Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !

[Steve P.]

I was just reading about the Taurus fan. I found an article that said it moves up to 4500 CFM. That's a ton, butttttt,,,,, it takes nearly 100 amps draw at start up. Can you say HOLY CRAP?? That would shut down most of our MSD's and waste batteries. Maybe if you were running a 150 amp charging system you could get away with it.

Time to look into the Chevette wagon fan. I'll let you know.. 

[kcederwall08]

That Taurus fan is origionally what I wanted to use on my car, but it was too big to fit between the rad and the water pump my motor. It's pretty thick and it didn't work for me but it may for you. I'm not sure

[TexasStroker]

No link...I'll search for some later though.

I know it is quite popular with some folks on Moparts and in retrofit applications.  I know it moves a lot of air and I don't *think* it pulls as many amps, but I could be wrong.

You can search moparts for it if you like...

[Steve P.]

I agree. It sounded crazy to me too, but that was what I read. I think they may just mean the initial bang to get the fan going. I know they also have some type of regulator thing for it. I should have copied it. 

[my73charger]

I didn't mean to hijack this thread by any means Ron.    Sorry about that.  I did a little research on that fan and it only pulls up to 100 at startup.  It then pulls about 33 amps constant.  I will need to buy a Bosch relay switch to wire it to.  I want to be able to shut the fan off at will because I like to shut it off before I launch at the track to save power.  I can cut up to 2/10ths off my time at least with the current electric fan by doing this.  I then flip it on after I cross the traps.  Back to aluminum housing talk fellas.....  Any updates on that?

[Steve P.]

Ey-Ca-rumba. 100 Amps is a huge hit. It needs something to soften the start up. I would like to see the proper wiring for that fan and exactly what it is wired to.

[gordo1968charger]

i m having doubts about a 440 source stroker kit now

[my73charger]

Ey-Ca-rumba. 100 Amps is a huge hit. It needs something to soften the start up. I would like to see the proper wiring for that fan and exactly what it is wired to.

I read that besides a relay switch there is a soft start switch that can be purchased through Summit that starts the fan slow and lets it build up to avoid the huge amp pull.

[Ghoste]

Finally got a chance to inspect my 440Source housing and it is definitely one of the restricted ones.  I put a call into Mancinis to ask what theirs are like and what they can tell me.  I'll let you know.

[turbobitt]

I was taking a dyno vid today and the shop I was at had a new 440Source housing.  It was par with OE cast housings.  I brought it up and they pulled it out of the box, brand new, and it looked fine...the openings were quite large. 

They had one or two housings in the past as described with the small feed holes and sharp 90 degree turn...The unit fresh out of the box was NOT one of the housings causing so much trouble.

That's very interesting. I wonder if they recognized the problem and sourced them from another supplier ? That seems to be the way this company operates. 

I had mine out on the highway for a 60 minute run and maintained 3200rpm for the entire time....coolant temp was 180* with a 180* thermostat.  It's running a little warmer at idle (195-200*) than i'd like so i'm gonna try a few things to see if i can drop it down 10-15* or so then it'll be perfect. I suspect the rad is slightly small in cooling capacity for a 540hp 440. The more i read up on this stuff...the more i'm convinced that a cross flow rad is the better choice with a high HP application. Mine is a downflow reproduction dual core aluminum unit...fwiw

I can tell that this rad will be inadequate for my 572 so i'll be rad shopping again this winter...



Ron

Ron,
If your not stuck on a cross-flow, you may want to try a downflow from Wizzard Cooling. They are a direct bolt-in with no modifications and can be ordered with electric fans, Aluminum shroud or to accept the conventional plastic OE shroud. This made all the difference on my 572" motor. I had a repro brass/copper core radiator and it just wasn't enough.

[alcusswhen]

I have a MP housing on mine but it is also on the stand still.  I will go and take a look at that tonight.

Matt

The MP housing is made the same as the stock iron housing. I've heard enough bad about 440 source not to trade with them. As the old saying goes one gets what one pays for!

[Ghoste]

Given the mad rush of the last few years though to give all manufacturing over to the Chinese and their oh so wonderful quality control standards, I wouldn't be surprised if theMP ones are now being cast over their too.
Edelbrock does their aluminum casting still in the US, do they offer a housing? 

IMPORTANT NOTE:  I am not implying that the MP ones are being made overseas or are inferior.  I am sarcastically commenting that it wouldn't surprise me-nothing more.

[Musicman]

Sorry guys... I ran these critters to the max and it looks as though the problem lies with differences in pump performance and not the housings.

I used a rig with unrestricted 1-1/2" inlets and outlets, and 1" recirc lines that let the pumps flow to the physical limits of the housings. The housings seem to peak out at about 40 gallons per minute (a flow rate your vehicle will never see due to restrictions in the radiator, thermostat, engine block, hoses, etc). Trying to push the flow rates harder than this resulted in a lot of.... well for lack of a better understood term... Bucking. This information is just trivia of course, but still interesting to note.

That said... I ran the 2 pumps that I had (the stock 8 blade Mopar & 440 source HV unit) on the 3 housings that I had ( the 2 stock Mopar styles {Left & Right}, and the "restricted" 440 source unit), and in each and every case the pumps flowed the same irregardless of the housing they were mounted on. In other words, the stock Mopar pump flowed better than the 440 pump, but it still flowed the same irregardless of the housing. Changing housings had no effect on flow rates.

Note that as the rpm's increased, the 440 source pump started to catch up with the stock Mopar unit, but in the end it was still just a little behind... but not enough to care about.

Ron used a $90 Milodon HV pump on his housing which Milodon claims can flow up to 30% better than the stock unit. Unfortunately, I did not have one of these lying around to test that theory along side the other 2 pumps, so we will have to take Ron at his word when he says that the Milodon can move some water. Ron's word has always been good enough for me so I won't argue the fact.

There would appear to be a considerable difference in performance between one pump and the next, especially at the all important lower end of the rpm scale. This low rpm performance is very important because as we all know, an hot engine idling in traffic is no place for a pump with poor flow characteristics.

So... take it or leave it... that's what I got using the limited equipment at my disposal.

[Ghoste]

That of course, is what turbobitt has been saying.  This has been a very very interesting topic I must say.

[firefighter3931]

I was taking a dyno vid today and the shop I was at had a new 440Source housing.  It was par with OE cast housings.  I brought it up and they pulled it out of the box, brand new, and it looked fine...the openings were quite large. 

They had one or two housings in the past as described with the small feed holes and sharp 90 degree turn...The unit fresh out of the box was NOT one of the housings causing so much trouble.

That's very interesting. I wonder if they recognized the problem and sourced them from another supplier ? That seems to be the way this company operates. 

I had mine out on the highway for a 60 minute run and maintained 3200rpm for the entire time....coolant temp was 180* with a 180* thermostat.  It's running a little warmer at idle (195-200*) than i'd like so i'm gonna try a few things to see if i can drop it down 10-15* or so then it'll be perfect. I suspect the rad is slightly small in cooling capacity for a 540hp 440. The more i read up on this stuff...the more i'm convinced that a cross flow rad is the better choice with a high HP application. Mine is a downflow reproduction dual core aluminum unit...fwiw

I can tell that this rad will be inadequate for my 572 so i'll be rad shopping again this winter...



Ron

Ron,
If your not stuck on a cross-flow, you may want to try a downflow from Wizzard Cooling. They are a direct bolt-in with no modifications and can be ordered with electric fans, Aluminum shroud or to accept the conventional plastic OE shroud. This made all the difference on my 572" motor. I had a repro brass/copper core radiator and it just wasn't enough.

Thanks TurboBitt....i'd be interested in hearing more about your cooling system. Do you have a link ?


Thanks, Ron

[firefighter3931]

Sorry guys... I ran these critters to the max and it looks as though the problem lies with differences in pump performance and not the housings.

I used a rig with unrestricted 1-1/2" inlets and outlets, and 1" recirc lines that let the pumps flow to the physical limits of the housings. The housings seem to peak out at about 40 gallons per minute (a flow rate your vehicle will never see due to restrictions in the radiator, thermostat, engine block, hoses, etc). Trying to push the flow rates harder than this resulted in a lot of.... well for lack of a better understood term... Bucking. This information is just trivia of course, but still interesting to note.

That said... I ran the 2 pumps that I had (the stock 8 blade Mopar & 440 source HV unit) on the 3 housings that I had ( the 2 stock Mopar styles {Left & Right}, and the "restricted" 440 source unit), and in each and every case the pumps flowed the same irregardless of the housing they were mounted on. In other words, the stock Mopar pump flowed better than the 440 pump, but it still flowed the same irregardless of the housing. Changing housings had no effect on flow rates.

Note that as the rpm's increased, the 440 source pump started to catch up with the stock Mopar unit, but in the end it was still just a little behind... but not enough to care about.

Ron used a $90 Milodon HV pump on his housing which Milodon claims can flow up to 30% better than the stock unit. Unfortunately, I did not have one of these lying around to test that theory along side the other 2 pumps, so we will have to take Ron at his word when he says that the Milodon can move some water. Ron's word has always been good enough for me so I won't argue the fact.

There would appear to be a considerable difference in performance between one pump and the next, especially at the all important lower end of the rpm scale. This low rpm performance is very important because as we all know, an hot engine idling in traffic is no place for a pump with poor flow characteristics.

So... take it or leave it... that's what I got using the limited equipment at my disposal.

Thanks for the update Mike....that is excellent data ! 

When i did the swap on mine the pump and housings were swapped as units...it would have been nice to try the Milodon pump on the 440 source housing but it's too much a pain in the azz to do on my car. 

I know Steve P has been in contact with several aftermarket cooling manufacturers and the general concensus is that a restricted inlet opening is not a favorable design. Maybe we can get him to comment here.   


I will say that on my engine the higher flow made a big difference in operating temps and the difference in flow as visible to the naked eye was quite dramatic. I've used the Milodon pump on several engines with excellent results so i don't see any reason to switch at this point. I might give an Edelbrock Victor waterpump a try on the 572.


Ron

[turbobitt]

I was taking a dyno vid today and the shop I was at had a new 440Source housing.  It was par with OE cast housings.  I brought it up and they pulled it out of the box, brand new, and it looked fine...the openings were quite large. 

They had one or two housings in the past as described with the small feed holes and sharp 90 degree turn...The unit fresh out of the box was NOT one of the housings causing so much trouble.

That's very interesting. I wonder if they recognized the problem and sourced them from another supplier ? That seems to be the way this company operates. 

I had mine out on the highway for a 60 minute run and maintained 3200rpm for the entire time....coolant temp was 180* with a 180* thermostat.  It's running a little warmer at idle (195-200*) than i'd like so i'm gonna try a few things to see if i can drop it down 10-15* or so then it'll be perfect. I suspect the rad is slightly small in cooling capacity for a 540hp 440. The more i read up on this stuff...the more i'm convinced that a cross flow rad is the better choice with a high HP application. Mine is a downflow reproduction dual core aluminum unit...fwiw

I can tell that this rad will be inadequate for my 572 so i'll be rad shopping again this winter...



Ron

Ron,
If your not stuck on a cross-flow, you may want to try a downflow from Wizzard Cooling. They are a direct bolt-in with no modifications and can be ordered with electric fans, Aluminum shroud or to accept the conventional plastic OE shroud. This made all the difference on my 572" motor. I had a repro brass/copper core radiator and it just wasn't enough.

Thanks TurboBitt....i'd be interested in hearing more about your cooling system. Do you have a link ?


Thanks, Ron

This is there website
http://www.wizardcooling.com/
I talked with a guy named Scott. His contact info is
Scott Attig
Wizard Cooling
716-655-6760
I stayed away from the "be cool" since it required moving the battery and chopping/trimming the frame. There may be other bolt-ins that are just as good but I have no experience with them.

[turbobitt]

That of course, is what turbobitt has been saying.  This has been a very very interesting topic I must say.

I couldn't get around to accepting that the restriction in the housing was greater than the thermostat restriction. The combined flow area of the two restricted ports is larger that the thermostat at full open, or at least I think it is. I am glad that data has driven to a conclusive answer and maybe I'll try another pump on my engine to see if it lowers the temps and makes a change.

BTW, I had another 440 source housing/pump that was never used other than the one I have on the car now that I know works. Well, over the weekend I inspected the ports and it does look a little restrictive. I didn't have a OEM iron to compare it to but I see why it would stirr a concern. Given that there are other housings choices out there, I would look at buying something else just to be safe.

[Ghoste]

That's about where I'm at.  I have the 440Source one and it doesn't look good to me.  It's an expensive loss to just walk away from it but not as expensive as an engine.  I'm looking for a different housing and a different pump both.

[firefighter3931]

This is there website
http://www.wizardcooling.com/
I talked with a guy named Scott. His contact info is
Scott Attig
Wizard Cooling
716-655-6760
I stayed away from the "be cool" since it required moving the battery and chopping/trimming the frame. There may be other bolt-ins that are just as good but I have no experience with them.

Thanks for the link TB....i'm going to give them a serious look.  


Ron

[firefighter3931]

After reading Mike's report the comment on 40gpm max through the stock housing peaked my curiosity so i did a little research on electric pumps. Meziere sells 2 pumps for BB Chrysler applications ; 35 gpm & 55 GPM  The 55 GPM unit is recommended for 650hp + applications or forced induction. While it seems that the stock housing is all done at 40gpm the block and heads are capable of flowing more.

From the Meziere website :

"The standard 35 GPM pump is suitable for normally aspirated engines up to 650HP. Supercharged, turbocharged and high compression, high horsepower applications should use the 55GPM High Flow pump only. This model does not accept heater or bypass hoses as a standard. These may be added at the factory for an additional cost. "


Here is a link to the pump :  http://www.meziere.com/ps-689-0-WP106S16.aspx



Ron

[suntech]

I stayed away from the "be cool" since it required moving the battery and chopping/trimming the frame. There may be other bolt-ins that are just as good but I have no experience with them.

Have you checked out Griffin?? I have one from them, and i think that bolts right in. Looks a hell of a lot better too,

[Musicman]

OK... I found ten minutes... time for my comments 

Given a choice between the stock Mopar housing and the restricted version of the 440 housing, I would still choose the stock housing simply because it makes me feel better knowing that I have the better of the 2 installed. It's all strictly psychological of course, but I would still feel better about it in my own mind.
Obviously some of these aftermarket aluminum housings (440 source included) are just as nice as the originals... and apparently some of them (like the ones that Ron & I have) are not. That being the case, if I were in the market for a new aluminum pump housing, I would call ahead and notify the manufacture of this issue beforehand, and tell them that this item will be returned if it does not measure up. If they can't accept those terms, then I would move on to the next seller.

Where the electric alternatives are concerned... I have always liked the idea of having an electric water pump up front, but have always shied away from them because of all the stories I've heard about them burning up motors quicker than a jack rabbit on a date.
As far as their advertised flow ratings are concerned… I’m sorry, you might get 55 GPM out of that little bast*** if you stick one end of the pump in a pool, and let it just puke out the other end, but there ain’t no way on gods great earth that thing is going to move 55 gpm through your engines circulatory system.
My rig was pushing water through an unrestricted system with a 42 Pound, Continuous Duty, Industrial, Permanent Magnet DC Motor controlled by a speed controller with built in torque compensation… and it was all I could do to push 40 GPM through 1” ID cross connected tubing’s with 10” radius bends… and your telling me that a little bitty 6 amp 12 volt POS is going to outperform my test rig… I don’t think so. Not to mention the fact that a flow rate that high would push water through the block so frigg’n fast that your thermostat couldn’t possibly keep pace. By the time the dam t-stat opened up and closed again you would have undergone about a dozen complete water exchanges with no cooling cycles. Like most advertising, all that it means to me is that one pump will perform like a stock pump and the other one will perform more like a HV pump… or so they claim.
Don't get me wrong here, I still like the idea of an electric pump, I wish I had one, but moving any volume of water around your block is a lot of work for any motor, let alone a small high rpm motor…  It’s no wonder they have a reputation for burning out real quick, their doing a lot of work. Then of course there is the matter of cost. A good electric pump is not cheap.... but I still like em 

[mauve66]

hey Mike,  did we ever determine that your 440Source housing was the same as firefighters'? or possibly a different casting (year, month source) like some may suspect??

[Musicman]

Mine was just like Ron's... may have even come from the same lot, who knows