Crankshaft endplay trouble

[COKE]

Hello Friends,

I think i have a pretty crankshaft endplay trouble on my 440.(Manual gearbox)
When the clutch is depressed ,the flywheel touchs in the starter pinion and the gears can´t be shifted(The noise is plaintive too)
I had to put a couple of washers between the starter and the bellhousing to get a bit of clearance for moving the car.

Can i meassure something without removing the engine from the car?
I have tried to meassure the endplay with a magnetic dial in the  chrankshaft nut while a friend depressed the clutch,and it read 0.005 inch.
I didn,t remove the belts.

Thanks a lot for any input

[flyinlow]

End play specs .002-.007" Max .010"   

  Is .005" all of it? Pry crank rearward with flywheel,then depress clutch and check total movement.

[COKE]

Using a couple of big screw drivers to make lever between the block and the flywheel ,i can push the crank 0.025 inchs toward the gearbox.

[firefighter3931]

Using a couple of big screw drivers to make lever between the block and the flywheel ,i can push the crank 0.025 inchs toward the gearbox.

The thrust bearing is bad....time to pull the engine. 



Ron

[COKE]

Will i have to machining the crank seats?

[oldkimmer]

..........No u dont..........pull the pan and just change the thrust bearing...........kim........

[flyinlow]

So you have .025" crankshaft endplay measured at the front of the crank.

Pull the pan and remove the #3 main cap. How dose it look?  If it looks normal measure the thrust thickness and compare it to a new bearing. Maybe someone can give you the dimension. 

Things that would make a thrust bearing wearout:  poor oil flow, riding the clutch,improper clutch adjustment ,tapered mainbearing journals

I don't have much experience with manual trans. cars.  Ron is correct about pulling the engine ,but if the wear is mostly in the bearing a new one might get you by for the summer driving season. 

[Challenger340]

Very sorry to hear your predicament, that sure isn't any fun.

If you do have to pull the Engine, and repair # 3, here's a "Little Trick" for next time that may help in the future, especially with Todays Oils, and a Clutch pushing on the Crank.

We see alot of 5500 Stall Race stuff with Ballooning Convertors, and/or very high Clutch Pressure Drag efforts, and the following procedure came about from those efforts, especially with Blown/Turbo'd SB Ferds, which always wanna push the Crank out the Radiator.

We've had very good success, and no problems at all with Thrust Brg. issues, by modifying the Thrust Bearing at the Parting Line, where the Bearings meet, with a small 45 degree chamfer along 1 Bearing Half Parting Line, to feed Oil from the Centre Brg. Groove hole OUTWARDS to the Thrust face.

NOT a huge chamfer, just about .060" wide at the mentioned 45 degree angle.

The Thrust Face is not "pressure fed" normally,
and this "chamfer", albeit very small,
will provide a "preventative" amount of Oil to the Thrust Face for added Lubrication above and beyond the normal "leakage only" Oil the Thrust Face gets.

You can File this Chamfer on the Brg. very carefully with a small File, and remember stroke in only 1 direction from the inside - "outwards", then when it's .060" wide, you can then gently polish your work with a fine "white Scotchbrite" pad and your finger.
Basically same procedure as relieving Brg's for High Radius stroker Cranks, albeit, this time you are doing it on the parting line instead of the Fillet area.

Many different methods to get this "chamfer", read up and pick the method you are most comfy with, point being, just add the parting line chamfer.

Again, sorry for the loss, hope this helps
Bob out.

[COKE]

Thanks to everybody.
Challenger340 it does help,off course.
The shop manual does talk something about to chamfering the bearing but i,m not sure  if it does refer to the same you´re explaining.
This is a very delicate job.The risk of damage the crankshaft is high if you are not an expert.

I read that  the engines with automatic transmissions behind are the most propense to suffering end play troubles, because sometimes they receive pressures from the t.converter wich the flex plates are not able to handle.
I belive that a big clutch pushing the flywheel will be worst,but this is just my opinion..

Fliyinlow,i have measured the clearance attaching the magnetic base to the oil pan or the gear box and  the micrometer touching the fly-wheel on it,s  both sides.
If i push the flywheel toward the rear it meassures 0.025.
If i push it toward the front it does read 0.015 or so.

[flyinlow]

Fliyinlow,i have measured the clearance attaching the magnetic base to the oil pan or the gear box and  the micrometer touching the fly-wheel on it,s  both sides.
If i push the flywheel toward the rear it meassures 0.025.
If i push it toward the front it does read 0.015 or so.



You can measure it this way but if the flywheel was loose that  could be part of your measurement.   End play: .025 minus .015 = .010"

That is max allowed ,but not out of limits.

If you measure at the dampner bolt you should get just the crankshaft endplay. Dial indicator plunger would be inline with the crankshaft centerline.

[COKE]

Hello again
I have meassured it at the front of the crank and the readings are similar.
I set the dial to "0" push the flywheel toward the rear ,ant it goes to 0.025 .
When i remove the lever ,it does back itself (Due the clutch pressure)to 0.004.
Then i push the flywheel toward the front and it arrives to "0" again.

Since i,m planning to swap the heads and the camshaft,what  i,m going to do is starting to pull the engine from the car and attach it to an engine stand.
It will be easier to looking for the solution with the engine out of the car.

Regards,

[firefighter3931]

It will be easier to looking for the solution with the engine out of the car.

pulling the engine is the best option. Often when a thrust bearing wipes out there is metal deposits in the oil. You need to inspect the main/rod bearings for damage and correct if necessary. 

Let us know what you find 


Ron

[COKE]

Thanks Ron,
I have decided to  pull the engine, mainly because i,m planning to swap the combo and install aluminium heads and other cam.So this is a good time for that .
I think that the bearings can be replaced with the engine on the car.
The trouble is to know what size of bearing you need or to know if your Crank has been  machined ,wich means that you are going to need oversized bearings.
I suppouse the only way is to remove the crank and meassure it using a micrometer.

Today i have started to remove all the junk
I,ll keep you updated

Regards

[COKE]

One step more,
The engine stand i have ,does not fit  this engine so i will have to wait  until i get another one for open the engine.






A small video about the end play.
Please ,tune your screen a bit brighterbecause it is very dark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cV0Q4UvQ0w&feature=channel_page

[COKE]

Hello again,
Sorry for the delay,too much bussy with other things .However i finally dissasembled the whole engine.
I found  one the crankshaft  side surfaces is  very rough and it has "eaten" the  thrust bearing copper race,that is the reason of the big end play.
It is not very well visible in the picture,but more or less you can figure what i mean.




To repair this surface and check the crankshaft aligment by a local shop is very expensive,without a 100% guarantee of a good result so i considering to buy a new one,maybe from Eagle.

Regards