GM Laying off 30,000 Employees

[Sendero]

Reading this thread was like watching Crossfire. The GM issue and other similar situations are due many problems in our society and culture.

I work near the old Bethlehem Steel plant. The have closed shop due to import competition(globalism), Union enforced inefficiency, Corporate executive greed with mismanagement and unbelievable employee and officer entitlements that was like an anchor on their necks when they fell into hard times. In short, the employees wanted more and got it through their Union, the management wanted more (bonuses and retirement percs) and got it through their board of directors and the customer wanted cheaper prices and got it through their government's allowing imports without an import tax. (When an foreign company is government owned and its workers are paid slave labor wages with no benefits and is free from environmental and legal constraints, that is an unfair advantage that will decay our base. Beth had a high of 167,000  employees and by the mid-80's had 35,000 employees and 70,000 retirees and their dependents!

The executives of my current firm are exporting our jobs to India ( the new trend of corp. greed)...   and then getting a nice cut of the savings in their bonus. Nice.

Solution? Stop executive greed, stop employee greed, stop the customer from desiring cheaper goods from overseas ( consumer greed: WALMART anyone?) and stop the government officials from profiting from globalism. Stop greed through law ( Lawsuits) and stop wacky gov. regulations (keep the common sense ones. )

Right...fat chance because I want others to stop their greedy ways before I give up mine.

[Shakey]

Reading this thread was like watching Crossfire. The GM issue and other similar situations are due many problems in our society and culture.

I work near the old Bethlehem Steel plant. The have closed shop due to import competition(globalism), Union enforced inefficiency, Corporate executive greed with mismanagement and unbelievable employee and officer entitlements that was like an anchor on their necks when they fell into hard times. In short, the employees wanted more and got it through their Union, the management wanted more (bonuses and retirement percs) and got it through their board of directors and the customer wanted cheaper prices and got it through their government's allowing imports without an import tax. (When an foreign company is government owned and its workers are paid slave labor wages with no benefits and is free from environmental and legal constraints, that is an unfair advantage that will decay our base. Beth had a high of 167,000   employees and by the mid-80's had 35,000 employees and 70,000 retirees and their dependents!

The executives of my current firm are exporting our jobs to India ( the new trend of corp. greed)...   and then getting a nice cut of the savings in their bonus. Nice.

Solution? Stop executive greed, stop employee greed, stop the customer from desiring cheaper goods from overseas ( consumer greed: WALMART anyone?) and stop the government officials from profiting from globalism. Stop greed through law ( Lawsuits) and stop wacky gov. regulations (keep the common sense ones. )

Right...fat chance because I want others to stop their greedy ways before I give up mine.

Well said Sendero!

[73dodge]

Reading this thread was like watching Crossfire. The GM issue and other similar situations are due many problems in our society and culture.

I work near the old Bethlehem Steel plant. The have closed shop due to import competition(globalism), Union enforced inefficiency, Corporate executive greed with mismanagement and unbelievable employee and officer entitlements that was like an anchor on their necks when they fell into hard times. In short, the employees wanted more and got it through their Union, the management wanted more (bonuses and retirement percs) and got it through their board of directors and the customer wanted cheaper prices and got it through their government's allowing imports without an import tax. (When an foreign company is government owned and its workers are paid slave labor wages with no benefits and is free from environmental and legal constraints, that is an unfair advantage that will decay our base. Beth had a high of 167,000  employees and by the mid-80's had 35,000 employees and 70,000 retirees and their dependents!

The executives of my current firm are exporting our jobs to India ( the new trend of corp. greed)...  and then getting a nice cut of the savings in their bonus. Nice.

Solution? Stop executive greed, stop employee greed, stop the customer from desiring cheaper goods from overseas ( consumer greed: WALMART anyone?) and stop the government officials from profiting from globalism. Stop greed through law ( Lawsuits) and stop wacky gov. regulations (keep the common sense ones. )

Right...fat chance because I want others to stop their greedy ways before I give up mine.

why do you call it greed?

The current definition of greed is this in this country.

Greed defined by todays standard is this, "Anyone making more money than I do is obviously greedy, and anyone who is considered rich made their money on the backs of the poor people, people who are rich got there by dishonest means and the definition of rich is anyone making more money than me"

So if a person who worked to get a Harvard MBA and has been in the business running huge companies is obviously greedy.

My brother in law started a gutter business with 1 pickup truck and himself climbing ladders to install gutters, 10 years later he sells his profitable business for 3 million dollars. He by no means is greedy but many people here would look at his money and assume that about him because he is a millionare. To me he is the definition of the American Dream.

Unions are good examples of a socialist structured economy. No matter how hard you work or how little you get paid the same no matter what, and any pay increases you get are for just being alive and being on the line. I have worked in a Union in the past and I have been told by union stewards many a time " Why do you work so hard don't you know that I make more money than you and I don't do half as much work as you do?"  That's the problem you should not get a pay raise just because you punch a clock every day for 10 years in a row regardless of the quality of your workmanship. You should get a raise based on the quality of your work and work habits. I HATED seeing the guy with 26 years experience in the shop with seniority come in every day and his biggest challenge was to find a comfy spot to sleep where the bosses cannot find him!!!! And he could not get fired even if he killed someone on the job. And Oh by the way

I have done work for the union executives and they are some of the richest bastards alive living off YOUR union dues and sliding by taking money skimmed off the paychecks of the union rank and file.

Now tell me who is greedy?

[DC_1]

Well said 73dodge

[hemihead]

Funny how everyone that runs down Unions is usually sitting behind a desk pushing papers.I know people who have told me about the rough office jobs they have.Management today has the attitude that they are some kind of royality.Some here speak of Union workers doing nothing but take a look at some office employees.Most of their weekly time is spent at work on the internet on non- work related activities.Someone mentioned taking a guy from the top and teaching to work the production line but not the other way around?
First of all he would never do that.Labor work would be beneath them.Second , labor work everyday would kill him.
I have been Blue Collar all my life.I have a 138 I.Q. and I think I could handle a desk job just as good if not better than the typical paper pusher.
So, Gm profits are down?It is a nasty cycle.Corporate greed cuts jobs,farms out work to foreign countries for more profit but cries about lost sales on cars nobody wants or can afford because they aren't making wages from the same companies to afford the expensive cars.
And it just spirals downward.

[firefighter3931]

Funny how everyone that runs down Unions is usually sitting behind a desk pushing papers.I know people who have told me about the rough office jobs they have.

So, Gm profits are down?It is a nasty cycle.Corporate greed cuts jobs,farms out work to foreign countries for more profit but cries about lost sales on cars nobody wants or can afford because they aren't making wages from the same companies to afford the expensive cars.
And it just spirals downward.

The biggest critics are those that can't do the job or don't want it.  It's easy to sit in an ivory tower and armchair quarterback. As for Bill's comments regarding firefighting, yes there are slow times but we don't manufacture disasters....we just respond to them. When your house is burning, you're having a heart attack, you're in a car accident and need to be cut out who do you think is coming to save your butt ? Thats just scratching the surface of fire dept responsibilities.....there's also confined space, building collapse, high angle rescue, swift water rescue, hazardous material spills....and the list goes on....

Hemihead hit the nail on the head ;

Outsourcing is ruining the economy, period. As long as gov't allows this to continue, wages will drop and the expensive cars produced by the big 3 will become unobtainable to the average middle class working family. Corporate greed will ultimately lead to their own demise. 

Ron

[Troy]

So, my mom works at the Post Office (and so did I for a while). The unions there allow people to do basically nothing yet my mom kills herself working 110% and massive overtime to pick up the slack. Same deal with my stepfather but a different company. I now refuse to work anywhere that bases my raises/promotions on seniority instead of performance. If you have poor performance you should get fired and let someone willing to work take the job. There is enough blame to go around for this particular subject but, in the end, the company has to make the decision to change. They'll be bad guys for a while unless the company turns around. There's a simple concept which so many people forget: it takes everyone to make a company successful so infighting and politics only hastens the demise of the company and puts everyone out of a job. Just do your work, make the best product/service possible, and be thankful that you have a job willing to reward you for your efforts.

Troy

[Spartan]

I think today's management is not royalty, most in smaller companies have to roll up their sleeves and get dirty with the the guys on the floor. Maybe top management doesn't go out but most managers are doing more then pushing pencils today.   I have had plenty of guys who have come from the floor to office jobs say that they never new they had it so good on the floor.   I know few floor guys put the hours in I do on a daily basis, and being salary, I don't get paid any more or any less for the extra time.   To me its commitment to getting the job done and satisfying the customer.   

Its about accountability, and IMHO, the UAW are not accountable for the quality of work they do, especially for the wages they are earning.

[JimShine]

ChargerBill, I agree with you 100% I also feel another element is people do not want to work for money, but believe they require $XXXXX a year to live. We have gone from being the leaders of the industrial revolution to a nation of consumers looking to fill our houses up with as much crap as we can, so we look for the best prices available (which feeds the big box stores and overseas manufacture) as well as earn as much money as possible to make all these wants (thought of as needs) come true. Isn't it odd when things like collectables are outperforming the stock market, yet people bitch about the basic cost of living expenses? I am just as guilty of this as anyone else, but I am willing to admit it. Americans are horrible with handling money. Even our government can't handle it properly. Maybe if as a nation we learned to buy what we could afford and lived within our means we wouldn't require earning as much money as we think we need. If our government learned to live within its means perhaps our taxes would come down too.

[73dodge]

Funny how everyone that runs down Unions is usually sitting behind a desk pushing papers.I know people who have told me about the rough office jobs they have.Management today has the attitude that they are some kind of royality.Some here speak of Union workers doing nothing but take a look at some office employees.Most of their weekly time is spent at work on the internet on non- work related activities

I have met some managers that thought they were royalty but guess what, when the people that they managed revolted and complained they fired the manager. Plain and simple his job was based on performance and since his people hated him they canned him. I have worked for some crappy incompetant managers but the fact that they were morons did not affect my work ethic. I do a good job regardless of who the manager is. As a matter of fact my current manager is not the best I have had but because he's not so hot does not mean I can do a crappy job. I would get fired if my customers started complaining about my quality of work. If I was union it would not matter I could not get fired no matter what I did.

I also know of people that sit all day surfing the internet and their productivity shows that they do not do a good job and usually they get canned. I realize that these are not always the common situation where you work but that's life. But one thing I can say about union work is that there is ALWAYS 2-3 guys who I can gaurentee are slackers and the management cannot get rid of them no matter what. And they know it  too and take advantage of that situation.

But this was not a union verses non union thread.

so the bottom line is this

GM is not selling as many cars that they used to and they cannot continue to afford to give high end benfits to their workers. The bottom line  in EVERY business is that if you are losing money you look at cutting costs. Wages and benefits are costs. The more costs you cut the better your end of year profits are, the better your end of year profits are the more investors you have in the stock market. Then once you get profits you can invest them back into the company.

People buy cars you sell them a crappy product they will not buy from you again and look for a better product.

For everyday common items you look for the best price hench buying from Walmart. When you buy something that really expensive like a car you look for QUALITY. So if you can spend your 30,000 for a car you want a car with a good reputation for QUALITY for the money you are going to spend. Right now that's comes from Toyota, Honda and others. Spending 30,000 for an American POS just because you think you should make sure that the union line worker has better benefits than you and puts out a crap product is poor money management. If I am going to plunk down 30k on a car that car better damn well last me longer than the amount payments I have to make.

I own three US cars and one is a 2003 Dodge Caravan and it is by far the worst of the three, it makes me mad that after 31000 miles I have to put on brakes, a new battery and tires. Plus it has been in the shop 6 times now for repairs. My next new car will be a toyota.

[Charger_Fan]

My take on all this? I'm not making near enough money!
J/K


This has been a good read so far, you guys & I'm certainly happy to see virtually no flame factor too.
I've never been in a union, nor do I have any family members in a union, so my views thus far have been made from the outside looking in...looks like my assumptions were mostly correct.
I still won't buy a foreign car, I don't care if they have plants here in America, with American employees. To me, those employees are the only ones that are benefiting from the profits made from those cars (& nearby businesses who receive the money spent by those employees), the rest of the money ends up in pockets across the big pond.
I will continue to try to buy products made in America, like I always have. Just call me stubborn.

It saddens me to see our country going in the direction it's going, with what seems to be no immediate end in sight. I just hope things will turn around for the better by the time my kids are my age, so I don't have to worry about their futures.
I also feel badly for those folks who stand to lose their jobs.

Anyway, now that I've wasted 25 minutes of my bosses time, I'd better get back to work!  

[ChargerBill]

Troy, that's exactly what I was saying... Seniority based salaries and job security don't help the economy, they hinder it. I mean, if 90% of the peeople are slacking off, that means that 10% of the people have to work their @$$es OFF! You know what that tells me, inefficiency is built into the system, because if efficiency were top priority then unemployment would be well above 20%, cost of goods would be down and wages would be based on performance. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that scenario, because eventually the lazy @$$es would take the hint and actually work for their paychecks.

Jim, you're right too. Talk about creating your own pile of crap and standing proudly in it. We consume so much more than we need to. I see friends buying a new 58" HDTV when their Sony 42" flatscreen is only 3 years old! A buddy of mine HAD to own the 2006 Honda CR, and he already has a 2004 model... Me, I own a 46" Pioneer projector screen TV that was new in 1992, my Pioneer receiver is 1993, my Infinity speakers are circa 1994...they all still work, so what's the point of upgrading? Life is so much simpler and easier when you don't have too much crap to keep track of and maintain. I mean, how many people ACTUALLY use their Ski Boat, their Jet Skis, their RV, their Quads and their Sandbuggy enough to jusify owning them all? How many computers can the AVERAGE person use at once? Do you REALLY need a Walkman, a Discman, an iPod AND a cell phone that plays MP3's??

Until Americans take prode in a job well done and union power is dissolved and outsourced jobs come back into the country and we stop acting like little kids in a candy store everytime a new gadget or bobble comes out, things aren't going to change.

[General_01]

I love all these "facts" people debate with.90% of union employees are slackers. Where is this "fact" from? I have worked in union shops and non-union shops and I can tell you from my experience that slackers are everywhere. At least I knew I was going to get a pay increase at my union job. I just had integrity and worked for it. I also have integrity and work 100% everyday at my non-union jobs to get paid less and no sign of raises.

Also,as stated by firefighter, contracts are negotiated by the employer and the employee reps. Unions can ask for whatever they want, it doesn't mean they are going to get it.The company needs to agree also.

For those that think retirees don't deserve their retirement benifits, here is something to think about. I worked for UPS for 10 1/2 years. 9 were as a part-time sorter, the rest as a full time driver. As a part-timer, I always had a supervisor watching everything I did and was always told I could do better. I was told this when I sorted at speeds of 2200-2500 pkgs per hour. The desired speed was 2000 pkgs. per hour. Yet, I could still do better if I tried. I drove for my last 1 1/2 years there. I learned multiple routes as a cut-driver. I covered routes for drivers who were on vacation or sick. I covered one route for 3 months. The regular driver moved to a different route and I ran the route until a bid was put up and won by someone. This driver never took more than 105 stops. At the end of the 3 month stretch  I was doing 125 stops. Still, I could do better. I took over another route and turned a 90-95 stop route into a 105 stop route. Still, I can do more. Even though the company upped the stop count on these routes and I worked through lunch so I could leave my last pick-up and head in so I could go home, my bosses wanted more. 125 stops was turning into 135 stops and 1 to 1 1/2 hours of O/T a day. The 105 stops was turning into 115 stops and the same amount of O/T. I already would go home beat. Now I was expected to be home less. And just so you know, these numbers don't go down easily as you get older. I was 28 years old doing this. Could you imagine being 55-60 and trying to do this?Also, these stop counts don't go down in the winter when the roads are slicker and snow is plowed up on the curbs.  I have a buddy who is a couple of years older than me. He still works for UPS and has been driving since 1998. He has already had 1 shoulder surgery and this year his other shoulder has been giving him trouble. Why? Because power steering is a luxury for the driver and too much of an expense for the company.

I quit working there because I wanted to be able to attend games, after school programs and such for my kids. I felt this was a job for single people. Quite a few of the drivers I worked with were divorced and they told me the main reason was because of this job. I was already making $17/hr. If I had stayed for six more months, I would have been making $21/hr and there for life and most likely divorced. My wife liked the money I made. She just didn't like being a single parent. So don't bash what you see until you've been there.

[ChargerBill]

I love all these "facts" people debate with.90% of union employees are slackers. Where is this "fact" from? I have worked in union shops and non-union shops and I can tell you from my experience that slackers are everywhere. At least I knew I was going to get a pay increase at my union job. I just had integrity and worked for it. I also have integrity and work 100% everyday at my non-union jobs to get paid less and no sign of raises.

Also,as stated by firefighter, contracts are negotiated by the employer and the employee reps. Unions can ask for whatever they want, it doesn't mean they are going to get it.The company needs to agree also.

For those that think retirees don't deserve their retirement benifits, here is something to think about. I worked for UPS for 10 1/2 years. 9 were as a part-time sorter, the rest as a full time driver. As a part-timer, I always had a supervisor watching everything I did and was always told I could do better. I was told this when I sorted at speeds of 2200-2500 pkgs per hour. The desired speed was 2000 pkgs. per hour. Yet, I could still do better if I tried. I drove for my last 1 1/2 years there. I learned multiple routes as a cut-driver. I covered routes for drivers who were on vacation or sick. I covered one route for 3 months. The regular driver moved to a different route and I ran the route until a bid was put up and won by someone. This driver never took more than 105 stops. At the end of the 3 month stretch   I was doing 125 stops. Still, I could do better. I took over another route and turned a 90-95 stop route into a 105 stop route. Still, I can do more. Even though the company upped the stop count on these routes and I worked through lunch so I could leave my last pick-up and head in so I could go home, my bosses wanted more. 125 stops was turning into 135 stops and 1 to 1 1/2 hours of O/T a day. The 105 stops was turning into 115 stops and the same amount of O/T. I already would go home beat. Now I was expected to be home less. And just so you know, these numbers don't go down easily as you get older. I was 28 years old doing this. Could you imagine being 55-60 and trying to do this?Also, these stop counts don't go down in the winter when the roads are slicker and snow is plowed up on the curbs.   I have a buddy who is a couple of years older than me. He still works for UPS and has been driving since 1998. He has already had 1 shoulder surgery and this year his other shoulder has been giving him trouble. Why? Because power steering is a luxury for the driver and too much of an expense for the company.

I quit working there because I wanted to be able to attend games, after school programs and such for my kids. I felt this was a job for single people. Quite a few of the drivers I worked with were divorced and they told me the main reason was because of this job. I was already making $17/hr. If I had stayed for six more months, I would have been making $21/hr and there for life and most likely divorced. My wife liked the money I made. She just didn't like being a single parent. So don't bash what you see until you've been there.

General, I don't really see the case for retirement here...I thought you were in the process of making one.

After running the family business for 17 years I know ALL the UPS drivers in my area...I'm unimpressed. I would say that there are at least 3 of them that work hard, do their job efficiently and earn the $25 per hour (or better) pay they are getting. I know of at least 10 drivers who are a waste of space and a paycheck. One guy prides himself of snagging as many "diamond backs" a month as he can...great way to spend time on the clock. Another guy takes 2 hour lunches and hides in areas where his truck can't be seen. This same guy invites his GF to enjoy an "afternoon delight" with him whenever possible - another diamonback afficianado. There's this great driver who rides MotoX on weekends and if he gets hurt he waits until monday and drops a box or crushes his hand in a door and claims an on the job injury. THEN he collects his pay WITHOUT taxes and also has injury insurance (not sure what it's really called) that pays him as well. He makes MORE on injured reserve than he does at work...and he knows how to work the stupid system that labor union has set up. There's this one guy who's a SENIOR driver (about 16 years in making $30/hr) who gets stoned at the beginning of his route every day and is sober enough to clock out by the end of the day. Then there's this bozo who was stealing stuff off the truck. Him and his buddy had a great scam. The buddy would order expensive stuff from different companies via the internet using a Visa or MC. He would order more than one item at a time and then the driver would remove some of the items from the box and reseal it and deliver it to the buddies office. the friend would open the box in front of witnesses and find that the company "shorted" him on his order. He had witnesses to prove it...so the company would resend the items. Then they'd wait a week or two and resend the items for a full refund...PURE PROFIT. They got caught, but not until after about $200,000 in damage was done. Then there's this hick driver...he works hard enough, but is always bird doggin the chicks. He complains that he's working too many hours, but I bet he wastes 2 hours a day BSing with the ladies. And I could tell you stories about 5 more that I know about...and this is in just ONE town. Why do they act this way (except for the thief) because they know that they can't get fired. My 90% figure is a guess and an exaggeration, but I bet it's not far off. You see, people who aren't protected by unions know they could lose their job for poor performance...and THAT is the difference.

My challenge to anyone: Go to Safeway and see how fast the emplyees move and how helpful, cooperative and nice they are. Now go the Raley's and look for the same. I guarantee you that one is MUCH better than the other, and I bet you can guess why.

[Ponch ®]

I have a buddy who teaches at a HS in Sacramento...says it's the best job he's ever had. He has the students grade eachothers papers, he uses lessons from the years past, he shows the movies, documentaries and slideshows all the time. He smokes pot continuosly (says he's never stoned at work) says he gets to check out the hot 18 year olds and is about the laziest idiot I've ever known. He has tenure and can't get fired and makes about $52K per year with 3 months off. - Union Labor

maybe I should do the teaching thing for a couple of years...

[General_01]

Bill, I would guess that you haven't worked union jobs long. You don't seem to take the "Retaliatory Effect" into account. Anyone in a union sees this. At UPS, for example, it states in the contract that both parties have signed that supervisors are not allowed to sort unless they are demonstrating proper work methods to an employee or in "extreme circumstances". I had supervisors who would say the load would be light tonight, then ask if anyone would like to go home without pay. This is all fine and totally acceptable. If you don't need all your workers and some want to take the night off, that is fine with me. But, after about an hour into the shift, the supervisors would be sorting. If you said anything or filed a greivance over this, you were now given "Performance Evaluations".

Another example. Driver Supervisor's rode with drivers every so often to give evaluations. They would ride with you and are just supposed to sit there while you did your job. Instead, they would help carry packages, making two-trip deliveries into one, sort the packages in order of stop while you were delivering,etc. Of course you would get done earlier. Then you were told you could take 10 more stops on this route because you got done so early. Does that sound fair. It didn't to me.

I agree with you that it can be difficult to get rid of poor employees, but it is possible. UPS fired a few drivers during my time with them. Beleive me, if a company doesn't want you around there are ways. And don't kid yourself about those other drivers. If UPS wanted to get rid of them, they would. Part of the Driver Supervisors job entailed following drivers without the drivers knowledge and evaluating them.When UPS is ready to get rid of them, they will. If these drivers are doing what you say, then the Driver Supervisor is not doing his job either. I am not trying to justify these drivers, just saying that I have seen drivers fired.Also, I worked at a garage door company. This was non-union. I was hired at the same time as another guy. He was the laziest guy I have ever worked with. Even though the company had a two month probationary period, they kept him on. He missed about 4-5 days of work in that 2 months. He was late another 4-5 times. After about 2 months of making up for his lack of effort, I told him I was tired of doing that and to do his job or go find another one. His response was he wanted to go out back. The company's response was to write me up. So even lazy people get to keep their jobs in non-union jobs too. And we were making almost $12/hr, got 1 week vacation after 6 months, 2 weeks after a year, college paid for as long as it was something that could help you move up in the company. By the way, top pay was $13.30. Good pay for what we were doing in my opinion.

As for my point above Bill, it was this. UPS drivers and others put up with alot of bull. To say they do not deserve a retirement the company agreed to is ludacris. To blame it on unions is taking blame away from the company. Workers want as much as they can get. Company's want to give as little as they can. Workers want the company to continue on, but when you hear a company say they can't give you a raise, but post record profits, what is an employee to beleive. You think unions are bad for business. I think unions can be good for workers. Not everything can be perfect. If all people that owned businesses were always fair and paid what is fair, there would be no need for unions, but this is not always the case. There are a lot of good, fair people that own businesses and watch out for their employees. I commend these people. Then there are business owners who pay you unfairly and want your blood and say if you don't like it, hit the road.

[derailed]

General those are good points. Id also like to point out the benefits of unions as far as protecting workers as far as safety hazards go. Being in a unionized railroad, our unions have done a great deal for the workers as far as stuff like lodging goes when we are out of town on a run. Our union kept us out of a hotel  the company tried putting us in next door to a harley davidson dealer with a dyno in it and being that we mostly sleep during the day this didnt fly. We also had an unsafe taxi company transporting us from the terminal to the trains that our union fought and got rid of. The company was well aware of these issues but does not care because they were cheaper and thats all they look at. When it comes to flying on airlines or people operating trains with hazmat in them through your town do you really want the people working there forced to work under walmart conditions which is what it would become if they"dissolved the unions"

[ChargerBill]

Another example. Driver Supervisor's rode with drivers every so often to give evaluations. They would ride with you and are just supposed to sit there while you did your job. Instead, they would help carry packages, making two-trip deliveries into one, sort the packages in order of stop while you were delivering,etc. Of course you would get done earlier. Then you were told you could take 10 more stops on this route because you got done so early. Does that sound fair. It didn't to me.

I would have said something like,"Yea, it sure DOES go faster with an extra set of hands helping out." Personally I couldn't take crap like that. What would they do if you said something? And as far as a "Personal Evaluation" goes, what does that mean? Can they nit pick you and your performance? If so, don't you have an recourse?

Look, I'm not saying that unions don't have a place, all I'm saying is that they have overstepped their bounds and have far too much power. The reason that unions were formed in the first place was for the rights and protection of the workers. The role they play today is MUCH more intrusive and far reaching. I mean, they lobby for contracts, they back political candidates, they force benefit policies...it's ouut of control. And these retirement packages...some of them are getting paid better than the guys actually doing the same job that THEY retired from. Does that seem right to anyone? The guy sitting at home going to his mailbox every two weeks is making as good or better money and benefits combined than the guy actually working and supporting a family? I just don't see any justification for this. Sure, give retirement, but when your retired laborers are costing the company 30% of it's overhead then there's a problem IMO.

I'm kind of burnt out on this topic, so excuse me if I don't come back...I know where the other side stands and they know where i stand...mission accomplished. See ya

[Big Sugar]

I'm with Charger bill !!
     Unions have absolutely overstepped their boundaries , and have way too much control,over the employer as well as the employee.
GM's present situation is Largely caused by their poor forsite and blatant ignorance of the present/past- day competion. The Unions power over the Giant was no help either , like a noose wrapped around the neck tied to a anchor. GM will take years to regain any type of footing in this market.. Fords not too far behind.
Both Companies have reallied too much on their Truck,  SUV Division to keep them afloat. Totally oblivious to the rest of the marketshare. It's a real Shame for GM,  Cadillac is finally competitive in its marketplace and  Corvette  has put together it's first real performance car in 34 years!!.
  The recent announcement of layoffs in Gm's workforce is only a Childsize Bandaid on a slit wrist.!!
5 years from now they'll be out of Bandaids, looking for more Government supplied Childrens Bandaids !
              GM needs to clean house !! And it needs to be from the Top down !!
   You got to wonder how many chief executives offered to cut their healthy paychecks to help balance the books. Pigs at the trough, Just pigs at the trough.







Ron

[General_01]

I would have said something like,"Yea, it sure DOES go faster with an extra set of hands helping out." Personally I couldn't take crap like that. What would they do if you said something? And as far as a "Personal Evaluation" goes, what does that mean? Can they nit pick you and your performance? If so, don't you have an recourse?



Yes. Your recourse was the union if you so choose. Than you would get two 9 1/2 hour days, one 8 hour day, and then two more 9 1/2 hour days and so on as retaliation, because they can't work you more than 9 1/2 hours three consecutive days.

I will agree that sometimes the unions are involved in things I don't agree with, but the alternative didn't give me much hope there either. I didn't feel my managers gave a crap about me, just their bonuses and numbers. That's why I don't work there anymore.

[Sendero]

[

why do you call it greed?

The current definition of greed is this in this country.

Greed defined by todays standard is this, "Anyone making more money than I do is obviously greedy, and anyone who is considered rich made their money on the backs of the poor people, people who are rich got there by dishonest means and the definition of rich is anyone making more money than me"

So if a person who worked to get a Harvard MBA and has been in the business running huge companies is obviously greedy.

My brother in law started a gutter business with 1 pickup truck and himself climbing ladders to install gutters, 10 years later he sells his profitable business for 3 million dollars. He by no means is greedy but many people here would look at his money and assume that about him because he is a millionare. To me he is the definition of the American Dream.

Unions are good examples of a socialist structured economy. No matter how hard you work or how little you get paid the same no matter what, and any pay increases you get are for just being alive and being on the line. I have worked in a Union in the past and I have been told by union stewards many a time " Why do you work so hard don't you know that I make more money than you and I don't do half as much work as you do?"   That's the problem you should not get a pay raise just because you punch a clock every day for 10 years in a row regardless of the quality of your workmanship. You should get a raise based on the quality of your work and work habits. I HATED seeing the guy with 26 years experience in the shop with seniority come in every day and his biggest challenge was to find a comfy spot to sleep where the bosses cannot find him!!!! And he could not get fired even if he killed someone on the job. And Oh by the way

I have done work for the union executives and they are some of the richest bastards alive living off YOUR union dues and sliding by taking money skimmed off the paychecks of the union rank and file.

Now tell me who is greedy?

I have worked as a hourly farm hand, non-union factory worker, a unionized factory worker, U.S military (6-years enlisted). I have worked for a small company ( 8 employees and stayed till there where 32), I have worked at a medium size firm ( approx. 300) and work at a very large corporation as a salaried manager. I also have my own small business. I have performed work as a lineworker, direct staff supervisor and upper management roles.

With that said, I will clarify my point on greed. Avarice would be the appropriate word as it more accurately describes what we are discussing. Simply stated, the vice of greed is the want of something one does not have or one feels he/she does not have enough of. Avarice is greed taken to its next logical step; a level of greed where one's very existence ( knowingly or unknowingly)   is dedicated to enriching oneself to the point where harming others (financially, personally, physically) is permitted to achieve its end.   Avarice is not about saving for the future but about consuming all possible ..at all costs.

Your reference to Socialism is certainly a form of evil ( communism)   yet one can not hold pure capitalism as harmless. A capitalistic society, where ethics and morality do not act as the guide rails and ultimate goal, creates a different type of slavery. Yes, you get paid under capitalism but you are seen simply as a resource that can be used up as one deems required. Under a pure capitalistic society, humanity is stripped of it meaning and we become simply an expendable resource. The Irish slave miners of the 1800's is a good example of pure capitalism. Dumping a 20 year loyal employee so the company can save a few "dollars an hour" to a person in India is yet another example.

Speaking to your example of your brother-in-law. If he worked ethically and morally then his enrichment is fine, but let's hypothetically say he promised several employees that if they helped him get business off the ground   (less pay/ more hours), and in return, he would make sure they would share in the   later wealth of the company. He then secretly sold the company for 3 million and left the loyal employees hanging out to dry...would that be ethical and moral? No..but it would be capitalistic. On a grander scale   many corp. executives( Enron, Adelphia, MCI, etc) have demonstrated Avarice very clearly. The fact that there was a slew of them speaks ill of our society.

In conclusion, all I am saying is that without our society adopting a culture that is based on a strong set of morals and ethics, then Union graft, Executive avarice and employee greed will become more common in the future. It is not simply an issue of them vs. us; of scapegoating one segment of our population. Our culture is greedy because we allowed ourselves to become greedy.

[Todd Wilson]

Seems there is confusion about Unions being the all powerful in the world. Unions as a whole have lost ground and power over the years. They are not what they once were.   People get fired all the time from the railroad I work for. You do have some protection due to your union but you got to play the game and can be off work for years sometimes fighting it in a court like setting with railroad officials and Union people. Sometimes the railroad cuts off the head to get rid of the headache so to speak. You then figure out how you are going to live and pay bills while you fight it out. You cant just sit on your ass and not do anything and think you are protected because you are in a union. May have been that way in the old days but not anymore. Sex Harrassment and racial stuff is a very touchy subject as well. I do agree with Troy I believe it was with the facts that you can be a good worker and not get a raise for your hard work. You will only get what the union bargins for. There are people who work harder and better then others. DOT has cracked down on drugs and alcohol in the last 15-20 years. I really cant see UPS driviers doing what ChargerBill has said they do in recent years. Maybe the first part of the 17 years of the family business you may have seen that but not in the last few years.


As far as retirements are concerned most good retirement plans will go up a certain % with cost of living. You cant expect to retire at 65 with a certain $ amount and live to be 90 years old and think that amount at 65 will cover things 25 years later.

Most good retirement plans   out there have some form of money being taken out by employee and or matched by employer also. I would really like to hear from someone who works for GM to see how their plan is? We hear people complaining how GM has a certain cost per vehicle to cover health care and retirement. Where has this money gone over the years? Has it been saved or invested somewhere to earn interest or did GM use this money for other things and are now having trouble coming up with the cash to pay retirements?!

The railroad retirement has billions sitting in reserves while retired workers are collecting the retirement and workers now are paying in. You pay in a certain % according to what you make. The last 5 years you work they average your wages and thats what you get on retirement. You are vested after 5 years and cant think about collecting until 20 years of service and then its at a lower rate if you had to quite working due to health issues. After 30 years of service you can collect full retirement when you reach age 60.   

Perhaps the automakers retirement has been mis managed (must be a union problem certainly not management!) and the funds have been borrowed for other things and not paid back. Perhaps the funds havent been invested good. Perhaps too many people are collecting retirement too soon   like a lower retirement age or time worked (50 year old guy goes to work for GM and turns 60 and gets full retirement?) Lots of un answered questions here that we really need to know before we can bash the union/retirement plan of GM.


Todd

[Todd Wilson]

I'm with Charger bill !!
       Unions have absolutely overstepped their boundaries , and have way too much control,over the employer as well as the employee.
GM's present situation is Largely caused by their poor forsite and blatant ignorance of the present/past- day competion. The Unions power over the Giant was no help either , like a noose wrapped around the neck tied to a anchor.

What has the union done to make GM go into the toilet??!



Todd

[Big Sugar]

I'm not implying that the UAW/CAW is solely  responsible for the state of GM's affairs But they Certainly Don't help in this extremely competitive market, GM's cost per unit is not in line with most of the competition, Honda ,Toyota, BMW etc. Are By far more efficient at building Vehicles for the consumer.
In order for GM to adapt this method of building cars it would have to readjust it's way of handling  the employee's. This is where the Union Stands firmly in the way protecting the Lazy ass, Slackers,and the Me Me Me, Driven members.

I've been a Union Member for 24 years in the construction industry, and a forman for 21, I never have followed to the rule of Protecting the Brotherhood !! I Earn my Keep and when a so called Brother enters the force, and begins waving his rights  behind his Union card shield. He's out the door. I'm all for the company Union comes Third behind Family, I will not support those who do not support the Company
In turn the Company Supports me! After all  I can't pay my Dues without the Company

What has the union done to make GM go into the toilet?HuhHuhHuh?

GM has been stepping into the toilet all by itself for 30 years now. 




Ron

[Spartan]

Well said.  It should not be an us against them mentality within the company.  If the company profits, everyone profits.  The whole entitlement mentality has to go. 

I just had a big debate with my wife's family over the weekend about the big three vs the jap car companies.  They are big jap car fans, I have always bought US products; those car companies are putting food on my table but the big three has to get their efficiencies in line with the foreign car makers otherwise more US $$ will keep going overseas.......