Nitrogen enriched gas

[Silver R/T]

Anyone try this nitrogen enriched gas? Is it just another gimmick, I know it's more expensive than regular gas but is it really worth it?

[Tilar]

I've never tried it, but it actually falls in line with some of the changes coming this next year in EPA regulations for emissions in diesel truck engines. I don't know if gas engines have anything this strict or not.

Starting this coming year, any on-road diesel powered engines produced will have some new and really strict emissions requirements. This is why Cat is no longer offering on-road engines in America. I don't know for sure but I suspect this is why cat laid a lot of people off here in the states. They are still selling them overseas.  Cummins and I think mercedes and Detroit are actually meeting the new emissions requirements by using Urea, which is mostly nitrogen and used in farming for fertilizer.

This will be done by adding a seperate tank for a diluted version of the agricultural Urea which is actually going to be called...Ready for this? Exhaust Fluid. They are actually injecting a lidluted fertilizer into the exhaust system and once it mixes with the exhaust, it changes the fumes enough that it will pass emissions testing. As far as the test is concerned, the exhaust is as clean as the air coming in through the air cleaner.

In a nut shell, the engine is still putting out the carbon dioxide, but the urea hides it. And since Urea is nitrogen, I assume that is their marketing plan for "Nitrogen enriched gas" is based on tests saying it is cleaner.

In my opinion burning fertilizer in your car and putting it into the air can't be good. At least it needs to have some more testing to check for any long term effects.

I went to a seminar on this for the new diesel engines and the cost of this diluted urea is somewhere around $27 a gallon. In a truck/bus application you can figure a cost of roughly $7 and change per 100 gallons of diesel fuel. There you have it, More than you ever really wanted to know about nitrogen and fuel.  

[Ghoste]

Sounds like yet another effort by the greens where they all do a happy hippie flower power dance and high five each other over their victory against the evil oil barons but in the end they acutally put more crap into the environment.

[b5blue]

Um er "urea" is wee wee....as in urine. (OK now the jokes!)

[Tilar]

Haha, Well it's a little bit more than that but basically you are right. Somehow I don't think pissing in your gas tank will accomplish the same thing. 

[Ghoste]

How do you know until you try it? 

[Tilar]

Hmm, You go ahead and let me know how it works out. 

[resq302]

Maybe I should have paid a little more attention in Chemistry class but isn't Nitrogen an inert gas?  Meaning it doesn't burn?  If so, wouldn't have have absolutely no effect in the engine at all?  Kinda seems like a marketing gimmic to me.  Anyway, we shall see as I just filled up this morning with Shell with the good ol Nitrogen enriched formula.

[b5blue]

Now go run the piss out of it and report back to us.

[no318]

78% of what we (and the engine) breath is Nitrogen.  I am not a chemist, but I fail to see how 1) the nitrogen will be mixed with the fuel as a liquid at ambient air temp. and 2) what good it will do anyway.  There are standards for oxygen and nitrogen (NOx) already, too.  Not just CO2 standards. 

[Ghoste]

According to this link, it is merely acting as a detergent.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/alternative-fuels/nitrogen-enriched-gasoline.htm

[resq302]

Just checked out the site.   Doesn't really say too much about it other than it is added and that it acts like a detergent.  Would be nice if they actually had some tests or  results.

[Sublime69]

Methane enriched would be nice....

[Chad L. Magee]

78% of what we (and the engine) breath is Nitrogen.  I am not a chemist, but I fail to see how 1) the nitrogen will be mixed with the fuel as a liquid at ambient air temp. and 2) what good it will do anyway.  There are standards for oxygen and nitrogen (NOx) already, too.  Not just CO2 standards. 

Calling for a chemist, eh.....

In my best Lurch voice:  Yoouu Raanngg?

The nitrogen in the fuel is not in the elemental gaseous form (N2) but attached to hydrocarbon chemicals (in a liquid form, although it could also be a solid).  More than likely, the nitrogen groups would be amines, but others could be used too depending upon the specific function.  Since the nitrogen groups are attached to hydrocarbon chains (ie. what makes up gasoline fuels), the compounds are dissolvable in conventional fuel mixtures.  Basically, the addition of these nitrogen containing compounds effect the combustion process of the fuel in a way that forms less pollutant side products once the fuel is burnt.  Yes, the EPA does have regulations on NOx emission, but it may be the case where they are allowing for some NOx production to be allowed if it prevents the formation of another pollutant (such as CO or CO2) in the combustion process.

If you have more questions on this, let me know......

[Chad L. Magee]

Maybe I should have paid a little more attention in Chemistry class but isn't Nitrogen an inert gas?  Meaning it doesn't burn?  If so, wouldn't have have absolutely no effect in the engine at all?  Kinda seems like a marketing gimmic to me.  Anyway, we shall see as I just filled up this morning with Shell with the good ol Nitrogen enriched formula.

As a chemist, I think that Shell is slightly misrepresenting the main point of their product, as it should be "nitrogen content enriched" or "percent nitrogen enriched" rather than just "nitrogen enriched".  It is not in the elemental gaseous form that everyone alive is currently breathing in.  If you tried to put nitrogen gas into the gasoline mixture, it would eventually equalize out back to standard form with no net result.  Rather the form that they mention is a petrochemical that happens to contain a percentage of nitrogen groups within the  molecular structure.  As for whether or not it works, I have not tested it out myself, so I can give no real input on that part.....

[Ghoste]

Is it performing the cleaning process they claim?

[ChgrSteve67]

Does it go bad?

What is "the Best if used before" time frame? Or does it just gunk up your engine instead of cleaning it?

[Chad L. Magee]

Is it performing the cleaning process they claim?

My take on it is that it is acting as a detergent by not forming the accumulative "gunk" during the combustion process.  Depending upon what particular chemical combination is used, the combustion process of the fuel plus additive can be more or less controlled, leading to fewer side products formed than without the additive.  Whether or not the additive removes additional "gunk"  or "sludge" is something that would have to be tested......

[Chad L. Magee]

Does it go bad?

What is "the Best if used before" time frame? Or does it just gunk up your engine instead of cleaning it?

Potentially the additive could go bad if it undergoes decomposition in your gas tank.  Decomposition can be caused by many factors, one of which can be time itself.  As time goes on, some molecules will have a tendency to undergo changes that greatly affect their chemistry.  If you left the additive in the tank for years, it probably would not do the job very well due to decomposition of the gasoline-additive mixture.  As for a usable lifetime frame, I don't know as that would be something that would need to be tested.  I suspect that it would be longer than the life of the gasoline blend if stored separately.......

[Chad L. Magee]

Um er "urea" is wee wee....as in urine. (OK now the jokes!)

  Someone who got the chemistry right! 

[b5blue]

Thanks!  <that is beer right....

[451-74Charger]

I remember back when Shell first came out with Formula Shell, It ate the turbos in Volvos, and they dropped it....
Sounds like they are at it again..

On a different note I used Silkolene Octane Boost in my "Ford Powered" Chevette, and a friend who was a chemist for BP, sent me a letter after taking a sample of it.
It read " the primary ingredient is nothing more than Toluene" so dont run it in a road car. Well, the letter arrived the day after the engine grenaded itself. If it had been a Mopar, it probably would still be ok

[Chad L. Magee]

Thanks!  <that is beer right....

That can be any legal beverage you want it to be (except urine of course).  Very few people pick up that urea is a natural byproduct of our systems, unless they have paid attention in science classes.....

[Tilar]

Yes, the EPA does have regulations on NOx emission, but it may be the case where they are allowing for some NOx production to be allowed if it prevents the formation of another pollutant (such as CO or CO2) in the combustion process.

If you have more questions on this, let me know......

In the situation with the new diesel engines, The urea is injected into the exhaust system. It changes nothing other than to fool the test equipment into thinking the CO2 level is lower.

[Ghoste]

I can't imagine the feds allowing that loophole to last for very long.  At least not once the economy gets rolling again.

[Tilar]

I dont think they care. The epa says the readings have to be at a specific level or lower and these engines meet that requirement by injecting this into the exhaust system. The epa says nothing about what you have to do to meet their numbers. Just meet them.

[Ghoste]

But the green vote cares and once they lean on Obama I can't see it taking too long to change. 

[Tilar]

I don't think they were expecting CAT to drop the American truck engines out of their production due to the new restrictions. Hello layoffs. They may "change" it but I wouldn't count on it because it's just like everything else, It's all about the money. This bogus global warming and green crap is nothing more than lining somebodys pockets and this is helping to do just that. When you can sell diluted urea for $27 a gallon to diesel owners and they have to buy it in order to keep their vehicle from going into cripple mode, someone (probably al bore among others) is getting very wealthy.

[b5blue]

Geeze watered down piss for sale! What a bunch of guano that is.... their not going green....their going yellow!

[Chad L. Magee]

I don't think they were expecting CAT to drop the American truck engines out of their production due to the new restrictions. Hello layoffs. They may "change" it but I wouldn't count on it because it's just like everything else, It's all about the money. This bogus global warming and green crap is nothing more than lining somebodys pockets and this is helping to do just that. When you can sell diluted urea for $27 a gallon to diesel owners and they have to buy it in order to keep their vehicle from going into cripple mode, someone (probably al bore among others) is getting very wealthy.

I can see someone selling a "make your own urea supply" kit for diesel applications.  They could even use the tag line: "Harvest your own!" for the t.v. commercials and radio ads.   Eventually, that loophole will likely get closed by the EPA or others in power.  When it does happen, I look for the economy to take another big hit.....

[b5blue]

Sell that beer when your DONE with it! 

[Tilar]

I don't think they were expecting CAT to drop the American truck engines out of their production due to the new restrictions. Hello layoffs. They may "change" it but I wouldn't count on it because it's just like everything else, It's all about the money. This bogus global warming and green crap is nothing more than lining somebodys pockets and this is helping to do just that. When you can sell diluted urea for $27 a gallon to diesel owners and they have to buy it in order to keep their vehicle from going into cripple mode, someone (probably al bore among others) is getting very wealthy.

I can see someone selling a "make your own urea supply" kit for diesel applications.  They could even use the tag line: "Harvest your own!" for the t.v. commercials and radio ads.   Eventually, that loophole will likely get closed by the EPA or others in power.  When it does happen, I look for the economy to take another big hit.....

That I can believe. I think the government has gone to the point that they think the general public would believe anything if they pushed it hard enough. Think about it for a minute.... It's too easy of a project to spoof. Hell we as a group alone could probably rake in millions between actual inception and production.

[b5blue]

An endless supply!

[Chatt69chgr]

It's my understanding that all gasoline comes from the refinerys in the same pipeline.  Each gasoline company gets the same product and then adds various ingredients to it to differentiate themselves from the other brands.  I would bet that even the "slop tank" gasoline retailers buy additives from independents to put in the gas that they sell.  The retail markets for just about every product are poor right now due to the economy.  So if you want to boost sales, you need to make your product stand out from everyone else's product.  I don't doubt that the Shell additive they are calling "nitrogen enriched" has some beneficial effect.  They seem to be saying it cuts down on carbon buildup on the valves, etc.  But I really think that what is behind their big marketing program is simply the fact that they want to sell more gasoline and they figure the current cute commercials is the way to do it.  They are not the only ones.  Look at Progressive Insurance.  How many commercials a day do we see with the girl in the white uniform hawking their product. 
I will say one thing about Shell gasoline.  There are a couple of stations in Chattanooga that sell the Shell product with NO ALCOHOL.  It costs maybe 10 cents more per gallon.  I've been filling up there lately.  And yes, the pumps say "nitrogen enriched". 
The cheapest gas in our town is the Murphy stations in front of the Wal-Mart.  This gas apparently does contain at least 10% Ethanol. 

[PocketThunder]

Look at Progressive Insurance.  How many commercials a day do we see with the girl in the white uniform hawking their product. 

and she's not even that good looking... 

[Chad L. Magee]

I will say one thing about Shell gasoline.  There are a couple of stations in Chattanooga that sell the Shell product with NO ALCOHOL.  It costs maybe 10 cents more per gallon.  I've been filling up there lately.  And yes, the pumps say "nitrogen enriched". 
The cheapest gas in our town is the Murphy stations in front of the Wal-Mart.  This gas apparently does contain at least 10% Ethanol. 

The "nitrogen enriched" additives are different than adding alcohol to the gasoline.  The ethanol additives are there to help boost octane numbers to lower rated gasoline mixtures, renewable energy, etc., etc., as well as for the "environmental good" of everyone (some could say $$$ for certain groups).  Shell is adding the nitrogen containing compounds to their gasoline to induce a more controlled internal combustion of the fuel, leading to less carbon buildup in the engine.  What they are not saying is how much that they are adding, what exactly it is and how much it normally costs.  So, if the additive is cheaper than the fuel blend alone, it would mean that they are diluting the fuel for a net gain on their side.......

[b5blue]

It's great to have a chemist on our forum!  Thanks!