New heads and cam???

[Tarzan]

I still haven't decided which heads and cam to get. Could anyone help me out here, once again??

Its a 440 block with a mild build. I only need to change heads and cam, the rest is very good. The engine was rebuilt 3 years ago.

The 440 has power but not enough:)

[frederick]

You would need to give some more data to answer that question:
-stall rpm
-diff ratio
-intake manifold
-carb
-headers?

What heads and cam have you got at the moment, and what compression?
Do you know how much the pistons are below deck currently?

Frederick

[Ghoste]

Also your primary use of the car.

[Tarzan]

You would need to give some more data to answer that question:
-stall rpm : Not 100% sure
-diff ratio: 3:54
-intake manifold: Now Street dominator (holley) but have bought the Edelbrock ch4b intake.
-carb: Holley 3310s
-headers? YES + 3" flowmaster exhaust.

[skip68]

I take it that you are running stock heads and cam right now ?

[lisiecki1]

you can get a close estimate to your stall speed by putting the car in gear and giving it some throttle while holding the brake and see where your tach stops before the engine just wont rev higher without forcing the car to move.

[Ghoste]

Depending on the stall and the cam choice, I'm tending to think right now that you might be okay with the heads you have. 

[Tarzan]

The heads I have is the original mopar cast iron heads 906( that's what I was told).
The cam is the "purple" cam from mopar. That's all I know about that.
So YES, stock heads and cam.

The car is only used on the street, no racing.

I asked a guy who`s fixed the car before about the stall speed and he said about 2000 rpm.
He also said that the engine is good/strong but that is would increase hp with the change of the cam and heads.
(He also thought that the engine had 10.1 compression.
Is the Edelbrock RPM heads the best? Or 440source? Those are the only brands that I have heard ALOT about around my friends.

Please do come with suggestions if you have some better idea`s

[Tarzan]

Appreciate all the help I can get.

[Tarzan]

Its seems like there is more problems with the 440source heads than the Edelbrock Rpm heads? Yes?
That you need to buy locks,retainers,springs,machine work +++.

Will it be cheaper to buy the Edelbrock rpm 84cc heads or will I have to do the same here also?

Thinking about ordering tomorrow but not before I get some more facts. Do not want to make mistakes or pay more than I have to. The Edelbrock heads cost 2300 dollars (Europe) so I want to be sure. ( stealth heads cost 1500 dollars)


Please help me out.

[mikesbbody]

I'm no expert, but you may be better off buying Mopar performance heads made by edelbrock? cheaper and I think the Edelbrocks due to the angled plugs only accept certain kinds of headers. Also, is your cam the 509? if so they are known for being top end coming to life at higher rpm's.

[Purple440]

How does it drive right now?  What RPM does the power come in?  I think the 906's are closed chamber heads so I'd hang onto those unless you really want aluminum.  I bet a newer cam profile is what you need.  Try Engle or Lunati Voodoo. 

[Tarzan]

The car has power, so I would say that it drives good. I use the Holley street dominator so it takes a little while for it to really go, but I have bought the Edelbrock CH4B intake. Have been told everywhere that the eddy intake is very good in both high and low rpm. Looking forward to put it on.
The 906 cast iron is the heads I use. Should I keep these or buy the eddy rpm or the 440source heads? How much hp will it make? A friend of mine said that I should only get a new cam and that it would be alot more?

I will put the eddy ch4b intake soon, and with a new cam + maybe new heads. How much will it increase?


What should I do?

[frederick]

If you have 906 heads and 10.1:1 compression that means the deck has been milled to give zero deck clearance.
906 head is open chamber, so about 90cc, edelbrock(60929) and 440 source are around closed chamber, 85cc.
Edelbrock also has an open variant, 60189, with 88cc.

In short an edelbrock(60929) or 440source will give you 10.5:1 compression.

You could also buy the porting templates keep the 906head and buy a new cam.
But you will probably need new springs, locks and retainers with a new camshaft.

I've also stood before the dilemma to buy 440source heads or edelbrock.
I went with 440source heads because of the stock appearance.
I've also upgraded to compcams 10degree locks and retainers.
Be aware that these raise the installed height slightly.
On my heads this meant some rockers were touching the retainers.
Haven't heard about anyone else having this problem.
I have therefore bought beehive springs with new retainers and locks.
Afterwards, I have also tried the -0.050 installed height 10deg locks from comp cam, and these would have also solved the issue.

From this it looks like there are a lot of problems with the 440source heads, but I still wouldn't swap them for edelbrock heads, edelbrocks have their own problems by the way. But most people assume they are OK and don;t check anything, whereas with 440source heads they check everything that could possibly be wrong with them.

As for camshafts, I think firefighter will be able to give you better advice, but here's mine.
I am assuming you are going for a hydraulic flat tappet.
Main problem is your stall and diff ratio.
I would go with a Lunati 60303 or 60304 or from Engle either a K56 or K58.
You could contact Lunati or engle and have them recommend a camshaft.
http://www.lunatipower.com/FindMyCam.aspx
http://www.englecams.com/contact/
With these cams adjustable rockers are highly recommended.

Frederick

[Tarzan]

If I buy the Engl k56 or lunati cam (and the things I need with the cam), how much will the hp increase without change of heads?

Is it worth all that money? Im not going to rebuild the engine so this time im not going to use alot of money. Only thinking of heads and cam.

[frederick]

[b5blue]

Since shipping is going to jump up price, why not flow the 906's add hardened seats and new springs/keepers ect. and let Firefighter (Ron) help you pick out a cam? What Octane do you run over there? (a factor to consider at this point) 

[Tarzan]

Frederick, so then I should get either the k58 or the k60 cam with the 440 source 84cc heads then?
Do I need to do more than to change locks/retainers to 10' and the springs?
Maybe beehive springs? And the -0.050 installed height 10deg locks from comp cam?

This is what it seems. It should increase about 60-70 hp according to the last post you made.
Will it be noticible? Is it worth the $2300 I have to pay??? Thats included heads,cam + everything.

These are my last questions. Then I wont ask more

[Tarzan]

I use unleaded fuel or 98 as we have here, but its the same.

How much would the parts cost?  The seat,springs +++. Would be glad to hear what firefighter have to say. He seems like an expert in my ears.

Shipping does cost alot these days and it keeps on going up:(

[b5blue]

PM Ron and see what he thinks, I never know who you have to help with machine work over there (another factor) but 906's are good heads! Check out someone like Mancini Racing's website to get a ball park on parts price. 

[Tarzan]

I just got an email from ENGL. He said that I should this cam:

K-58HYD .514" lift 276' Duration 230' Dur @ .050"


Now its just the rest.

Please feel free to write some more good ideas:)

Thanks!

[frederick]

Was that recommendation for the 906 or edelbrock/source heads?

I don't know if you have seen these articles they are about porting the mopar cylinder heads, among them your 906.
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5115_cylinder_heads/index.html
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5118_cylinder_heads_ii/index.html
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5120_cylinder_heads_iii/index.html

And this test with the different intakes.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_0712_mopar_intake_manifold_comparo/index.html
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_0801_mopar_intake_manifolds/index.html

If you are going with 440source heads I would recommend upgrading to comp cams 10deg locks and retainers.
On my heads when going from source retainers and locks to the comp versions the installed spring height increased from 1.85" to 1.885" which lowered the spring pressure and caused the problems I mentioned with the rockers.
I would therefore suggest -0.050 locks.
Part Numbers are:
630-16 COMP Cams Super Valve Locks -0.050 10degrees $26.25
741-16 COMP Cams Steel Valve Spring Retainers 10degrees $49.25

Frederick

[firefighter3931]

With a 2000 stall/3.54's you don't want to overcam the engine or it will feel real sluggish out of the hole. With that stall and gears i would go with the Engle K56 and no bigger, period ! 

My guess is that currently your engine is overcammed based on your performance description....probably the 284/484 purpleshaft is what you have in there now. That cam really needs more stall and gear than you currently have.

As for the heads ; it's difficult to say what performance gain you would realize without knowing the flow numbers on your 906's. Assuming that they are stock/unported the gains with a stealth/edelbrock head would be quite noticable. If you want to keep your current headers the stealth or MP452 aluminum heads are your best choice. Using and Edelbrock RPM/Indy EZ head will mean a header swap and more money due to the angled plugs.

If it were mine ; i would do the cam swap with matching valvesprings and install the CH4B and try it out before dropping all the extra coin on a set of aftermarket heads. You can allways upgrade later if you're not happy but i think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the cam/manifold swap. Matching up the components is critical. 



Ron

[Tarzan]

Thank you so much Ron. This really helped me out. I will follow your advice and then see how it goes. 

Good to have someone who know`s as much as you here.

[firefighter3931]

You're welcome. 



Ron

[dstryr]

This forum has been great for me, too.  I read all the stroker posts I could from here and other sites and built a parts list over the course of a couple years and Ron answered lots of questions as I was having my motor built, which increased my understanding and reassured me when I had doubts on the direction things were going.  Thank you!:cheers:  For a first timer having an engine built there were lots of things for me to learn.   I am very confident that when I get my motor in I'll be on cloud nine with its performance.  The price of new tires might have a way of offsetting that feeling, though!

[Tarzan]

Ron,
I have one last question. What kind of converter (stall speed) should I get?
The one I currently have is at 2000 rpm. Will that fit as well on the K56?
Does the stall speed I have work with the mopar purple cam that I have or is it too low?
I got an email from a guy who said that I should get a converter with 2600 stall and change the gears from 3.54:1 which it now is to 2.73:1 instead of getting new cam +++.

Also said that the car would go better even though it does not seem like it. + that I should think about maybe get a new carb instead of the holley 3310s that I have. I had Edelbrock before and it did not work at all. When I put the holley cab in the car it really changed and got alot more quicker and it kind of woke up. I am going to put the edelbrock ch4b intake in soon and that should also make a little difference.

Is this better? I did not really understand that this would help but you know these things.


Thanks again

[firefighter3931]

Kim, the K56 will work fine with your 2000 stall and 3.54 gears. Don't change the gears or stall....just swap in the cam. A looser (3500) converter with taller (2.73) gears will just cause problems and not be very fun to drive.

Not knowing what purple cam you have in the engine it's hard to say whether or not you have enough converter to make it work well. My guess is that you've got the 284/484 cam and it feels sluggish out of the hole until 2500 or so rpm ? That being the case, you don't have enough stall speed to make it work well....generally speaking that cam likes 2800 stall and 3.91 gears to really function well. 

The 3310 is OK for now....just try it with the CH4B and K56 cam. I like double pumpers and it will run stronger with a DP carb but for now just install the cam and intake manifold and see how you like it.  Another important tuning item that often gets overlooked is the ignition.....there's usually lots of power to be found by simply dialing in the timing curve.



Ron

[SeattleCharger]

      hello, I think you might be going to big in the cam for the stall you have.  a k60 is too big I think?, probably pushing it with k58 already.  you aren't going to have any low end, that is not going to make stop light to stop light driving any fun,   even though the CH4B will help some, the cam isn't going to like much street use,  k60 will be for hp in higher rpm range.    For launching off the line, torque is required more than hp to get all that weight moving,  over camming it will lose fun off the line,  how often do you drive around and hit 5000 or 6000 rpms anyways with a big block 440?    you aren't drag racing really.  the low end will be where most of your fun is, and k56 or k58(big cam already) will still be strong in high rpm's when you want them, but don't ruin the low end, and stop light starts, just to get as big a cam as you can fit in there, you know?  

[Tarzan]

Hey Ron.

I am sorry to bother you again but I need to know a couple of things before I order the cam.

Was about to order the k56 cam the other day but they told me at the store to think again about it.

They meant that the cam was not that big for my engine.

Also said that I could get the Lunati 60302 Voodoo Hyd Cam - Chrysler 361-440 Three Bolt 262/268 instead but is the lift too high since im running street and NOT strip.

What should I do? I want the max hp and torq that I can get but since I want/need the car to be streetable and at the same time have serious HP.

+ which Valve Locks and Valve Spring Retainers will fit?

I will wait with the heads till next year but thinking about buying soon since the currency is nice these days.

Should I get the 440 source stealth heads or the Edelbrock rpm heads? I know I have asked this question many times before but it the difference that big? If not I will go for the stealth heads. The stealth heads cost 1562 dollars and the Edelbrock rpm cost 2343 dollars here. No point to use over 781 dollars more if its the same.


Sorry again but this is the last time before I make up my mind.

[SeattleCharger]

K-58          (I know, my name isn't Ron)     

[Tarzan]

Another question that I forgot.

How do I know that the cam that I already have wont be the same as the Engle K56 or the Lunati 60302? (Since I dont know which cam I have)

Maybe im just stupid but how do I know? How do I know that the cam is too big?