytime , I put barbecue on , a few too many beers, but you will have to buy your own plane ticket to Melbourne australia, so in short guys , ditch the 440 source water pump and go with what the factory engineers had right to start with, old saying comes to mind , if it ain't broke don't fix it

Glad to hear your issues are resolved !  From what i've been hearing lately....the Source housing design is better now with the upper cooling passage issue corrected. That's the good news 

Like you, i'm not inpressed with that curved vane impeller design and noticed a huge difference when I installed the Milodon HP waterpump that also has an anti-cavitation plate. The big wide blade impeller design is the best choice, in my opinion and it works well for those who use them based on feedback 

If i'm ever in Oz....i'll make sure to look you up for a ride in your sweet '69. Cheers, Mate 



Ron

[2Luke2]

Just wanted to chime in here and report that I ordered a new aluminum water pump and housing from Hughes engines and it looks like its the same unit as the 440source except it's stamped with PRW. I'm going to try to return the pump at the very least as I saw someone post some numbers for the housing and it looks good... any recommendations on a new pump?

I attached a couple of pictures of the one I got. It's still in the plastic.

[firefighter3931]

My alltime favorite pump is the Milidon HV unit which has an anti-cavitation plate welded on the impeller. 


Ron