Anyone familar with Mass and Vermont Daytonas?...

[ramairthree]

  The first car I remember riding in was my parent's Daytona.  My mom wanted an automatic to replace the 4 speed she was driving, and the Daytona fit the bill.  (she drove Dad's cars, but he usually drove an old Chevy step side for work, so they were pretty much hers most of the time)  We lived in Vermont and the car came from Mass.

  Before that, my dad bought a 70 Chevelle SS454 4-speed and my mom hated the standard.  It was 6 months late due to some GM strike or something, and there was a problem with the transmission locking into a gear sometimes.  I remember vaguely seeing the car, but not riding in it.  He was mad about it being late, mom not liking it, and the transmission problem in a new car.    I would not be surprised if the old man had ordered an LS6.  He had a 65 GTO in high school, bought a 68 442 when he graduated in 68, then got the 70 Chevelle a couple of years later, traded it for the Daytona, and also, believe it or not, had a 69 Z28 from about 71 to 73 also.

  A 69 Daytona in a showroom at Hartwin's dealership in Greenfield, Mass caught my Dad's eye.  My family knew the lady that used to be their book keeper.  Sometimes she would pick up and brings parts for us like brake pads and stuff. (My dad ran a small garage in southern Vermont)  The dealer really liked the Chevelle, and traded straight for the Daytona.

  That was the beauty of the time I guess.  Guys with part time jobs in high school could own a muscle car a few years old, buy a new one after graduating and getting a full time job, etc.  Try running out and buying one of the new SRTs or SSs right out of high school now!

  The Daytona was an automatic with the 440, and the automatic sat well with mom.  It's not just a myth that some of those cars sat a long time at the dealers.  The price and wild looks were not an easy sell. Dad died in an accident when I was 12, but I have talked to some other guys back home that also saw the car and test drove it.  If not the price, then the looks were too wild for them.  (Like 69 Judges being a little too wild with the wacky graphics and the high spoiler- and many went for a straight RA GTO instead for the same performance with "regular" GTO looks) 

  Yep, so that's how it ended up being the first car I remember riding in.  I was maybe 3 or so.  For sure Mom drove me and other kids to preschool starting when I was 4, drove it to work, to my grand parents, etc. It was just a regular everyday car.  I remember playing in it and pretending to drive.  I kind of remember it having three setting for the wipers, but you could get it to stop in between settings, so it would wipe at 5 different speeds, and no one believing me when I said I had 5 settings for the wipers. 

  Unfortunately I do not have the VIN, and she cannot find it anywhere.  It was sold to a guy in Bennington, VT - who also had a white one - in 76 or 77.  I heard it ended up in New Hampshire, but have no idea for sure.

  Here it is where we lived in Jacksonville, VT.  Not a great picture, but the best I have.  Dad's dirt circle track racer is also in the picture.  He sold it for a down payment on a log truck.  He got sick of working indoors and went to logging full time.  That was the end of cool cars for the family.



  I will not be able to afford it if it is still out there.  (or any other true Daytona)
I might look into a clone someday, just for the nostalgia and driveability.  (A driver that was streetable enough it could also hit the drag strip without having to be trailered and run in the 12s would be about just right for me)

  But I would love to know where it ended up.  Any info on it would be greatly appreciated.  thank you for your time and the great forum.

[Aero426]

    A 69 Daytona in a showroom at Hartwin's dealership in Greenfield, Mass caught my Dad's eye.  My family knew the lady that used to be their book keeper.  Sometimes she would pick up and brings parts for us like brake pads and stuff. (My dad ran a small garage in southern Vermont)  The dealer really liked the Chevelle, and traded straight for the Daytona.

How about Holland Dodge in Greenville Mass?     That is close enough to be a match.   The car is XX29L9B386563.    It's a late car shipped on 9/4.      The VIN has surfaced back in the late 70's, but has not been reported since.   

[ramairthree]

Thank you Aero426.
I have double checked on that 426Superbird who made a great effort to check.

My mother swears the dealership was in Greenfield, and that it was Hartwin.
The lady that worked there lived in our town, and Greenville would have been way too far to drive to work each day.
Also, back in December I talked to a guy from our area that test drove it.  He also said Greenfield and took it right on to I-91 just a mile or two from the dealership.

I wonder if the cars went from dealership to dealership.
It could still be the same car.

How many Daytonas are "lost" at this point?
Or, is it a better question to ask how many are accounted for?
It is really too bad to think some went the way of parts cars or scrap.

[nascarxx29]

There is a total of 426 and 440 for those states you mentioned 5 Mass 1 VT it looks like

69 Daytona list per state totals going from the current standing list number to date #501 cars from pages supplied in my club newsletter that shows the new car shipments for 69 daytonas and locations shipped to Including serial numbers and dealer number and dealer location. Also shows what statms did and did not recieve a 69 daytona .Starting with the 440s AL-11 AZ-5 AR-2 CANADA 45 CA-38 CO-12 CON-2 DE-1 FL-16 GA-16 HAWAII-2 ID-1 IL-22 IN-21 IA-3 KAN-7 KEN-5 LOU-7 ME-1 MD-2 MASS-5 MI-26 MINN-3 MISS-1 MO-21 MONT-1 NEB-4 NV-2 NH-2 NJ-6 NY-26 NC-13 NDKT-1 SDKT-4.OH-25 OK-9 ORE-7 PA-23 RI-3 SC-4 TN-5 TX-20 UT-1 VT-1 VA-13 WA ST-7 WA-DC-2 W VA-1 WI-9-The 426 states AZ-1 CANADA-5 CA-7 CO-3 GA-1 IL-1 IN-1 KAN-1 MD-1 MI-2 MO-1 NY-1 NC-1 OH-3 PA-1 SC-1 TX-3 WVA-1 WI-1 .Total #501 465- 440 Hemi-36 for the 47 states 1 line was unreadable unknown state. 2 cars were 440 dodge exec cars with no dealer location in house cars and figured in with the MI total.Only #3 states didnt recie~e 69 Daytona on this current list Alaska-New Mexico-Wyoming

[ramairthree]

Thank you for the detailed information.
Of the only 5 in Mass, I can see why the Greenville and Greenfield looks like such a possibility.  I know of dealerships in VT where brothers swapped cars between each other.  I am thinking there may have been a swap.

[maxwellwedge]

Either a dealer trade or maybe it was a used demo. Who put the mags on?

[tan top]

good story thanks for sharing  RA three   would be good if you could local the thing !! 

[hemigeno]

The Mass cars from the shipping list are as follows:

356506 - no info
379726 - V2, auto
400585 - no color info
355111 - F6, Auto but black interior according to the WW'79 list.  Galen has the Broadcast Sheet for this car
386563 - R4 4-speed according to the WW/79 list.  **Edit** This is a Mississippi car not MA (found an error on the shipping list)

Its definitely possible that the car was traded from one dealership to another, and if the car sat on a dealership's lot for any appreciable time, its chances of being traded off probably increased exponentially.

Wasn't Massachusetts the state that complained about the Daytona not having a bumper?  ramair, was the car initially licensed/titled in Mass, and were there any issues with the nosecone not having a bumper that you recall?

Also, thanks for posting your story and picture!!!

[tan top]

i think your right it was Massachusets ..re call reading something about the front bumpers 

[69_500]

Gene, I thought it was Delaware that was complaining about the front bumpers on the cars. I could be wrong there though.

Its not unusual for the cars to have been swapped from dealer to dealer back then. According to the "shipment" list there wasn't any Daytona's for sale new in New Castle Indiana, yet they sold 2 out of there.

[ramairthree]

Thank you for all the feed back guys.
I do not know how it got the wheels. I never drove it or owned it, or even seen it since I was a little kid.
I was born in 1968, and only remember the car from when I was 3 or 4 until it was sold when I was about about 8.
I think it was literally sold for about 1500$.  A few zeros short of current value.  I don't even have the name of who it was sold to.

(I do know who bought the Z28, back when I was 7 or so- and in an email found out they sold it ages and ages ago- another whereabouts unknown car)


It was definately a 440 car and not a hemi.  It was automatic, and a white interior.  The green and white in the picture is the original color.

It is also the first car I distinctly remember checking out hood pins on, and how cool that is.

I thought the pop up head lights were so cool then, that the desire for them has stuck with me.  (As you can see from the picture, keeping hideaways working correctly is not just a current with vintage cars, they were a pain when new also!)


Although bought from Mass, the car was registered in Vermont where we lived.  I do not know how many miles were on it, but was specifically told it was "new" from the show room and titled for the first time when we got it, despite being 71 or so when we got it.  I remember inspection stickers from when I was a kid, so I assume it needed one.  But bumper or not my Dad owned the gas station/garage and was where people got their inspections, so there would have been no trouble getting it.  (To this day there is no cell phone coverage in the town, and the garage remains on rt 112 with a new owner.  The pumps are newer and moved further off the road, but still only two of them, and no credit card device on them.  You still get your gas pumped there- and its a single bay with a lift just like it was.  Not exactly the place that would have been a stickler for inspection sticker criteria in the early 70s even if it was not his.)

[nh_mopar_fan]

I swear I saw one on the showroom of Clark Chrysler Plymouth in Lawrence.

I think it was orange.

[ramairthree]

Ok,
  I got Mom double checking (for the quadruple time) with the lady that used to work there, and the family friend that also test drove it once, and the guy that went with my Dad to drive him back after selling it.  (Dad would have know most about the car, but like I said, died in an accident when I was 12- we missed out on a lot together)

  I pretty much realize that without the VIN, it may be impossible to locate.  Even with the VIN,
I am not sure how many Daytonas are acutally accounted for today,
either because they still exist or it is known what happened to them,
and how many no one knows what happened to.

  It does have me thinking hard about a clone.

Is there a link on this forum that tells what you need?

I would only be concerned with external appearance,
which I think would require
a 1970 with
wing
wing braces
window plug
shortened rear deck
nose cone
headlight buckets, etc.
fender scoops
hood mods
hood pins
front grill
radiator extension
I can't remember if tail lights need a mod

or a 1969
with all of the above plus 70 fenders
which would give correct year and interior

Anyways, what I think amounts to about 10K or so in parts.
Which added to a good car, time, labor, etc. makes for a good chunk of change.

Original, real cars of many models are often worth what you put into them, or more.

But, I am thinking this might be like a Lemans, Skylark, or Chevelle than someone could throw 30K into making a Judge, GSX, or LS6 clone and be lucky if it would sell for 15K. I might be way off in my thinking,
I guess I should look into the Daytona clone market and see what is out there.

Thanks again for all info and replies.

[A383Wing]

i think your right it was Massachusets ..re call reading something about the front bumpers 

I thought it was Maine, not Massachusets

[nascarxx29]

I know for a fact one of the banned wingcar states was Maryland for starters

[hemigeno]

Yeah, it was Maryland and not MA.  My mistake...  That's what I get for not looking things up   

[A383Wing]

Yeah, it was Maryland and not MA.  My mistake...  That's what I get for not looking things up   

yea...that's it.....

[Alaskan_TA]

If the car was insured, & your mom's insurance carrier is still in business, they may still have the VIN listed in her file.

My carrier has a THICK file on me, it includes a car I bought at age 16, which was quite a long time ago.......

[hotrod98]

"But, I am thinking this might be like a Lemans, Skylark, or Chevelle than someone could throw 30K into making a Judge, GSX, or LS6 clone and be lucky if it would sell for 15K. I might be way off in my thinking,"

Anything that you spend money on that makes you happy is a good thing. Life is short...play hard.

[dillon14]

I just finished my Dayton clone up here in Maine. PM me if you want to know what it cost to put one together like mine. There not cheap.

[charge-it]

Hey Al, nice Daytona! This is Mark down in Lewiston. I'm just finishing up my 68 Charger bullitt clone. I would love to take a cruise up and check out your latest accomplishment. ( I'm the one that came up with Rick and sold you a b body door for your 70 Hemi car.)

[dillon14]

Rick,

Yes I remember when you came up. Too bad you couldn't make it to the Owls Head Transportation Museum today. I am taking the Daytona (clone) down there for its debut. Come down anytime to take a look at the Daytona. Still tweaking some things on it.

Al

[ramairthree]

that is very nice!

thanks for the good pics.  the black with red is very sharp.  Ours was an F6 with white interior, and as wild as that looks and cool for the time, the more basic red and black is what I find very cool and like.

I have thought long and hard about my wing car desires,
and searched up a good bit about it recently.

It boils down to-
a wing car is the first car I ever remember riding in
sticks out in my mind as bad ass
no real hopes to ever find let alone afford that car.
Several tax free months courtesy of Uncle Sam may fund a run of the mill, non numbers matching Ford or GM muscle car- but wing cars are mortgage level purchases.
Plus, I want something I can drive for fun a lot and take to the track.

Even if money were not object, and I won the lottery,
a real Superbird or Daytona should not be subjected to that.  they may have been built for it,
but out of rarity I think those days are over for them.

I compared long and hard the various options,
and the total cost of a great Daytona clone are not small.

I even found a clone for sale that has been discussed here-

http://www.myhotcars.com/inventory.html?vin=XP29G0G115100XXXX

I am not sure if anyone has checked it out close in person, and my math may be wrong,
but I don't think I could take a project car, parts, and all the way through paint, etc. for less than 70% of that cost to reach that level of appearance.
And that would be years from now being done. 
But, even in the ~ 50K range, that is a lot of money for a car to play with. 
To be honest, it would meet and exceed my needs (as long as that 440 is enough to move it low 13s or better down the track)

Is my math totally off?
There is a lot of work I would not be able to do myself,
the parts are not run of the mill or cheap,
and 30K ish is the number I come up with for a decent appearing, mostly correct looking  clone.

Any thoughts on this or on the one for sale?  It costs as much or more as my daily driver RT Challenger, and my weekend 69 GTO combined.

The least expensive, least modifications needed vehicle I can come up with that would meet my desires is:
Basically- a 1970 Dodge Charger
with wing braces, wing,
nose cone and working headlights, hood pins, fender scoops and good drive train-
and Daytona paint scheme would meet the needs.
(could I live with different interior- yes, different year- yes, different taillight- yes, no plug-yes)

a little better to me would be a 69 with the same additions, just needed the additional cost of the 70 hood/fenders.

So, a Charger with the basic wing car appearance and enough drive train for a 13 second car, when all is said and done- meets all my reasons for wanting one-
nostalgia,
childhood memories,
speed (it may be nothing now- but a 13 seconds/high 12s car you could drive anywhere was a very bad ass car in my youth and teens)
looks


Depending on the car I start with-
and it can be a drag car rescue of a 69 or 70,
as long as it still has a rear seat-
it can be a bench seat, column shift, former 318 car with a roll cage as far as I am concerned)
then Stinger nose
Stinger wing
headlights (as long as they come on and can be manually raised/lowered, thats cool to start)
scoops
good steel brackets
steel tray
steel wing braces,
etc.
I think I can have a car acceptable to me for the 15Kish range at a bare minimum,
probably closer to 20K.  I have an 04 Xterra that is paid for and worth about 10K, that, when sold combined with a military bonus will fund the car.

Again, am I smoking crack, or is this possible?  Should I be expecting a lot less or a lot more in the 15 to 20K range?

I got a backyard restored real 242 vin 69 GTO that started life as a vinyl top regular 350hp 400 automatic,
and had engine upped to RAIII specs, converted to a Muncie with Hurst Shifter,
then I added cable,parts for working Ram Air scoops/flaps, Judge appearance, aftermarket underdash 8 track, etc. and it is no show car and not set up to be fast at track, but it's like a 16K car right now.  Far below what a factory orginal RAIII 4-speed, let alone Judge would cost in similar condition.  its not the same 69 I had in high school, its worth only real GTO, not real Judge dollars, but gives me all the fun.

It meets my basic muscle car performance desires (but not my 13 second quarter)



Has acceptable looks



and, yes, the childhood Daytona did ignite my working headlight desires, which I still think are cool on any car!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GxGE9QI3z4

Anyways, to those that think only real Superbirds and Daytonas should have wing car appearance, I apologize.
To those that think clones should only be 100% accurate, I apologize.
And I sincerely mean those apologies.

But, for those that understand the more basic needs and limited budget builds, thanks for understanding and I appreciate any advice, tips, feedback.

[A383Wing]

I got about $25k into this one...started with a '70 500....no plug, working headlights, real NASCAR wing...

Bryan

[hotrod98]

Be sure and do yourself a favor and do a little more research on parts. It gets a lttle expensive buying up parts only to realize that they don't meet your expectations. I've owned two complete sets of parts for my clone already. Many of the Daytona parts that I bought originally were nice, but just not quite nice enough. You should be able to buy all of the premium parts for around 10K if you go the vega plug route or around 14K if you use a correct steel plug and correct back glass.
Add to that the labor for installation, paint and the 70 front end if needed. You can still buy a pretty nice 69 Charger for 15K. I would say that by the time you're finished, you'll have around 35K to 40K in a very nice Daytona clone. Less if you do all of the labor yourself and find a better deal on a donor car.
As for resale value, I've been offered 40K for mine and it's not even finished yet. Mine is an original triple black R/T SE car though which makes it worth a little more to begin with.
Keep us informed of your progress if you decide to go forward with this project.