Better buy that new Charger or Challenger NOW.

[Ghoste]

Based on maybe but built where?   And even if it one of the token foreign cars built here, where do the corporate profits ultimately go?  A good portion of the American cars are built or assembled out of country but at least the profits come back.

[Landonsrt]

Based on maybe but built where?   And even if it one of the token foreign cars built here, where do the corporate profits ultimately go?  A good portion of the American cars are built or assembled out of country but at least the profits come back.

Exactly, It might have had a mitsu motor but was built in the US and profits stayed here!Most of it anyway. And I dont own it anymore!

[Landonsrt]

And by the way, Im surprised your not the average top gear enthusiast that only thinks the good cars are the ones built As they call it "right" overseas. Since they sey we cant build anything. and that our cars, like the vette still ride on leaf springs??? What the F**** is Jeremy Clarkson talking about anyway? Last time I looked and since I was a GM service Advisor for 7 years, Vettes and almost every other domestic and foreign cars have Mcpherson Strut designed suspensions!

If they want a domestic car to be as good as foriegn autos. Get rid of all the unionized labor that takes all the extra money that could be used to fit and polish our cars! When have you ever seen a decent car come from Russia? That way we could justify selling cars at a starting price of $50K like most euro cars that are decent have a starting price of!

[451-74Charger]

Get rid of all the unionized labor that takes all the extra money that could be used to fit and polish our cars!

I agree there, having lived in the Coventry area (see Triumph, Jaguar, Rover, Austin, Healey, Cluley.....far too many to name), the Unions killed the British car industry, that and the lazy a$$ workers taking their sleeping bags to work for the night shift.

This whole car industry needs waking up, its been laying back on its laurells and heritage far too long.

I feel sorry for those that lose their jobs (ive been outsourced and laid off too many times in my market). People say the execs get paid too much, well if your sucessful, then it shouldnt matter. Now that Chrysler and GM have had to be bailed out by our money, we should have a say in how the company is split up/sold off or ran. Let the enthusiasts suggest improvements, not the penny counters and litigation lawyers.


I guess thats hoping for too much.

[Ghoste]

Quality doesn't have anything to do with whether or not workers are unionized.  It's a common whipping boy and having worked in both union and non union shops I can tell you with certainty that there are plenty of things to hate about unions but it isn't the reasons the common media have brainwashed us into believing.
Does the union protect assholes?  Yes, it does and thats wrong.  The non union places I worked had lazy jerkoffs too, they just couldn't wear it like a uniform the way the union jerk can.
As for union wages, many of the non union auto plants do pretty well too and oddly enough, the same people who will tell you that union workers are overpaid will frequently be the same people who will tell you that most of the American car makers do all or a good part of their car building out of country.
The biggest problem as I see it with Big Three production styles is their clinging to the American version of mass production.  As long as the lines run it can all be made to look good on paper.  Park the extra units on a lot someplace and force the dealers to take them (unless they change their methods, that last bit is going to become interesting as we enter the next decade with so many fewer dealers).
They need to adopt the lean production methods and build units as they sell them.  Someone will chime in here and talk about the union won't let them but I will head that off and say that it's more brainwashing.  Yes, the union resists it and they tell them on the shop floor that it will reduce the number of employees.  It will and it will also reduce the amount of "dues" they can rake in.  At the higher levels of the union executive boards, they also know that it is necessary to save the patient.  The companies also know it's needed but too many of the highest executives rely on pounding those units out the door the old fashioned way.  Lots of cars off the line means lots of big numbers to show them on Wall Street and get those stock values up.  I don't know if it is still true but at one time Japanese workers would stay with one company their whole life, including executives.  In North America the education system even tells us that we must work for many different employers and that it is good to continually re-invent ourselves.  That is why we get an automotive CEO whose last job was CEO for a hardware and lumber company.  That's why they don't care.  It's about short term gain with stock options and quickly move to the next widget company, it makes no difference if it's a car or a 2X4.
The blame is shared and it has little to nothing to do with the dumb schmuck on the line who just wants to get enough money to pay his mortgage and send his kids to college so they won't have to work in a factory and maybe have enough left over to make the payments on a boat or Harley or something.

[Aero426]

And by the way, Im surprised your not the average top gear enthusiast that only thinks the good cars are the ones built As they call it "right" overseas. Since they sey we cant build anything. and that our cars, like the vette still ride on leaf springs??? What the F**** is Jeremy Clarkson talking about anyway? Last time I looked and since I was a GM service Advisor for 7 years, Vettes and almost every other domestic and foreign cars have Mcpherson Strut designed suspensions!

Landon, what are you smoking?    Even the current Vette does not have MacPherson strut suspension, front or rear.   Yes, it has a leaf spring in the rear.

[Rustymuscle]

I would encourage many of you to please read this:
http://www.watercraft.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=278

This is one of my online editorials for Personal Watercraft Illustrated. Currently the motorsports industry is in some pretty dire straits - negotiability worse off than the US automakers because there's no government or cache of uber-wealthy bankers willing to bail them out.

While various politicians greased by the ever-persuasive lobbyist dollar dictates which way the US automakers are to turn, the motorsport industry (UTV, motorcycle, PWC, ATV, etc.) has nobody to rely on but themselves and their customers. Unfortunately, with the US dollar worth about half the value of the paper its printed on, people haven't been interested in buying a new motorcycle or Jet Ski lately.

I made it a very clear point that the single greatest voice an American can have is not with his vote, but with his hard-earned money. The money earned from a day's labor has far more sway in the long term than any administration.

I state and continue to preach that supporting companies, establishments, and businesses with your money is the best way to participate in supporting the American economy. For 130 years, this country stood on a solid political isolationist foundation. This was established by George Washington's second inaugural speech where he decreed that this nation should never be "chained to any foreign treaty that would infringe upon this nation's sovereignty apart from those pertaining to fiscal benefit and trade."

While many might disagree with Nitrox's charge, I feel that reversing the industrial exodus that has been occurring in this country is paramount to saving its economy and way of life. America needs to return to producing its own steel, it's own plastics, lumber, medicine, tooling, and machinery. "World Economies" are destructive and directly infringe upon each individual nation's sovereignty - ability to rule and govern itself. What works for one country may not work for another. Do not think that Japan or England can be as self-reliant as the US. That too, is a lie.

Support America's economy by purchasing American. Support America by being industrious. You are not owed anything. Nobody owes you retirement, free medicine, a house, rent, or groceries. Like Abraham Lincoln stated, "Stand on your own two feet like your Heavenly Father intended you to do."

[Landonsrt]

And by the way, Im surprised your not the average top gear enthusiast that only thinks the good cars are the ones built As they call it "right" overseas. Since they sey we cant build anything. and that our cars, like the vette still ride on leaf springs??? What the F**** is Jeremy Clarkson talking about anyway? Last time I looked and since I was a GM service Advisor for 7 years, Vettes and almost every other domestic and foreign cars have Mcpherson Strut designed suspensions!

Landon, what are you smoking?    Even the current Vette does not have MacPherson strut suspension, front or rear.   Yes, it has a leaf spring in the rear.

How in the hell do you call an independent coil over suspension system a leaf spring suspension??? I just consider a traditiona; leaf as you would see on trucks,older cars like the chargers.

[Landonsrt]

Sorry, Double independent wishbone suspensions. Coil over shocks.

[bull]

Speaking to ALL of America...

If you had bought American, you wouldnt have to bail America out. To Hell with foreigners. Support yourselves for once.

If "American" cars weren't made in Mexico and Canada you'd have a point. I'd almost be willing to bet that more Hondas and Toyotas were made in the US (or at least a higher percentage of each car) during the past 5-10 years than Dodges and Chryslers.

[451-74Charger]

All six generations of the Corvette have used leaf springs in some capacity. The basic arrangement for each generation is listed as follows:

C1 (1953-1962):
Front: Independent unequal-length double wishbones with coil springs
Rear: Rigid axle supported by leaf springs and longitudinal control links [1]
C2 (1963-1967), C3 (1968-1982):
Front: Independent unequal-length double wishbones with coil springs
Rear: Independent suspension with trailing and lateral links supported by a centrally mounted leaf spring[2]
C4 (1984-1996):
Front: Independent unequal-length double wishbones with transverse fiberglass mono-leaf spring mounted to allow for anti-roll effect.
Rear: Independent suspension with trailing and lateral links supported by a centrally mounted fiberglass mono-leaf spring
C5 (1997-2004), C6 (2005-):
Front: Independent unequal-length double wishbones with transverse fiberglass mono-leaf spring mounted to allow for anti-roll effect.
Rear: Independent unequal length double wishbones with transverse fiberglass mono-leaf spring mounted to allow for anti-roll effect.

[TheGhost]

Bummer. No more new "Chargers" eh?

Yes, because it's a good thing that V-8 RWD performance cars are going to disappear.  I just LOVE FWD 4 bangers!  Ahhh, I can hear the annoying buzz of the engines now...

[MoparSam]

Kevin, all I can say is that you sized up the problem perfectly and provided the best solution in your article and post(especially supporting local small businesses), AMEN!!  I agree with Nitrox, America needs to be self reliant and people need to quit holding their hands out for freebee's!

[RAC95054]

Speaking to ALL of America...

If you had bought American, you wouldnt have to bail America out. To Hell with foreigners. Support yourselves for once.

I'm a true red-blooded American, and spend my money in places that give more Americans jobs.  It's not about buying American.  Hell, most companies based in America now farm out much of the work to India, China, Mexico and other cheaper labor places.  The cost of the labor is what has killed us.  If you want to paint some blame, put it on the unions (especially in the car of the car makers).  It's there in black and white in the cost difference to produce a car in Japan vs. the US.  And it's not that Japan is a 2nd or 3rd world country either (I've been there, and people live pretty well, albiet in more cramped space).  The goal of the government is to force GM and Chrysler to do what they needed to do long ago.  Ford will have to make some changes too, to keep up (if they are smart, they are already making plans).  Frankly, I'm all for competition.  If it weren't for the foreign companies making better cars, and showing us what crap the US companies were making, you'd still be getting crap.  Competition is what drives companies to do better, or else they go under.  What our government could do in regards to trade is reciprocate import duties that other countries do to what we import to them.  If Japan charges an extra 20% duty on every car, then we should do the same to theirs.  

The bottom line is, we've been asleep at the wheel for too long in this country, and not enough people educate themselves on the issues, and then either blindly cast their votes based on ads, or don't vote at all.  I'm tired of hearing people bitch about this and that, and when I asked them who/what you voted for, they look at me like what does that have to do with it.  Do your real duty as an American and be an educated voter!!

[1970Moparmann]

Kevin, all I can say is that you sized up the problem perfectly and provided the best solution in your article and post(especially supporting local small businesses), AMEN!!  I agree with Nitrox, America needs to be self reliant and people need to quit holding their hands out for freebee's!

[bull]

Bummer. No more new "Chargers" eh?

Yes, because it's a good thing that V-8 RWD performance cars are going to disappear.  I just LOVE FWD 4 bangers!  Ahhh, I can hear the annoying buzz of the engines now...

Crap is crap, V8 powered or not.

[Kevin68N71]

Speaking to ALL of America...

If you had bought American, you wouldnt have to bail America out. To Hell with foreigners. Support yourselves for once.

I'm a true red-blooded American, and spend my money in places that give more Americans jobs.  It's not about buying American.  Hell, most companies based in America now farm out much of the work to India, China, Mexico and other cheaper labor places.  The cost of the labor is what has killed us.  If you want to paint some blame, put it on the unions (especially in the car of the car makers).  It's there in black and white in the cost difference to produce a car in Japan vs. the US.  And it's not that Japan is a 2nd or 3rd world country either (I've been there, and people live pretty well, albiet in more cramped space).  The goal of the government is to force GM and Chrysler to do what they needed to do long ago.  Ford will have to make some changes too, to keep up (if they are smart, they are already making plans).  Frankly, I'm all for competition.  If it weren't for the foreign companies making better cars, and showing us what crap the US companies were making, you'd still be getting crap.  Competition is what drives companies to do better, or else they go under.  What our government could do in regards to trade is reciprocate import duties that other countries do to what we import to them.  If Japan charges an extra 20% duty on every car, then we should do the same to theirs. 
The bottom line is, we've been asleep at the wheel for too long in this country, and not enough people educate themselves on the issues, and then either blindly cast their votes based on ads, or don't vote at all.  I'm tired of hearing people bitch about this and that, and when I asked them who/what you voted for, they look at me like what does that have to do with it.  Do your real duty as an American and be an educated voter!!

Two points.  You mention "what the government is forcing them to do what they should have done....".  I don't agree.  The government, in Chrysler's instance, allowed 55% ownership of the company to go to UNIONS.  They literally forced a partnership with Fiat.  They are telling GM what kind of cars to make.  This isn't what they "should have done".  It's pink-goggled white unicorn fantasy land of what it takes to fix things.

I hate to say it, but these two companies should have been allowed to go bankrupt; reorganize, and get out of union contracts.  They would have come out leaner, and stronger.  Yes, some suppliers would have been hurt and permanently go out of business.  But I do NOT think it would be worse than what is going on here.  The government has not resolved the price disparity for union work, AND, they continue to lay on layer after layer of CAFE and safety standards. 

Why does anyone think that anything will change?  What is that old saying that you know someone is insane when they keep doing the same thing and don't understand why they get the same outcome?

It is NOT my job as a taxpayer to bail out GM.  Loans at a government guaranteed rate?  You got me on board.  We keep hearing that the taxpayer will see a profit on all this.  Oh yeah?  Would that be like the premium return check I got from my insurance company because I, without choice, got stuck with paying for airbags and third tail lights and black boxes on my car?  You mean like that?

[RAC95054]

The goal of the government is to force GM and Chrysler to do what they needed to do long ago.  


Two points.  You mention "what the government is forcing them to do what they should have done....".  I don't agree.  The government, in Chrysler's instance, allowed 55% ownership of the company to go to UNIONS.  They literally forced a partnership with Fiat.  They are telling GM what kind of cars to make.  This isn't what they "should have done".  It's pink-goggled white unicorn fantasy land of what it takes to fix things.

I hate to say it, but these two companies should have been allowed to go bankrupt; reorganize, and get out of union contracts.  They would have come out leaner, and stronger.  Yes, some suppliers would have been hurt and permanently go out of business.  But I do NOT think it would be worse than what is going on here.  The government has not resolved the price disparity for union work, AND, they continue to lay on layer after layer of CAFE and safety standards. 

Why does anyone think that anything will change?  What is that old saying that you know someone is insane when they keep doing the same thing and don't understand why they get the same outcome?

It is NOT my job as a taxpayer to bail out GM.  Loans at a government guaranteed rate?  You got me on board.  We keep hearing that the taxpayer will see a profit on all this.  Oh yeah?  Would that be like the premium return check I got from my insurance company because I, without choice, got stuck with paying for airbags and third tail lights and black boxes on my car?  You mean like that?

You are correct about the Chrysler deal being a bit more of a fantasy, and pushing too much onto Fiat.  My hope is they know what to do to streamline them (a fresh set of eyes so-to-speak), but my gut feel is "Chrysler" will be far different than we know them not a couple years down the road.  I do, however, feel the government felt they needed to save GM, being more of an icon than Chrysler, and that it's roots went far deeping into many suppliers.  Too much was at stake there (more job losses, then less tax revenue, then more crime, etc etc... who do you think would pay for that in the end??).  I just hope they get it at least mostly right, and they may pull out of it... in no less than 3-5 years, though.  I'm not happy that the people at the top still made plenty of money, and now we have to bail them out.  But I'd be less happy funding handouts for deadbeats that don't want to get another job.

[Landonsrt]

I 100% AGREE. GM and chrysler should have been allowed to declare bankruptcy. Look at Delta. They did it and look at them now. They shed all the extra weight and are doing great. Yeah people lost jobs but they have restructured themselves and can hire people back later. Albeit in smaller numbers.  Gm and chrysler get strangled by union labor. Dont tell me its a fairy tale story for us to believe that they do nothing wrong.
Why is it anytime they dont get something their way, they go on strike? Putting a stranglehold on the companies they are supposed to work for. Costing the companies they work for lots of money with stalled factories, lost auto sales, etc...
Im not in a union. if I did that, my ASS would be out of a job!!!

[Charger_Fan]

The banks shoudn't have been bailed out, either. They should have been allowed to fail...survival of the fittest would have taken over & after some very lean times for most Americans, the system would have emerged from the other side stronger & better.
Instead, we have a quagmire.

[Ghoste]

If it's all the unions fault, why isn't Mercedes failing?  (just as an example)

[Landonsrt]

Im not saying its all the union's fault. bad business deals, failed auto ventures, and mass producing the same car over too many brands certainly didnt help. Why would you need 4 different versions of a Malibu? My point about union labor is your overpaying someone to sit on their ass. Just like your local government employee. I know there are union workers out there that actually do work for their money. IMO its just like the gov. protecting people on wellfare and disability that dont really want to work.

[1970Moparmann]

If it's all the unions fault, why isn't Mercedes failing?  (just as an example)

Mercedes doesn't produce the volume of a GM or Chrysler.  Also, Mercedes is a class tier type of vehicle option.  Government Motors is going to be a joke moving forward, and Chrysler, and the banking institutions and pretty soon health care industry.  There should not have been any government involvement at all.... Let capitalism run how it should. 

[Ghoste]

So unions are only bad in a high volume situation?

[1970Moparmann]

So unions are only bad in a high volume situation?

I for one didn't say that the Unions are the whole problem.  I was just talking to a fellow Mopar person who works at a GM plant in IN and he told me how wasteful GM is.  How screwed up GM was....... Pertaining to unions though, what he did say is a major problem is the amount of money that goes out from GM for pension funds and medical costs-this needs to be addressed.  GM should have filed by itself without any Government involvement, and came out years down the road a better company.  This would have also helped in Union negotiations.   

As for the Mercedes issues, it's my opinion that Mercedes isn't in the market to produce a middle class or under middle class vehicle.  The big three are targeting all markets, and thus need to be very competitive in quality and price.  Mercedes on the other hand, I'm sure, make a hell of a lot more money on a vehicle, thus minimizing the extra spending exposure...