Torsion Bar question

[bearbqd]

Ok, I couldn't get this question answered piggy backing on someone elses thread so can someone please give me some input on this. When I bought my Charger, I was given an extra set of torsion bars with the car. They are 1.22 diameter. I would like to bring my front end up a little. Are these too thick for general street applications or will they really tighten up the handling? I just don't want to install them and have them be completely different from my expectations. Thanks for any help.

[maxwellwedge]

Wow - Those are huge. I would crank up the ones you have instead.

[Back N Black]

Thats too big IMHO, I think the Hemi cars only had .96" torsion bars.

[FLG]

Heres a thread i had posted about bar size

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,46301.0.html

Some people will say a 1.22 bar isnt to bad, others might. I say since you have both you might as well give em a shot and see if you like it or not.

[BROCK]

If you find that you don't like the large as barge torsion bars:  PM me for immediate recoup of your cost!

[Troy]

Those are really big. One of my cars has them as well and the advice I was given was to try them out (big block, larger sway bar, modern tires and brakes) and see if they're too stiff before swapping them out. The car isn't finished so I can't say what they're like in real life. With a restored-to-stock car I think they'd be a bad idea but with some upgraded components I don't know if they'd be as bad as people expect.

Troy

[bearbqd]

Hmm, interesting replies, especially on the added thread. The box they are in is marked with a sharpie that says 1/4 mile and oval so I guess they are really meant for racing. I'm not sure I would mind a stiff ride if it cornered well, but it might make it unbalanced. I do plan on adding other suspension upgrades as I can afford them. Has anyone tried the new Hotchkis upper control arms yet? They seem pretty pricey but probably worth it for the camber caster correction they allow.

[mauve66]

shouldn't be 1/4 mile i wouldn't think, the stiffer the bar the more the front end would be stiff, and the lighter the bar the more the fornt end would lift but i could be wrong again

[maxwellwedge]

If you are going to give them a try make sure your crossmember (torsion bar anchor area) is not half rotted. It will come under more stress.

[maxwellwedge]

shouldn't be 1/4 mile i wouldn't think, the stiffer the bar the more the front end would be stiff, and the lighter the bar the more the fornt end would lift but i could be wrong again

Don't be so hard on yourself - You haven't been wrong for a while. 

[bearbqd]

If you are going to give them a try make sure your crossmember (torsion bar anchor area) is not half rotted. It will come under more stress.

No problems there I don't think. Pretty solid underneath.

[maxwellwedge]

That's a good thing! 

[HPP]

Handling and feel tend to be VERY subjective. I have seen posts complaining that the stock hemi .92 bars are too stiff. Personally, I think a 1.12 is about right and a 1.22 is very firm, but not harsh. There is so much that contributes to this feel from the suspension bushings, tire sidewall height, and wheel weights to other less apparent things like seat spring integrity, physical fitness of the driver and road condition. SO, to you I'd ask, what are your expectations of the car?

Suffice it to say that a 1.22 t-bar is stout. It is the biggest bar you can stick in a stock socket. For the sake of comparison, this produces around 400# of wheel rate. This is the equvilent of using a 900-1000# spring in a chevy, so this is getting in to entry level competition rates. Combine that big a t-bar with a big sway bar and you can easily create 700-800 pounds of force per wheel. Without equivilent upgrades to the rear to return the balance, you will have a car that understeers in corners like a pig rooting for truffles.

Don't forget with that much wheel rate, you will now need to step up to a stronger shock to handle the additional force. Plan on QA1 adjustable at a minimum, or Koni or Bilsteins. Off the shelf Monroes can't handle them, your ride will suffer, and you'll be miserable.

Another thing to consider when going with a bar that big is the force require to turn that much t-bar will now turn your entire car into an active part of the suspension. Without subframe connectors, torque boxes or other bracing, the uni-body structure will flex.

If all you want is to have the front end a little higher, you can turn up the adjusters on your current bars up some. If you want a little more wheel rate for a littel more spirited driving, a .96 for a small block or 1.0 for a big block will produce a nice compromise of feel and handling while making the car more solid and consistent ar the drags. BTW, mopar has discontinued the 1.22 bars, so odds are you could sell them pretty easily and roll the money in to a rate better suited for your application.

TC

[Troy]

Ok, I just read this again after checking my parts. My sway bar is 1.25" but my torsion bars are 1.06" so yours are HUGE in comparison. HPP's post has some really good info. Thanks!

Troy

[bearbqd]

Yeah, thanks HPP. That was very informative. After reading that and the others, I think I'll just tweak the ones I have in the car for now. Sounds like the 1.22's are a bit big. You know what else sucks about these bars?...When I bought the car, I paid for it on the spot and got the title. The previous owners buddy was to drop it off on his car carrier a week later. While I was still with the car, we were going through his garage and piling all the parts that went with the car into it. The torsion bars were put in the trunk. About a week after I received the car, I noticed two outward little dents in the rr quarter. I didn't remember seeing these when I first looked the car over. It took about a week or two for it to dawn on me that they were the perfect shape for the torsion bars to have hit the quarter pretty hard from inside the trunk. Not sure what manuever produced that result, but kinda sucks as they are new quarters. Oh well.

[Nacho-RT74]

you don't need a T bar really because stiffer ride like to support heavy weight... Of course more weight, makes tight the T Bar more and that gives you stiffer handling too.

Depends also the wished ride height... lot of variables

[bearbqd]

Well, I definitely have some kind of issue going on. I went to adjust my torsion bars and the passenger side one was already almost maxxed out. The driver's side still had about a half inch adjustment. The two sides were even as far as the measurement to ground. I don't know if I just have worn out t bars or what. I would be interested in trading or selling my big t bars for some .92's if someone has some to trade. Not sure what a fair selling price would be for them. They are still in the box so I assume they have never been used. They don't appear so.

[bearbqd]

Well, now I'm not sure. I just found this: http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/your_garage/cars/1052.shtml
This is Jay Leno's bad @ss Super Bee with the same size t bars. The rest of the suspension is tricked too though. Hmmm

[Foreman72]

Well, now I'm not sure. I just found this: http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/your_garage/cars/1052.shtml
This is Jay Leno's bad @ss Super Bee with the same size t bars. The rest of the suspension is tricked too though. Hmmm

thats just it...you couldn't just throw them on a stock set up...but you kno that...you have to beef up the components around it...like angus beef...i'd stick with whatcha got...

[HPP]

Like I said earlier, they can work, but there are a lot of variables in how they will feel from one car to the next. Lots of weight on the nose, lots of tire sidewall, and no uni-body reinforcement and they will feel fine, right up until your subframe welds pop out.

There is still the subjective feel of it all too. Leno has enough cars that if he has a rough riding Super Bee that only gets driven for 50 miles a year, it may not be a big deal.  If you put any significant amount of miles on your car, the stiffer ride may be very uncomfortable. Only you could be the judge of that and unless you go the whole nice yeards to set the car up for them (shocks, subframes, etc), you probably will be disappointed

You could always slide them in, get an alignment, and decide. Then you'll only be out the alignment if you don't like them and want to shop for a different size.

[b5blue]

All very true! Plus I have found a crappy lower control arm bushing reduces the lift of a torsion also.

[bearbqd]

 

You could always slide them in, get an alignment, and decide. Then you'll only be out the alignment if you don't like them and want to shop for a different size.

I AM the alignment tech at our shop, so that wouldn't be an issue. Still haven't decided what to do yet. I'll probably sell them and get the .92 ones.

[craig]

original thought was that you wanted to raise the front a little.....keep the stock bars and crank them up a little.....those monster bars will deteriorate your ride noticeably ( unless you have added some extra weight up front somehow)...and old racing trick from the 60's was to run a v-8 car and slap in the thinner 6 cylinder bars....with 90/10 shocks .....  wimpy ride, but LOTTA LIFT on takeoff....BTW, what are you using for wheels and tires? this could help improve front end height a little...

[bearbqd]

Well, like I said, I think my front bars are worn out. The passenger side one is already maxxed out.

[375instroke]

shouldn't be 1/4 mile i wouldn't think, the stiffer the bar the more the front end would be stiff, and the lighter the bar the more the fornt end would lift but i could be wrong again

All depends on your level.  If you can pull the tires off the ground, the stiffer bars would help when the front hits the ground.

[375instroke]

Does everyone assume that stiffer bars always equate to better cornering ability, and anything softer that max stiffness will always be a compromise between cornering and comfort?  A guy at work races a Viper, and some car that looks like a Formula 1 car, and he says people building street cars always go too stiff on their spring rates.  Also, even when the suspension is dialed in to max cornering ability, a rougher track requires a softer suspension, or else, small bumps and irregularities on the track will cause a tire to loose contact with the road, and throw you into the tire barricade.

[b5blue]

I run HD Mopar 440 bars and like the way it tracks/rides just fine. There are 1000 opinions on this stuff, I just go with the best factory grades I can.

[HPP]

Does everyone assume that stiffer bars always equate to better cornering ability, and anything softer that max stiffness will always be a compromise between cornering and comfort?  A guy at work races a Viper, and some car that looks like a Formula 1 car, and he says people building street cars always go too stiff on their spring rates.  Also, even when the suspension is dialed in to max cornering ability, a rougher track requires a softer suspension, or else, small bumps and irregularities on the track will cause a tire to loose contact with the road, and throw you into the tire barricade.

Well, to gain cornering ability you have to increase roll resistance. Roll resistance is improved through either higher t-bar rates or higher s-bar rates or a combination of the two.

There is a saying in racing that you only use as much spring (t-bar in this case) as necessary to do the job intended. The issue with classic mopars are there are only a few t-bar choices. In other words, the biggest torsion bar you can fit in a Charger is only equivilent to a 800# spring in a chevy or around a 650# spring in a coil over set up. Neither of which, depending on the track they are intended, for are very heavy in competition terms.  In an autocross or high banked oval, this means the best a mopar can get is only going to be around an entry level rate compared to many other applications. Conversely, on moderate banking, road courses, or street use, it may be possible to over spring a classic mopar. So intended use is a big factor here. But since handling is a more recent deal for a lot of mopars owners than it was a decade or two ago, we also tend to see some over the top thoughts on springing mopars much like we saw over the top engine combos a decade ago.

Additionally, depending on the competition application it is used in, better control may also come from using larger sway bars and lighter spring rates. However, again we are back to the limited selection available for stock appearing sway bars applications. However, if your willing to fabricate the set up and have something that looks non-original, then your selection improves greatly. Since the vast majority of mopars seem to be built as restorations or drag cars, this type of fab is rarely seen on our cars.

Also worth noting is that in going with big bar/small spring set up you are going to need to change shock valving quite a bit from what is also offered off the shelf. Since most street guys do not understand or see the value in spending a $1000 on a set of shocks for a street car, some of the benfit of this combination can be lost on all but the most serious racer who is willing to experiment to find the best combination of compression and extension for the new behavior of the soft spring/big bar combo.

[elacruze]

Well, like I said, I think my front bars are worn out. The passenger side one is already maxxed out.

Maybe you have a mismatched set, or two lefts. I'd check that they're both installed with the correct rotation.