Anmeter spiking

[AmadeusCharger500]

Just put in a rebuilt engine. Did engine break in and all was good. Seemed to charge fine. Just before taking it to paint shop I decided my regulator wire ends needed replacing, blue and green wires, at the alternator. Drove it to the paint shop and noticed the anmeter spiked all the way to the right when I press on the gas and stayed severely to the right at idle. Now 2 months later I picked it up, Yeah New paint . and had a nervous drive home. I tried wrapping the wire ends with tape thinkin maybe they were shorting but didn't help. So drove it home and the dam thing was smoking behind the dash.

So where do I start?

[Nacho-RT74]

removing cluster, replace ammeter isolators around studs and tight nuts

check bulkhead terminals too.

if ammeter was full charge, mostly sure batt was some discharged

[AmadeusCharger500]

I cleaned the bulkhead terminals best I could. What should I check them for?

[Nacho-RT74]

dunno, I usually remove terminals from bulkhead to clean them up and use a sand paper to polish a little bit. Thne BEING SURE is correctly placed on bulkhead, Is not weird to have inserted on cavity by with tab loosen and when plugging the male, simply leaves the cavity.

However where exactly did come the smoke ?... you could get loosen ammeter studs and that burnt the isolation sheet.

it could be anything though, but I will look at those to spots first.

[y3chargerrt]

Samething happened to me. It was the connections on the regulator. I soldered on a new connector and it worked perfectly.

[AmadeusCharger500]

Is this the isolator you're referring to? The studs did not seem loose. The smoke was coming from behind the cluster in the upper right hand corner. It was hot to the touch right at the anmeter. It did not smoke on the 30 minute trip to the shop. But the guy had it for 2 months pulling it in and out of the paint booth and It smoked the entire 30 minute return trip.

[AmadeusCharger500]

Explain furthur y3. I suspected the regulator wiring first. Its old and has many cracks, thats why I replaced the terminals at the alternator.

[John_Kunkel]

The green wire supplies a variable ground from the regulator, if the green wire or its terminal finds a ground it will send the alternator into the full charge mode.

[Nacho-RT74]

yes, thats the insulator I was refering. I can't think on the paint guy guilt, juts was something it does happens on old cars at any moment.

John told how does work the double field and elect reg system and is something to work on.

will need to check further in to the ammeter gauge area and wires arriving to.

Everybody will tell about get rid of the ammeter. If you ask me is not necesary but allways is something to be checked on a resto job.

[Sixt8Chrgr]

I had the same thing happen to me and my VR was bad. Also check the battery and make sure it did not boil over and screw up your paint job. The over charging situation also fried my battery.

[AmadeusCharger500]

How do I replace that instulator? and should I try to replace the entire length of green field wire?

[Nacho-RT74]

Good question!!! I found somebody told me the name of that material... started a thread about that in electrical section but duinno remember if here or the 3rd gen board ? LOL. ANYWAY I will check INSIDE the cluster too.

you can replace the wire if you want but did you check IF ACTUALLY YOU NEED to replace it ?

[Nacho-RT74]

found it!
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,52968.0.html

[AmadeusCharger500]

Ok, now that my stupidinternet is back up (malware crash), I can follow this again.

So I replaced the broken masonite piece with what I thought worked. Let me explain to see if I may have fixed one problem. I used the ends of plastic concrete anchors, cut them to fit perfectly over the stud and bevel into the console to isolate them from contacting the sides. I then added a 1/8 thick rubber washer before attaching the 1st nut. reatached the wires and remaing nuts. I bound each wire with electric tape in place of the thick rubber isolators that had cracked from heat. I also found a bare spot in the one wire and taped that completely. I started the car and the anmeter went to normal charge mode (Yeah!!) as I let it run for a few minutes. Unfortunately I come back out to the garage the next day, start the car and the damn needle is spiking again (Boo!!).

Heres what I've done to recheck things.

1. try using another regulator_didn't change anything
2. Test the main black wire going to the alt to make sure there it is not being grounded.
3. Test continuity of the green wire and it is good.

So what now? Could it be a problem with the alternator? Or am I still looking for a problem behind the dash?

Thanks.

[73chgrSE]

Damn now mine started doing it too. What's going on? Solar flares? It spikes pretty hard when i accelerate. Not smoking though.

[b5blue]

Keep in mind what ever you use must not melt...at all! A hunk of circuit board, with printed circuit scraped off would be good.

[Nacho-RT74]

thats what I was to say, rubber pieces are not recomended to the ammeter, because IS NORMAL they get some heat.

then...

inmediatly after you start up the engine AMMETER NEEDLE WILL GO TO UP FULL CHARGE, is normal, untill batt gets fully charged again from the start up discharging. Depending on alternator, will take couple of minutes or 15-20 minutes. Alos depending how much time you were cranking the starter motor.

some good reading here:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.0.html

only I can tell is be sure everything is properly tight, clean and plugged. Check bulkhead big red and black wires. Use dielectric grease if you can, Polish/clean terminals. Good grounded regulator... everything as usual.

RECENTLY I fixed an ammeter. STUDS inside gauge where loosen from gauge an that cause LOT of problems.

[RAC95054]

I had a similar problem, and it ended up being the insulator on the *alternator* was loose, causing the pos terminal to intermittently short to ground.  Until it finally fully shorted and blew my fusable link.  If oyu haven't checked/replaced the alternator, try that.

-Russ

[AmadeusCharger500]

So I should check to make sure it did not melt inside? Ok Good idea on the circuit board will that really work?

[b5blue]

Yup check they get hot. It should they are made for taking some heat. Try radio shack maybe....if it will hold up to a soldering iron your OK.

[AmadeusCharger500]

Found a replacent masonite buffer from a donor console. Still spiking. Its funny though Im curious about how it acts. It spikes all the way to the right beyond the viewing range when rpms go above 1000. Once rpms go below like around 800 its just over to the right about 3/4. Btw battery has been totally recharged and it starts easy so this is not from starting. I'm gonna try changing the alt next I think.

[y3chargerrt]

I had a similar prblem recently. Ended up being a bad wire connection to the regulator.One of the 2 blue wires on the ign connector fell off when I tugged on it. I resoldered in another connector and it works great.

[AmadeusCharger500]

I've changed the alternator. Nothing happened. I'm now testing continuity from all the wires to the alternator and ground. Do I have this right there should be no continuity between any of the 3 wires black, green, blue, and a ground source on the body?
Because there is on the blue wire.

[elacruze]

I've changed the alternator. Nothing happened. I'm now testing continuity from all the wires to the alternator and ground. Do I have this right there should be no continuity between any of the 3 wires black, green, blue, and a ground source on the body?
Because there is on the blue wire.

You should be checking the Ohms reading on those wires, not merely continuity. From end to end including terminals, something has a poor connection if you find more than .5 Ohm.

A continuity test will not tell you if the circuit can pass any significant current. If you find high resistance, you can measure each section of circuit separately to find the sore connection.

One outside possibility is that if you're using a wet cell battery, you could have an intermittent short in one of the cells. I don't put wet batteries in anything anymore, the quality is so poor you can virtually gurantee a failure in 3 years or less, even on a daily driver. Wet cells never did like storage, and they're made so cheap now that a single complete discharge will sometimes ruin one. I use AGM batteries in everything anymore. (Optima is most common) they last much longer without discharging on the bench and tolerate discharge much better.
Additionally, they don't blow up or spill acid in your car.

[AmadeusCharger500]

I use an optima redtop on this car. I was actually checking with ohms (not the electrical genuis here) from the 1 end of the blue wire to ground and I was getting .065 on my meter and thats from the blue wire still attached to the regulator but disconnected from the alternator I checked at the alt end other end. I check from end to end and it shows as, not sure what the term is "complete resistance no circuit" Hmmmm this wiring harness is startin to make me think it needs replacing. This whole problem started when I replaced the ends on the alt side of the green and blue wires due to cracking insulation. Now I unwrapp the regulator side and find it is junk spliced into the blue wire connected to the ballast resistor. There are like 3 or 4 blue wires spliced together in this one place. Granted this car ran fine before the engine rebuild and even during breakin. But perhaps I should be thinkin about a new harness.

[elacruze]

...I check from end to end and it shows as, not sure what the term is "complete resistance no circuit"

...But perhaps I should be thinkin about a new harness.

I guess I'd measure that against the appearance of age damage, previous owner meddling, and cost of new harness. If it's one wire, you know it was meddled with, and you know the resistance is too high, you should be able to eliminate sections of that wire as good/bad, and fix the immediate problem. Then at least you can drive it while you decide what to do permanently.

Eric

[gschmidt211]

Do this:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

[elacruze]

Do this:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

I heartily second that. My instrument panel is at Redline gauges being restored, and I'm having the AMP changed over to Volt.
Still, a short-term resolution must be found if you're going to drive the car at all before switching over.

[Nacho-RT74]

make the MADELECTRICAL conversion won't save the REAL deal

[AmadeusCharger500]

Umm was that at yeah or neah from you Nacho? I guess I need to find the source of the problem 1st.
Im reading the article again now, very interesting.

Few new new things. I tested resistance on the blue wire and it was not good. Ended up totally split under some tape. Soldererd in a connector and its good now. Stilll not fix problem. I test resist from Body ground to all wires. I am finding the Black wire behind meter is showing 0.005 to body ground. This does not seem good to me so I disconnect from alt and try to trace it back. Disconnect bulkhead and the short to ground appears to be only between wire back of firewall to anmeter post. This would be the black wire.
Am I correct to assume this should not have continuity to ground?

[gschmidt211]

make the MADELECTRICAL conversion won't save the REAL deal

It will keep your dash from melting and is an easy afternoon job.

[Nacho-RT74]

make the MADELECTRICAL conversion won't save the REAL deal

It will keep your dash from melting and is an easy afternoon job.

check this and you will save all the problems still get a nice working gauge, reading, safe, and accurate CHARGING STATUS.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.0.html




The ammeter is NOT the problem, just probably a weak point IF YOU GET another problems around. But IS NOT the cause.

[Nacho-RT74]

ok, some testings and checks...

you can get a ground reading somehow with blue wire cause because the REGULATOR is grounded. Circuit runs like this:

ign switch blue wire ( positive )-----bulkhead-----splice to everywhere (ECU, Ballast, Reg, choke, Brush at alt )-----tracking up to alt brush blue wire------Field brush----rotor---THE OTHER BRUSH ( what feeds regulated ground )---- green wire---- regulator---- chassis ground


SOOOOO, if you try to test the blue wire with ground, YOU COULD GET SOMEHOW A THEORIC SHORT with ground.

Same about bulb... Bulb IS A SHORT THAN NEVER BLOWS, because there is not air, and is calculated to get heat.

If you test between the brushes ( just the brushes ) YOU WILL GET continuity. depending on alternator year, you can get between 5 and 15 ohms reading... thast because rotor is a coil, and both ends are both brushes

A reason to get power but not enough juice, and that produces weird spikes COULD IT BE ALSO THE DIODES BANK ( no matter wich pole ) making the rectifier circuit is lowered on capacity. Also a damaged stator, being a stator is  triple coil, each end getting one positive and one negative diode to recitfy ( converting from alternatin current to direct current )the power.

sorry if i'm not good as I would like trying to explain, but as you know is not my mother language and techincal parts are quite often hard to explain.

BLACK WIRE TO GROUND IS NOT GOOD.... that is the FULL BATTERY POWER. should it have TOTALLY ISOLATED.

Note that you can get some ground reading at black wire is some switch is ON ( lights or whatever ) because even the battery power is "grounded" when you turn on some device.

Somehow a low ohms like that is not normal. Be sure you test all the wires without anything working or turned on...

Remember also that even I consider myself not really bad with electricity I'm not an expert and I can be wrong anyway. Funny part is that I have the FSM and never read the testing procedures LOL

[AmadeusCharger500]

Cool yes I stopped worrying about the blue wire. I figured it was just part of a loop I just didn't understand. I had the battery pos cable hooked up when I did that test so that makes sense.

I isolated the black wire groung.  Disconnect at firewall from engine harness and disconnect from back of ampmeter. Still is reading as grounded. In one of those diagrams I see the black wire has factory splice to ingition and front lights. Not sure how to isolate where ground is coming from but only thing I could do simple is disconnect ingition harness. It reads not grounded but remaning section of black wire is still grounded. Oh and Battery negative and positive is disconnected when I do these tests. So somewhere between firewall and ampmeter end is problem?

[AmadeusCharger500]

I read through that page NAcho, and I'm wondering if I need to fix this ground problem before tackling the parralel wire setup.
Thanks,

Heath

[Nacho-RT74]

make the upgrade now won't affect on the result. You can if you want beging the upgrade now you are working at charging system

Remember make the upgrade INCLUDES new or upgraded alt. Thats the main reason to run the paralel wires. HONESTLY 80 amps alt IS ENOUGH. I run AC ( mainly low speed ) and halogen lights with stock lates 70s 60 amps ( around 10 amps more than stock earlier units ) and barelly gets discharge when stops at traffic light ( brake lights ) I got happy, but 80s is the best and will keep safe everything. 105 amps is not really necesary.


get continuity on black wire inside the cab could it be ANYTHING and even normal being all stuff is conected... remember you have domelight and doors open for example. That could give you continuity throught the bulb ( that doesn't mean a short )

as stated LOT of stuff can give you that reading:

-broken diode inside alt.
-one stator coil lead broken inside alt.
-ANYTHING loosen inside alt
-damaged regulator.
-bad ground at regulator
-damaged wires to fields
-loosen/damaged bulkhead terminals ( specially big red, big black and blue wires, specially the black one )
-starter relay nut loosen ( dirty terminals )
-ammeter terminals loosen/dirty

[AmadeusCharger500]

I have just replaced the alt in all this trouble. I believe it is 75 amps. I gotta reread the directions now

[Nacho-RT74]

I believe it is 75 amps.

I would like to get one stock unit like that

[AmadeusCharger500]

So all I need to do is run a parallel wire from alt stud to amp meter?
Not sure where the relays go since at one point it appears you say they should only go on the alt side and then another instance I think you say the battery side.

Is the whole process just running a parallel black wire from the alt to the stud and adding a relay?

[Nacho-RT74]

relays are for headlights upgrade and blower upgrade nothing to do with charging system beaside take the main power from alt side at ammeter. BUT THAT is a diff stuff from the charging upgrade.

parallel wire from alt to ammeter and from ammeter to starter relay stud with another fuse link in the middle

[AmadeusCharger500]

I just made the parallel wire running from alt stud to anmeter stud. I attached both new wire and old black wire to alt stud and only new wire to anmeter stud. Was just tryin to so if that did anything and it Did Not.
So 2 questions at this point.
1. Do I reatach original black wire to back of anmeter along with new wire?

2. Do I attach new wire from starter relay with new fusable link but also keep the old one in place?

[Nacho-RT74]

yes because:

1-the only way to feed from the new wire the splice to all the car what is STILL ( and allways will be there unless heavier modifications ) located on to the original wire running to ammeter from alt, is getting them, new and old wires, together on to amm stud. So if you don't splice both together in to amm stud, ALL THE LOAD THE CAR STILL WILL SUCK will be passing JUST BY the bulkhead terminals. The deal with this is not only charge the batt is also feed the car demand, safelly and with "headroom"

2-If that wasn't a problem and still you don't make it, both will be hanging around and would need to be isolated. why isolate them if they still can work the same as a reinforcement ?

3-More wiring to that function is better because all toghether will hang more load. The extra load will be running safe through the new wire without weak terminals so no need to worry about the bulkhead terminals.

4-extra wiring running to starter relay will support also the extra charge load in case of a really low charged batt.

[AmadeusCharger500]

Very good I understand now. I also spent another few hours doin problem solving and Finally fixed the spiking anmeter.