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Beware of 440 Source/Parts for sale

Started by gasoline_24, July 28, 2009, 02:15:15 PM

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gasoline_24

I now have a set of billet steel main caps from 440 Source.  I tried to return them within 45 days and was told that they would return them but want a 25% restocking fee.  This was to take care of all of their time for packaging and unpackaging this part as well as running my credit card to charge me and credit me.  This seems to be a lot of work.  I told them that this seemed like theft and that I would rather sell them to somebody on this site for 25% less than to give them money for nothing.  I did point out that I would be posting this message and this had no effect on their position.  I would point out that they did offer to give me store credit for the full amount.  I don't need any further parts as I ordered them all during the initial order.  This also ruins their argument that their restocking fee is for time.  It is more like a we have your money and will not give it back unless we get to keep 25% of it.  In my world that is called theft.  You should not sell your parts on the internet if you are not willing to allow them to be returned.

Anyway if anyone wants to buy a set of billet main caps part number 200-1039 for $105.00 plus shipping, PM me and they are yours.  This is subject to a 25% restocking fee of course. 

Brickster

I had great success with 440 source and thier parts. Kim was very helpful, I didn't need to return anything. I think their part are very affordable and can't have as much profit margin as people think. I don't think it's too much to ask for people to make something for thier time. That is unless you're saying it is 440 source's problem why the parts need to be returned, then that would be a diferent situation. Just me two cents :Twocents:

Ghoste

As much as I hate to stick my nose in this, their website does seem to be pretty explicit about their return policies and fees.  I agree that 25% is a lot more than some places charge but there are also a lot of places with a no return at all policy even if it's the vendors fault.
Was the order screwed up from their end somehow?

TylerCharger69

Hmmmm.   I could see and understand the complaint IF the parts were defective or the wrong ones were sent.  Most places DO HAVE a restocking fee.  I have friends who have ordered from there (440 source) and the transactions were very successful and the parts were perfect.  You figure...there's employees running back and fourth in a warehouse for these mail orders, who are more than likely getting paid by the hour.  Not to mention, when an item is returned...not only does it have to be restocked, it also has to be logged back in the computer database, PLUS, needs to be checked for damage whether or not it was claimed to have any.  No...I don't agree with the fee being a percentage....
For instance...the main caps....well...let's say you were to order  something way more expensive, but has the same weight and/or size, then of course the restocking fee goes up, which I think is wrong.   It should be a flat rate, depending on size.  If the part was damaged....then yes....you'r right....it's highway robbery...but if it's just the decision that you decide not to use it and send it back...well...then  it HAS cost someone their time.

Banana Wama

The restocking fee is a percentage because when they ran the credit card they pay a transaction fee to a credit company based on a percentage of the total invoice.  Everyone has a different fee rate depending on thier contract.  Then when you return it they pay the same transaction fee again to credit you back.  Companys are not able to accept and run credit cards for free, they pay for that service as a percentage on every transaction, charge or return.  That's why most companys will refund in the form of check to avoid paying the fee to credit you back via the card.  

However, I agree that is too much! :yesnod:

TylerCharger69

that is correct!!!  More reasons as to why the restocking fees

rustafarian

Credit card companies charge 2% fee max,  AmEx is 4% -  whether you're charging the card or crediting it back.
Some dealerships try to pass that on to the customer,  we just limit you to $5000.00,  unless you're buying something worth less than $5K,  becuase you can drive out of here and then dispute the charge when buyers remorse hits.
25% restock fee seems high,  the norm is 15%
Beyond the Palace hemi-powered drones scream down the boulevard

RD

i couldnt imagine where i work asking for a 25% restocking fee... all of our business would go to advanced, autozone, or napa.  i understand 440 source is on a smaller scale than O'Reilly's, but they are making good enough profit off of their items already so that they should be able to absorb some returned items to ensure good customer service.  25% covers way more than one yahoo putting a part in a box, if not, which guy (according to the price above) makes $25 an hour to package a box?  that is assuming it took him one full hour to package that item in a box and prepare to ship it.  I call BS.
67 Plymouth Barracuda, 69 Plymouth Barracuda, 73 Charger SE, 75 D100, 80 Sno-Commander

Aero426

That 25% is extremely high and indicative of a company that really doesn't want your repeat business.     I understand having a posted policy, which can be selectively enforced in a situation where they need to protect themselves.  On a normal return, that's crazy.   There was some negative talk on Moparts recently about 440 source having to do with some problem parts.  

Ghoste

And that's a more serious thing (no offense to gasoline 24) because there have been some quality questions come up in this site as well.  Sometimes the cheapest isn't the best place to spend your money.

gasoline_24

I appreciate everyone's comments.  I would point out that there were no problems with these parts.  I did steer clear of some of there parts based upon recommendations from several board members as well as my head porter and engine builder.  I could live with a 5% to 15% restocking fee, but 25% is too high.  I will not ship these back to them and let them turn these parts for a significantly higher profit than another part.  If anyone on here wants them they are yours for 25% off.  You won't find a better deal than this.

TylerCharger69

That's true....that percentage is on the high side...Like I was saying.....if you spend 5,000 dollars on an item....you have to pay 25 percent restocking fee???  THAT is ridiculous

dstryr

Every company has overhead and needs to cover a break-even gross profit $$ amount every month they are in business.  Profit margins on small stuff can't be too high or you'll get a reputation for being too expensive.  On the flip side, margins on big-ticket items can't be too low or you'll sell a bunch but not cover overhead.  When 440Source sells their 'stuff', they cover expenses and put some $$ in the bank. 

Who can say they make enough money and should cover restocking anything you want to return?  They are going to keep some of the sale price to cover overhead, maybe even keep part of the profit.  That's fair as long as they held up their end of the deal and shipped good parts.  In many wholesale industries a break-even Gross Profit can be in the 15%-20% range.  What's left? 

I'm not defending 440Source but just pointing out the Wal-Mart mentality shouldn't be applied to all businesses. 

What does irk me about 440Source,and Kim specifically, is that well after the head gasket overhang issue came up he pretty much said the ROL gaskets 'fit without overhang on every head they tested it on' and left me with dead silence as if me catching a nail on it while it sat in front of me was the first time he heard of it.  That was and still is BS.  The upside, the rotating assembly was balanced perfectly and all the journals on the crank were perfect.

Oh, yeah, and the heads don't flow 280 OOTB, but that's been beaten to death already. :brickwall: ;D
dstryr, since 1986.

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Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

dkn1997

I see no point in arguing the merits of the restocking fee.  It's clearly stated.  It's up to anyone buying to take into account the terms that the vendor has listed. 

These internet postings about bad dealings with vendors where the vendor has done nothing wrong are becoming an epidemic.  I'm all for ratting out the skells in this hobby who screw people on purpose every day, but to see this post about a business that's actually run like a business.  We expect people to be up front about things and yet we still find fault when they are.
RECHRGED

RD

just because they are up front doesnt meant we cannot claim their policy is skewed away from what we would consider appropriate customer service.

i work at o'reillys. we are very upfront in regards to our return policy (read the back of our invoices, listen to what we tell the customer when they buy a warranty item, read the signs on the door and the windows).  we make 440source look rudimentary when it comes to establishing our rules regarding returns and warranty items.  But, we will do whatever we need to do to keep that customer coming back, even if it means biting the bullet one time in order to get more money in the future.

its not about being upfront, its about providing the best customer service.  you can have every single autopart stocked to man and still not sell a thing.  its the customer service you provide (ask autozone why we outsell them each year).
67 Plymouth Barracuda, 69 Plymouth Barracuda, 73 Charger SE, 75 D100, 80 Sno-Commander

Chatt69chgr

I think RD has hit the nail on the head.  Any successful business must cultivate the customer at all costs.  Otherwise, they will not remain in business for long.  This is particularly true this day and age.

TylerCharger69

 :iagree:  but unfortunately...in this day and age...it's all about the all mighty dollar

dstryr

Now that's the pot calling the kettle black!  It's OK for a buyer to look out for his almighty dollar but not the seller? :scratchchin: :smilielol: 
dstryr, since 1986.

Bill of Rights
Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

Silver R/T

sorry that you feel like you got ripped off but you have to read their regulations very carefully.
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1968 silver/black/red striped R/T
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RD

Quote from: dstryr on July 29, 2009, 08:23:09 PM
Now that's the pot calling the kettle black!  It's OK for a buyer to look out for his almighty dollar but not the seller? :scratchchin: :smilielol: 

um.. i take it you are not in retail.
67 Plymouth Barracuda, 69 Plymouth Barracuda, 73 Charger SE, 75 D100, 80 Sno-Commander

dstryr

Customers will either absorb the restock charge individually or ALL of the customers will pay a higher price, in aggregate, to cover the overhead of lost sales, restocking, etc. associated with a no-hassle policy.  It also means that more people will take less time to figure out what they really need and just expect to be able to get their money back later.  440Source isn't Wal-Mart(or O'Reilly's?) where they take stuff back new or used. 

I had full P&L responsibility as manager for a $12million annual sales wholesale location for 5 years before family matters drew me to where I am today.  I didn't take phone calls saying that sales were up, add a guy or sales were down so lose 2.  I made those decisions.  My point is that I can assure you that we seldomly hit customers with a restock charge unless OUR vendors slapped one on us but dealing with returns was definitely an overhead issue and in one way or another our selling prices reflected the overhead of returns and the negative sales & GP #s associated with them. 

The policy isn't right or wrong.  It is a choice of practice and matter of business philosophy.  Not buying from one source because of a policy means that you'll ultimately pay a higher price elsewhere to get that easy return service.  Believe me, a good company won't roll over for every customer. 
dstryr, since 1986.

Bill of Rights
Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

AKcharger

I read the fine print...I'm happy with 440 source...well except for those valve spring retainers

RD

i am not promoting nor condoning a premise of "laying down for every customer" as some are blatant crooks.

i believe your experiences with retail (whatever venue you were in) may be a little bit different than the average retail customer.  i speak retail, not wholesale.  wholesale customers are a totally different breed of cattle as they are attempting to procure items to maintain their businesses and money-making ventures.

the average joe who walks into a store or orders something online is not to be considered a subject matter expert or has ordered the same repetitive item over and over like a wholesale customer would have purchased.

due to this, retail customers need to be considered to (1) make mistakes in purchasing and (2) given the opportunity to have a guarantee with the purchase of products either through a warranty/guarantee system or knowing that if they purchased something new and dont need it, they can return it without feeling like they are being charged double (or in this case 25%).

you HAVE to do this in a retail environment as it is a lifeline to maintaining profitability.  this is something wholesalers, though may have to address, dont have to bank on as (in a high probability of cases) the retail customer will inevitably order the wrong stuff the first time a helluvalot more than a wholesale customer who is in most cases in tune with the product they are either selling, servicing, or promoting.

you are forgetting that seller's need to think for the ignorant customers out there too, as there are a lot, but at the same time, not promoting disparity of equality due to ignorant customers.  i.e. a great return policy guarantees return visits by both smart and ignorant customers alike.
67 Plymouth Barracuda, 69 Plymouth Barracuda, 73 Charger SE, 75 D100, 80 Sno-Commander

dstryr

Customers are DUMB??? :o  :lol: My wholesale customers buy and bring stuff back.  After work they go see you.  They really aren't a different breed of cattle.  Returns inflate overhead expenses and there are varying ways to deal with them.  This has pretty much come full circle so I'm done.  :cheers:
dstryr, since 1986.

Bill of Rights
Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

RD

must be nice to live in a glass house i guess.
67 Plymouth Barracuda, 69 Plymouth Barracuda, 73 Charger SE, 75 D100, 80 Sno-Commander

dkn1997

Quote from: RD on July 29, 2009, 07:19:35 PM
just because they are up front doesnt meant we cannot claim their policy is skewed away from what we would consider appropriate customer service.

i work at o'reillys. we are very upfront in regards to our return policy (read the back of our invoices, listen to what we tell the customer when they buy a warranty item, read the signs on the door and the windows).  we make 440source look rudimentary when it comes to establishing our rules regarding returns and warranty items.  But, we will do whatever we need to do to keep that customer coming back, even if it means biting the bullet one time in order to get more money in the future.

its not about being upfront, its about providing the best customer service.  you can have every single autopart stocked to man and still not sell a thing.  its the customer service you provide (ask autozone why we outsell them each year).



I see your point, but the OP came on after he agreed to the restock fee (by purchasing, it's implied that he read the policy) and then complained about it after the fact.  I would throw this out there: how do we know that 440 source doesn't routinely eat the restocking fee when a situation arises?  Just because it's not out there in every post doesn't mean it's not happening....people will be more likely to throw up a negative post rather than a positive one.
RECHRGED

Musicman

Their return policy is clearly stated on their web site...

Quote
   In order for us to continue to be able to offer our customers the lowest prices around on high quality and brand name parts long into the future, we do business by the following policies, which includes both ordering and returns. Please read these policies FULLY before ordering. Your order IS subject to these policies, we do not make exceptions to them under any circumstances. FAILURE ON YOUR PART TO READ THESE TERMS BEFORE ORDERING IS NOT GROUNDS FOR ANY LIABILITY WHATSOEVER ON OUR PART.


Returns on non-defective NEW items: (changed your mind/wrong part/wrong size/style/color etc ordered.)

   We try very hard to get you exactly what you are looking for the first time around and we want you to be happy with whatever you order. So, please do your research, collaborate with your engine builder or machine shop, compare the competition, ask us all your questions,  think long and hard, and please be 100% positive you are selecting the correct parts before you place your order. We have spent considerable resources on listing very detailed pictures and specifications on our website for this purpose. Returns cost all parties involved time and money, and are usually avoidable if the correct homework would have been done beforehand. Building high performance and/or racing engines is not a simple task. Our sales staff will do our best to find you the parts we feel will work best for your application, but engine building is more often an art than a science and part selection is often heavily based on opinion. A part that one engine builder has been using for 30 years with great success may be the same part that another equally experienced engine builder swears will cause the engine to blow up as soon as you turn the key. So, in an effort to keep our rock bottom prices as low as possible for everyone long into the future, lets please try to work together to get the right part(s) you need the first time around.


That being said, we do accept returns for a period of 45 (forty five) days from the invoice date. A restocking fee of up to 25% will be charged. If you need to return something, please call us first to get an RGA number. All returned merchandise must have an RMA (Returned Merchandise Authorization) number assigned by us prior to shipping it back. You must ship the item back to us yourself, we do not issue "call tags." Any shipments we receive without a valid RMA number clearly written on the box will be returned to sender, at senders expense. RMA's expire 30 days after being issued, so if the product(s) are not shipped back to us during this time period, they will no longer be able to be returned. Include a copy of your invoice, an explanation of why you are returning the part, and your contact info including phone number and address.

gasoline_24

Just so you know I ordered by telephone.  If they have this policy they should tell you instead of having to search their site as you did to find their policy.  I don't make a habit of looking through fine print on a reputable seller before buying.  I will change my habits.  I am not in retail but worked there throughout college.  At all places I worked the customer was always right.  Even in my current position if the customer has a complaint I do everything I can so they think they were treated fairly.  This includes writing off some or all of their bill.  I care if they come back and if they go out and tell 10 of their friends how I treated them.  With the internet and these large chains many of these businesses sound as if they could care less about an individual customer.  I think the reason is that one customer cannot effect their business.  They are wrong.  I advised both the lady that answered the phone as well as the gentleman that called me back that I would be posting this on the internet.  Neither appeared to care enough to do anything to adjust the return fee.  Again there is no problem I have had with the parts I ordered.  I did steer clear of all of their bad parts.  Many of these were ones others of you have complained about repeatedly.  Some of you are now telling me I am out of line.  How can you state that 25% is reasonable for cheap parts and also complain when you buy a cheap part and it does not work????

RD

*deleted* in order to let this one go on w/o my input.
67 Plymouth Barracuda, 69 Plymouth Barracuda, 73 Charger SE, 75 D100, 80 Sno-Commander

Musicman

Quote from: gasoline_24 on July 30, 2009, 10:50:00 AM
If they have this policy they should tell you instead of having to search their site as you did to find their policy.  I don't make a habit of looking through fine print on a reputable seller before buying.  I will change my habits. 

I know what your saying, but this is exactly WHY I DO look at every manufactures return policies, or call them on the phone to get it before ordering anything... especially if it's an item that I am not 120% sure about. I've been caught off guard one or two times myself in the past, but lesson learned.

Bobs69

What I'd like to know is, and I haven't read every post here, why do they or any other retailer have to charge anything for restocking?  (Okay maybe a new box or pay to have it sent back to their suppliers?)

My thinking is, they must have employees there that get paid by the hour regardless of what they are doing.  Or do they need to hire someone new for the day to restock items!


jeryst

Quote from: Bobs69 on June 02, 2010, 05:37:33 AM
What I'd like to know is, and I haven't read every post here, why do they or any other retailer have to charge anything for restocking?  (Okay maybe a new box or pay to have it sent back to their suppliers?)

My thinking is, they must have employees there that get paid by the hour regardless of what they are doing.  Or do they need to hire someone new for the day to restock items!



Simple. Returns generate negative cash flow. Warehouses and mail order businesses today run very lean. People are paid to process orders, but there are seldom special people to reprocess orders (returns). Reprocessing orders takes away time from everyone, and makes everyone less efficient. You have to accept the part, have someone inspect it. There are customers who will keep a good part and return a used part in its place.  Sometimes a customer will only make a partial return, will return the wrong part, or will return something to the wrong company, and the company has to pay to ship it back to him. Sometimes a customer will return something that he has greased, bent, and hammered on for 5 hours before coming to the conclusion that it doesnt fit, or he doesnt like the look of it. Sometimes testing/cleaning/refurbishing/repackaging is required. Many times when customers return things, they just throw everything in the box minus paperwork, manuals, fasteners, cables, extra parts, etc. All that has to be determined and replaced if needed. Someone has to make sure the part looks new and presentable to the next customer that orders it. How would you like it if you ordered a part and received it with torn packaging, dirty, torn manuals, missing parts, and covered with grease? Then paperwork has to be made up, approved, and processed at every step. Someone has to follow up to make sure everything has been done correctly in order to combat fraud, and to make sure it shows up correctly. There are costs associated with issuing the credit, whether its crediting your card or issuing a check. Someone may have to transfer money from one account to another. Cashflows may be affected. Penalties may be incurred. Then, there may not be room in inventory, so a new location has to be designated, assigned, documented, and the part must then be transported to the temporary location, only to be transported again to the correct location when an opening occurs. Every one of these functions are usually accompanied by data entry of some type. At the end of the month, someone has to balance all of these transactions to make sure everything comes out correctly. This can be a real bear when someone down the line missed a step or didnt do one correctly. Sure that's the employees fault, and you can argue that because of that it should not be considered, but it was caused by the return in the first place, so it does matter. New employees make mistakes. Employees covering for sick or vacationing employees make mistakes. Computer software makes mistakes. People having a bad day or a family crisis makes mistakes.

Different companies determine how much this type of thing affects them, and set their restocking fees accordingly. Most companies will not charge any type of restocking fee if the part is defective. But if a customer causes all of this extra work because he doesnt know what he is doing, or just changes his mind, why should the company pay for that? Obviously 440 Source has determined that their fee is what it needs to be in order to stay in business. They state their policy on their website. Anyone that places an order by phone should ask about a companys restocking policy before placing the order.

I'm not saying what they charge is right or wrong, just that it is right for them. I worked in manufacturing for a long time, and you wouldnt believe what some customers try to pull off when a return is made, either through ignorance, stupidity, or to get away with something. It's not a simple matter of "Hey Joe, here's another XYZ part. Throw it over there and give John Doe a refund!"

The company has to cover the cost of all that extra work somehow, or else overall prices will go up, and your options will go down.

Retail is a little different because the counter people can visually inspect the part, determine if it is acceptable, put it back on the shelf, and issue the credit. But even so, it takes that time away from serving customers in the store looking to make new purchases, which generate positive cash flow.

Darkman

IMO the restocking fee is in place to ensure you order the part that you need. The customer is not always right! They do have the right to receive the goods/services they paid for and in this case they did. It is not the responsibility of the seller to ensure it is the right part or if the buyer really needs it. If the seller sent the wrong part, then they will absorb those fees and not pass them on. If you order the wrong part or an unwanted part, then your options are simple, send it back and pay the restocking fee (if it exists) or keep it and sell it on yourself.

Hats off to these sellers as they put a bit of responsibility back on the customer.
Make it idiot proof, and somebody will make a better idiot!

If you think Education is difficult, try being stupid!

elacruze

An old employer who had then been in business for 30-odd years once told me (after an angry person didn't have enough money for what he wanted and we wouldn't discount it) "They're not customers until they've spent money". I thought it was harsh at the time, but the last word is "Can we expect to stay in business like this?"

Anybody who's never had to account for profit and loss really has no context for this discussion.
1968 505" EFI 4-speed
1968 D200 Camper Special, 318/2bbl/4spd/4.10
---
Torque converters are for construction equipment.

Darkman

As a manager of a construction company, I will not undertake a job at cost or less just to get work. That does not pay the bills nor does it grow the business. When tendering, some clients say we are too expensive, and award the job to the cheapest bidder. When the job is done, it has had many corners cut because the cheap contractor still has to make a profit and will do a crap job and then the client ends up paying for it anyway! I have seen it too many times! The company I work for has been in business for over 20 years, and has grown from $30 million a year to $150million a year in just 2 years because it refuses to do jobs for nothing!
Make it idiot proof, and somebody will make a better idiot!

If you think Education is difficult, try being stupid!

Bobs69

Hey guys, (the last 4 responses to my query!) thanks for the thoughtfull answers with no attitude towards my lack of knowledge on this subject.  I appreciate it, and understand it better now.

Good answers.

Also, about asking a contractor to do a job for less then he quoted, not a chance I'd do that.  Like you said corners would have to be cut, plus you are asking someone to lower the value the put on themselves, some honest people don't deserve that!