Mufflerchoise

[TylerCharger69]

Forgot to ask....what about Magnaflow?

[c00nhunterjoe]

those appear to be the origonal 40 series muffler. if you want serious noise to go with your power then that is the muffler for you. i have that pair of mufflers on my car right now. you cant mistake my car coming. (and it does NOT sound like a mustang)  the only issue you should consider is interior sound levels. when cruising in my car you cannot hold a conversation with the person in the front seat. it is a screaming match to hear anything and that normally doesnt work.  mine are 3 inch vs 2.5 and i have a fair amount of motor behind them so that adds to it but they are a loud, aggressive muffler. 
the 2.5's will not be as bad and having tailpipes on the car will help as well.
if you want to have comfortable conversations on long cruises without headaches from the noise then i would suggest the 50 series mufflers.  but if you want raw aggressive sound then the 40 is for you.  just as a refresher here is my car with the 3 inch 40 series at idle and also a quick romp of the throttle.... the vid's dont do it justice, i wish you were closer to me so you could hear them for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL2-43vYDYs&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URuiPcB0Plw&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2j2qd2Deok&feature=channel_page

[Purple440]

I have Flowmaster 50's and it's damn loud in the cab.  I would trade that slapping higher pitched sound for some more HP, and will be in the future with some Dynomax mufflers as Ron suggested.

- Doug

[firefighter3931]

Sell the Flowbastards to some Chevy guy and run the Dynomax Turbo's. The Drone from a flowmaster muffler will drive you crazy after 20 minutes ....not to mention they will steal power from your engine.  



Ron

What is it about flowmasters that steal power?

Basicly, the piss poor design is what kills power...the Flowbastards are quite restrictive despite the so called "musclecar" sound. Sure way to slow your car down is to install a set of those.   


Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Ordered my Ultra Flows Thanks again Ron.

Per

[68 RT]

Does anyone have flow numbers for Flowmasters? What about dyno numbers? Same car with diffrent numbers?  Any good independent web sites on muffler info? Thanks!

[lisiecki1]

here's one.....

http://www.broaderperformance.com/muffler_flow_tests.htm

[c00nhunterjoe]

you are arguing over 19 cfm? thats crazy. and what flowmaster was tested? it just says 2 chamber.........

[c00nhunterjoe]

This test was performed by 5.0 Mustang & Super Fords Magazine, December 2002 issue (page 55) on a '90 Mustang LX coupe with 370hp and 11 second potential. 66 pulls were made for this comparison:

The results in HP order:
1.Flowtech Warlock (open) 374.2 hp/ 333.1 tq
2.Bassani Real Street 373.7 hp/ 333.8 tq
3.Hooker Maxflow 373.5 hp/ 333 tq
4.Borla XS 373.3 hp/ 332.6 tq
5.Magnaflow 372.8 / 332.5 tq
6.MAC 372.3 hp / 331.5 tq
7.Flowtech Afterburner 372.3 hp/ 330.1 tq
8.Hooker Aerochamber 372.1 hp/ 330.4 tq
9.Bassani 372 hp/ 333.5 tq
10.Spintech 371.6 hp/ 332.2 tq
11.Edelbrock Performer RPM 370.9 hp / 331.3 tq
12.Borla XR1 370 hp/ 334 tq
13.Flowtech Terminator 369.5 hp / 331.3 tq
14.Dynomax Ultra Flo 369.4 / 333.2 tq
15.Flowmaster 369.4 hp / 331.8 tq
16.Flowtech Warlock 366.3 hp / 325.3 tq
17.No muffs 365.2 hp / 330.1 tq
.................................................. .....................................

Sound Off in Quietest to Loudest (Decibels):
1.Borla XS, 80db at idle, 90db at 2,000 rpm, 110db at WOT.
2.Hooker Maxflow, 80db at idle, 90db at 2,000 rpm, 120db at WOT.
3.Magnaflow, 82db at idle, 91 at 2,000 rpm, 114db at WOT.
4.Flowmaster, 82db at idle, 93 at 2,000 rpm, 115db at WOT.
5.Flowtech Warlock, 83db at idle, 92 at 2,000 rpm, 112db at WOT.
6.Dynomax UltraFlo, 83db at idle, 94 at 2,000 rpm, 113db at WOT.
7.Borla XR1, 83db at idle, 96db at 2,000 rpm, 118db at WOT.
8.Bassani Street, 83db at idle, 96db at 2,000 rpm, 120db at WOT.
9.Edelbrock RPM, 84db at idle, 93db at 2,000 rpm, 118db at WOT.
10.Bassani Real Street, 84db at idle, 96db at 2,000 rpm, MAX. (120+db).
11.Flowtech Afterburner, 86db at idle, 94db at 2,000 rpm, 115db at WOT.
12.Flowtech Terminator, 86db at idle, 94db at 2,000 rpm, 119db at WOT.
13.Hooker Aerochamber, 87db at idle, 94db at 2,000 rpm, 114db at WOT.
14.SpinTech, 87db at idle, 97db at 2,000 rpm, 116db at WOT.
15.MAC, 87db at idle, 98db at 2,000 rpm, 119db at WOT.
16.No Muffler, 91db at idle, 103db at 2,000 rpm, MAX. (120+db).

[firefighter3931]

you are arguing over 19 cfm? thats crazy. and what flowmaster was tested? it just says 2 chamber.........

It's a LOT more than 19cfm....i don't believe that chart for a second ! 

Every car i've seen with Flowbastrds at the track has gone much quicker uncapped. A member here dropped 7 tenths by simply opening up his exhaust....ya he had Flowmasters. 


To contrast ; another aquaintance had a 69 Charger running mid 10's with a 630hp 493 and dropped the exhaust one day at the track. Result was no difference. He was running TTI headers and a full 3in x-pipe exhaust with Ultraflows. He reported that the car was actually a few hundredths quicker with the exhaust on despite the extra 70 lbs of weight of said exhaust system.

I've got a chart somewhere that i'll post when i can find it....stay tuned. 



Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

the next question i will have is the car that dropped 7 tenths by uncapping flowmasters? that is ridiculous. what size mufflers were they and what engine combo was he running?  i'm not arguing that flowmaster is the best of the best but i am going to fight that they are NOT junk and there is no way that if i remove the flowmasters from my car that i will gain 7 tenths. not possible. and if we fight this fight i will go to the track to prove it.

[firefighter3931]

the next question i will have is the car that dropped 7 tenths by uncapping flowmasters? that is ridiculous. what size mufflers were they and what engine combo was he running?  i'm not arguing that flowmaster is the best of the best but i am going to fight that they are NOT junk and there is no way that if i remove the flowmasters from my car that i will gain 7 tenths. not possible. and if we fight this fight i will go to the track to prove it.

The car in question was a 68 Charger with a solid cammed 493 and RPM heads. He had 2in TTI headers and straight  3in pipes that were 4 ft long going into flowmasters and dumps at the axle. You couldn't have asked for a more simple exhaust, no bends or curves....just straight to the mufflers ! Yep he went from 11.70's to 11.0's by simply removing the pipes/flowbastards. 

There are numerous other examples of the same thing happening. If someone gave me a set of Gold plated Flowmasters and paid me 2 grand to run them on my car i'd still say thanks....but NO Thanks. 



Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

i would personally think that a 500 cubic inch motor with 2 inch tubed headers should have more then a 3 inch pipe myself.
i run a 3 inch pipe on my mild 383.  i still say there is somehting hokey about a .7 drop from removing a set of flowmsaters. how much mph did he gain?   my money says the exhaust did not meet the needs of the engine, not poor muffler design. if the flowmasters were that restrictive then i should have the exact same thign happen if i ran my car and then removed the pipes because i have a nearly identical set of pipes on my car as he did.

[Purple440]

 

[c00nhunterjoe]

   hope thats not looking to watch a fight. i am actually enjoying a good hard debate for once. no hard feelings ron, i hope you are enjoying our debate as well.  if nothing else you will force me to go to the track for some test and tune

[firefighter3931]

i would personally think that a 500 cubic inch motor with 2 inch tubed headers should have more then a 3 inch pipe myself.
i run a 3 inch pipe on my mild 383.  i still say there is somehting hokey about a .7 drop from removing a set of flowmsaters. how much mph did he gain?   my money says the exhaust did not meet the needs of the engine, not poor muffler design. if the flowmasters were that restrictive then i should have the exact same thign happen if i ran my car and then removed the pipes because i have a nearly identical set of pipes on my car as he did.

Joe, i can't remember the difference off hand but it was significant.....like 7-8 mph increase at the stripe. 

Contrast that to the other guy with the solid cammed 493 who was also running a full 3in TTI exhaust system & Ultraflows right to the bumper....that car was 5 tenths quicker than the other car was on open headers with no exhaust.  A car that runs 10.50's with full exhaust is not having problems exhaling when it runs basicly the same ET without the exhaust installed.

INMO, a full 3in exhaust with the "right" muffler is fine to 650hp. 


The function/purpose of an exhaust sytem is not to create backpressure....it's sole purpose is to scavenge the cylinder and get the gases away from the exhaust port. Header primary diameter & tube length have much more to do with it than exhaust pipe diameter. Ideally you want the least amount of backpressure with the best scavenging effect for max performance.


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Here's a flow chart comparing some popular muffler choices available. Unfortunately, the UltraFlows aren't listed but they would flow in the same vacinity as the Borla's which are also a stright-thru design.


Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

now that chart gives the borla muffler 100cfm more then the chart listed on page 2 of this topic.....odd......

still, based on everything you are saying i will drop crazy time off of my et and pick up 7-8mph. i will get the car together and make a track day.  also, if someone is willing to send me these golden mufflers i will test them as well. open header vs my "flowbastards" vs the dynomax's.  i still say its bs that the flowmasters are as bad as you say. i have run my car open header and it is not any faster. BUT i have never had it to the track open header. so i will be forced to go to the track and thrash the car for your enjoyment.....

[lisiecki1]

the link i posted on page 2 was the first thing that popped up when i searched on the net, i didn't have time to verify it while i was at work....odds are it is either incorrect, or just plain old information.

Randy

[c00nhunterjoe]

i have googled alot on the mufflers and it seems that the hp numbers are the same between flow's and dynomax ultraflow's

[Purple440]

i have googled alot on the mufflers and it seems that the hp numbers are the same between flow's and dynomax ultraflow's

If you think about it - chambered mufflers restrict to improve sound.  Less sound would mean less restriction and more flow in that case.  You can't go off of Google to determine that, you need to listen to the guys who have actually tried both options.

[TexasStroker]

Muffler choice is very subjective.  You essentially have two camps:

Camp #1-Wants a certain sound
Camp #2-Wants a certain performance standard

For Camp #1, having that "sound" is worth giving up flow, peak power, and time/mph at the track.
For Camp #2, having the easier breathing that results in net gains in peak power or improved time takes priority over the "sound."

Then again you have those who are somewhat of a blend.  If the baddest muff on the market was approved by the sanctioning body but made your 500" Stroker sound like a 4 cylinder, I bet you'd see a lot o folks dropping down the performance ladder to go up a rung on the sound ladder.

It ultimately comes down to the individual and what they want for their car.

I know what I like and I stick to it...I went thru several sets of muffs on the Charger and the truck in my quest for what I like.  Turns out my favorite sound made the most power, go figure 

[firefighter3931]

still, based on everything you are saying i will drop crazy time off of my et and pick up 7-8mph.

Joe, i never said that you would drop 7 tenths and pick up 7-8 mph. 

On the car in question, which was making in the 570-580hp range....dropping the flows was worth those gains. 

I don't know how much power your engine makes or how fast it runs/ET's....but i bet it will show some improvement. Throw some 18in header extensions on it when you drop the exhaust. 

This is a general observation ; the more power the engine makes....the better the improvement by dropping the Flowmasters. The same can't be said of the Ultraflows....which seem to run just as fast if not faster in many instances.

Your milage may vary. 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

It ultimately comes down to the individual and what they want for their car.

Yep, some go for the "sound" while others go for performance. You can have both ! 

I know what I like and I stick to it...I went thru several sets of muffs on the Charger and the truck in my quest for what I like.  Turns out my favorite sound made the most power, go figure 

Ok TS, what did you end up going with ? 

How did you determine that they were the most powerful ? Chassis dyno ? Track results ? Seat of the pants ? 



Ron

[TexasStroker]

Well I must say there are similar sounds to a two chamber flowmaster THAT DO NOT RESONATE in the vehicle to near the extent.  There is nothing cool about having your car louder on the inside than on the outside imo.  Maybe some guys route their exhaust system or buy extra insualtion to keep that from happening now.  I love loud, always have always will, but to me there is a finite difference betwixt "loud" and an "annoying drone."  Both of my cars are "loud."  I can barely talk on the cell phone and hearing the person beside you at a stop light is a challenge.  I consider it part of the experience.  Despite how loud the cars are, I never have that "drone" in the vehicle. and the DBs certainly stay more confined to the exterior than the interior.  I don't find the noise unberable by any means, if so I'd swap.  Open headers are my flavor of choice, ane while cool some of the time, I don't think I could do it 365, lol.

Flowtech developed a lot of really good stuff prior to being bought out by Holley.  It is still on the market and a few bucks off the price of most comprable muffs.  In fact the cheap "two chamber" knock offs haven't droned in the vehicle like the flows I have been around.  If someone is going for "flow" Hooker has offerings like the Aero Chamber and Max Flow that due to the design and engineering put into the "performance" of the muffler will outperform straight pipe.  The Aero Chamber performs better, sounds better, and will stand out from the crowd.  The two chamber flow (yes you will gain power over a stock, restrictive system) has delta shaped baffles...They are designed to bounce the sound waves around and give folks their signature sound.  Compare the internals of the 40 2-chamber to the internals of an Aero Chamber...Now compare both to your typical straight thru glass pack.  Generally speaking the path of least resistance will flow the most air.  If you sink enough money into a muffler you can create effects that speed up the flow of air, improve scavenging, etc.  Again this will only concern someone who is after performance over sound.

I must stress that geography likely plays a role in muffler bias as well.  I'll admit when the first guy in town had 40 series 2 chambers on his truck, it was cool...it was loud and no one sounded like it.  Well factor in everyone in town going to the local muffler shop and there is nothing unique about the sound to me anymore.  It is played out and it is associated with chevy trucks and mustangs, end of story (this process took about a month).  Could that vary from region to region, absolutely. Maybe in different places everyone and their dog runs Super Turbos or SpinTech's out west.  Then would a two-chamber flow sound unique and good enough to put on a vehicle, I'm sure it would.

Personally, I do not like the drone of 2 chamber flows.  It is a very tin-can type sound if that makes sense.  I know others with flows that got tired of the resonance in their cab and switched to a different series (50, 3 Chamber, Delta Force etc) and while the resonance is down and the sound is similar, it isn't that signature sound that makes someone take notice.  That to me defeats the purpose.  I have heard flows on Mopars that sound good, you have to admit. Is it my personal flavor?  No.  By the same token I can't tell you the number of ple that tell me mine is too loud or 'should sound more like a flow.'  To each his own, and I am quite content with my setup as I hope everyone else is.

I want all out performance, sound however is a big criteria.  I would be one of those guys that would give up .1 tenth and 2 mph to NOT sound like a hot 4 cylinder...It is a big part of what makes the car imo, and that is not acceptable.  The exhaust set-up I finally settled on was from Dynomax, that is all I will say...Everyone should go thru the ropes and find what they really like, just as I did.  Did I blow money in my quest for the perfect muffler?  Yes.  Do I have fresh muffs sitting on the shelf in my shop?  Yes.  Do I have improved performance and what to me qualifies as a BA sound...You better believe it! 

I can't tell you how good it feels to get the "sound" down and know that you are on par to keep times low when you head to the track.

As for the performance, it is flow based.  To be honest, my muffs of choice seem to be down just a tad in the seat-meter region right off idle, but that worry went away when I got south of town and stood on it.  I always wanted to conduct a Mopar muffler shootout...Record power #s on a mule engine, record dbs, flow #s out the muff, and of course sound clips.  I kind of lack the facilities, equipment, and cash to make that happen.

This, I have always wanted to make a comprehensive Mopar Exhaust Database.  I used to push for it on Moparts, but it never really got going.  As time allows, I intend to make that part of the currently non-existent "tech" section on the AAM website.  I always try to tell ple how big of a hit maker that woud be, lol.

Believe me coonhunterjoe, your vids will sway a lot of fence-sitters over to the flowmaster camp.   

As I have said though, I will maintain...it all comes down to the individual and what they want in terms of performance and sound, and for some price.

I think everyone should filter thru as many leads online as possible and if financially capable take the plunge on a couple of options (do this one at a time though!).  If you get your Dynomax system and do not like the sound as well as you thought you would, pick up another muff and compare the two.  Repeat until happy and post the reslts 

I really wish I would have had a camera back in the day when i was doing all this.  Actually have no vids of the Charger as I tore down the trunk floor prior to owning a camera, lol.  That should change in the near future though!