New cafe standards -- will 35 MPG kill the auto industry??

[Sublime69]

I'm not disagreeing with the info you showed us, but that's complete BS congress wants to do it that way

It's the manufacturer's fault if they don't sell?

This is how I figured "fleet" fuel economy in my own terms:

Lets make it simple, Chrysler sells 5 different models:

1) Ram @ 20 mpg
2) Charger @ 25 mpg
3) Challenger @25 mpg
4) Caliber @ 35 mpg
5) Some Hybrid @ 70 mpg

Therefore, the average fleet fuel economy would be:

20(Ram)+25(Charger)+25(Challenger)+35(Caliber)+70(Some Hybrid) divided by the total number of model choices(5 vehicles total)

=> 175 combined mpg / 5 models = 35 mpg FLEET AVERAGE.

What the hell is wrong with congress when they figure fleet average based off sales that haven't been made yet? Counting chickens before they hatch huh? Leave the sales part up to the consumer congress, the way I see it Chrysler did their part in this scenerio.

CAFE has been around for a long time so this is nothing new but they are raising the requirements now which is what the thread is about. They will never just use the average like you mentioned and ignore production run of each model. They are looking at the entire fleet for fuel economy. In your senario they could make one hybrid and 1,000,000 SUV's or 1,000,000 hybrids and one SUV and the average would be the same. The law it is broken up into different categories for cars and trucks but I don't know if it the average is based off an initial estimate provided by the manufacturer prior to the years production run or if it is calculated at the end of each model year production run. If the manufacturer goes over they can pay a penalty or bank it against the nexts years production run. From reading the info it seems some manufacturers just pay the penalty instead of trying to meet the requirements.

From what I read with the law it is up to the manufacturer to sell what they produce. If they make to many vehicles it really is not the fault of the government for including them in the fleet average.

Ok, but why should they produce these cars BEFORE they have a demand for them and then be punished for not selling them?

The scenario of 1 hybrid to 100000000 other cars isn't going to happen. People will buy what they want as this is still a free country. If the people so choose to only buy 1 hybrid out of 250 million people, then obviously we don't need CAFE's regulations and we can manage our own free selves.

I thought you wanted to know how CAFE was figured not the politics behind it. The public demand for types of cars has a lot to do with the price of fuel too. Last year at $4-5 per gallon people were constantly talking about it because it hurt a lot more at the pumps. I figure that if the government really wants to get us out of bigger cars and into econo boxes add on a fuel or carbon tax and "most" will have non choice but fall in line. It probably will happen sooner or later.

I did want to know that, I'm not argueing with you or the facts, just can't believe how much control the govt wants on what we build by desginating how many they build.

What happend to the free market where supply was created by the demand for that product?

[694spdRT]

I'm not disagreeing with the info you showed us, but that's complete BS congress wants to do it that way

It's the manufacturer's fault if they don't sell?

This is how I figured "fleet" fuel economy in my own terms:

Lets make it simple, Chrysler sells 5 different models:

1) Ram @ 20 mpg
2) Charger @ 25 mpg
3) Challenger @25 mpg
4) Caliber @ 35 mpg
5) Some Hybrid @ 70 mpg

Therefore, the average fleet fuel economy would be:

20(Ram)+25(Charger)+25(Challenger)+35(Caliber)+70(Some Hybrid) divided by the total number of model choices(5 vehicles total)

=> 175 combined mpg / 5 models = 35 mpg FLEET AVERAGE.

What the hell is wrong with congress when they figure fleet average based off sales that haven't been made yet? Counting chickens before they hatch huh? Leave the sales part up to the consumer congress, the way I see it Chrysler did their part in this scenerio.

CAFE has been around for a long time so this is nothing new but they are raising the requirements now which is what the thread is about. They will never just use the average like you mentioned and ignore production run of each model. They are looking at the entire fleet for fuel economy. In your senario they could make one hybrid and 1,000,000 SUV's or 1,000,000 hybrids and one SUV and the average would be the same. The law it is broken up into different categories for cars and trucks but I don't know if it the average is based off an initial estimate provided by the manufacturer prior to the years production run or if it is calculated at the end of each model year production run. If the manufacturer goes over they can pay a penalty or bank it against the nexts years production run. From reading the info it seems some manufacturers just pay the penalty instead of trying to meet the requirements.

From what I read with the law it is up to the manufacturer to sell what they produce. If they make to many vehicles it really is not the fault of the government for including them in the fleet average.

Ok, but why should they produce these cars BEFORE they have a demand for them and then be punished for not selling them?

The scenario of 1 hybrid to 100000000 other cars isn't going to happen. People will buy what they want as this is still a free country. If the people so choose to only buy 1 hybrid out of 250 million people, then obviously we don't need CAFE's regulations and we can manage our own free selves.

I thought you wanted to know how CAFE was figured not the politics behind it. The public demand for types of cars has a lot to do with the price of fuel too. Last year at $4-5 per gallon people were constantly talking about it because it hurt a lot more at the pumps. I figure that if the government really wants to get us out of bigger cars and into econo boxes add on a fuel or carbon tax and "most" will have non choice but fall in line. It probably will happen sooner or later.

I diod want to know what, I'm not argueing with you or the facts, just can't believe how much control the govt wants on what we build by desginating how many they build.

What happend to the free market where supply was created by the demand for that product?

The free market as we knew it went up in smoke last year with all the bailouts, stimulus bills, or whatever they are calling it now.

The enviromental "green" movement, whether we agree or not, will trump a lot of stuff in the future. It is supposed to be for the good of all so it is easier to push through. Don't worry though, at the heart of it, some will be making a lot of money with it. Love it or hate it, that is what drives our society.  

[Arthu®]

I'm not disagreeing with the info you showed us, but that's complete BS congress wants to do it that way

It's the manufacturer's fault if they don't sell?

This is how I figured "fleet" fuel economy in my own terms:

Lets make it simple, Chrysler sells 5 different models:

1) Ram @ 20 mpg
2) Charger @ 25 mpg
3) Challenger @25 mpg
4) Caliber @ 35 mpg
5) Some Hybrid @ 70 mpg

Therefore, the average fleet fuel economy would be:

20(Ram)+25(Charger)+25(Challenger)+35(Caliber)+70(Some Hybrid) divided by the total number of model choices(5 vehicles total)

=> 175 combined mpg / 5 models = 35 mpg FLEET AVERAGE.

What the hell is wrong with congress when they figure fleet average based off sales that haven't been made yet? Counting chickens before they hatch huh? Leave the sales part up to the consumer congress, the way I see it Chrysler did their part in this scenerio.

CAFE has been around for a long time so this is nothing new but they are raising the requirements now which is what the thread is about. They will never just use the average like you mentioned and ignore production run of each model. They are looking at the entire fleet for fuel economy. In your senario they could make one hybrid and 1,000,000 SUV's or 1,000,000 hybrids and one SUV and the average would be the same. The law it is broken up into different categories for cars and trucks but I don't know if it the average is based off an initial estimate provided by the manufacturer prior to the years production run or if it is calculated at the end of each model year production run. If the manufacturer goes over they can pay a penalty or bank it against the nexts years production run. From reading the info it seems some manufacturers just pay the penalty instead of trying to meet the requirements.

From what I read with the law it is up to the manufacturer to sell what they produce. If they make to many vehicles it really is not the fault of the government for including them in the fleet average.

Ok, but why should they produce these cars BEFORE they have a demand for them and then be punished for not selling them?

The scenario of 1 hybrid to 100000000 other cars isn't going to happen. People will buy what they want as this is still a free country. If the people so choose to only buy 1 hybrid out of 250 million people, then obviously we don't need CAFE's regulations and we can manage our own free selves.

I thought you wanted to know how CAFE was figured not the politics behind it. The public demand for types of cars has a lot to do with the price of fuel too. Last year at $4-5 per gallon people were constantly talking about it because it hurt a lot more at the pumps. I figure that if the government really wants to get us out of bigger cars and into econo boxes add on a fuel or carbon tax and "most" will have non choice but fall in line. It probably will happen sooner or later.

I did want to know that, I'm not argueing with you or the facts, just can't believe how much control the govt wants on what we build by desginating how many they build.

What happend to the free market where supply was created by the demand for that product?

I know that you hate all those europeans acting liking americans and buying all your great cars, but you could just read my post. There was no such thing as the free auto industry to begin with as the market conditions (such as the fuel price) have been extremely influenced. So if you effect one thing than you will never have a correct balance unless you correct the other side (in this case the car manufacturers) as well. It is basic economics...

Also as much as you like to believe you are free, you really aren't. And you haven't been ever since governments were created. As soon as people ask for a regulatory body you give up some (or a lot depending on the type of government) of that freedom, that's the price  you have to pay.

Arthur

[68charger383]

Here's the second nail in the auto industry coffin.

New study shows that when they allowed the states to raise the speed limit above 55 MPH, they had an additional 12,500 deaths. They originally lowered the speed limits in 1975 to save gas. Could be a good time for them to try that again.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090728/hl_nm/us_speed_limit

[Mike DC]

With the traffic we've got these days, there aren't many cars going over 55mph as it is.