Better buy that new Charger or Challenger NOW.

[Kevin68N71]

Disturbing news folks.  The chief engineer at Fiat stated:

Rinolfi doesn't expect Fiat technology will be applied to Chrysler's biggest engines, including 6-liter ones, which he said are destined to disappear "the way the dinosaurs did."

So, my hope that the BEST of both worlds--Dodge high performance cars and good trucks and (hopefully) decent quality small cars and the really cool Fiat 500 would make for a nice array of choices--is not what is going to happen.

The good stuff Chrysler makes, the Charger, Challenger, and large engined trucks, will be discontinued. They will simply use the facilities and machinery that they got at a bargain price and churn out Americanized Puntos and other crap. They won't have the perceived quality of Toyotas or Hondas, so I don't know how well they will do.  Mopar as we know it--new Super Bees, Chargers, Challengers, are on their way out--at least how it apparently sits now.

Nice news to hear. The good stuff goes away, replaced with crap--not because the stuff is no good or not selling, but because our government says we don't "need" it.

Mark my words.  The "New GM" will shelve the Corvette, the new Camaro (because the "Administration" says we don't need it) and your choice from GM will be nice re-badged Chinese cars.  Oh, some of those new Indian trucks I hear coming.

Maybe my next car is a Shelby Mustang.

[Khyron]

agreed, Mustangs for everyone!

that 2010 one is swett

[Hemidoug]

Come on...you didn't see THAT coming with that Nazi buying up every important corporation in sight? I guess you have had your eyes opened......

[Mike DC]

   
Gas prices remaining at a reasonable level?  Or the soccer moms all driving 9mpg trucks?   

Take your pick.

[bull]

Bummer. No more new "Chargers" eh?

[GN]

Just likr Diamler did to Chrysler.

[Mike DC]

It sucks, but we could see this coming years ago.

Challengers & Camaros & Mustangs are definitely something to buy right now if you want one.  They will not survive this gas crisis very long in their current form.

[Forza]

Bummer. No more new "Chargers" eh?

lol, Ahh shucks

[Rustymuscle]

A little bit of homework rendered these very interesting and contradicting results:

[All blue notes are mine]

All quotes taken from the following article found at www.time.com
Is Chrysler Too Big a Mess for Fiat's Turnaround Artista?
By Peter Gumbel

Below you will find a quote not from Italian-Canandian Sergio Marchionne, CEO of Fiat, but the author himself:

"If [Sergio] Marchionne is to succeed, he needs above all to reposition Chrysler from maker of clunky, overpowered gas guzzlers to purveyor of must-own, energy-efficient vehicles. "The challenge for Fiat Chrysler is to move away from popular products and into 'pop' products, full of cool environmental technology and on the right side of history," says Carlo Alberto Carnevale, a professor of strategic management at Bocconi University's business school in Milan and a close watcher of Fiat."

In reality, Marchionne has a far more progressive and - more importantly - harmonious view of how the merger and ultimate reorganization of Chrysler and its product line should go:

"On June 10, the day Fiat sealed the deal, he announced a thorough organizational revamp. From now on, each of the four individual brands--Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge and Mopar (which makes parts)--will be distinct business units responsible for profit and loss. [bold added by me] He also reached deep into the ranks, bypassing the engineers and putting a younger, energetic generation of managers with marketing experience in charge of the brands. "That's a mirror image of what he did at Fiat," says a longtime Fiat executive. Next up: installing Fiat production platforms at Chrysler plants and using Fiat's sales network to sell Jeeps and other Chrysler models around the world."

"He encourages Fiat managers to take a close look at Apple's branding prowess and even asks them to benchmark their activities against the company. For at Chrysler, he's moving, just as he did at Fiat, to restructure the organization, overhaul production, revamp the lineup, motivate a beaten-down workforce and deal with prickly shareholders--this time including the U.S. government. [Marchionne wrote,] "My job as CEO is not to make decisions about the business but to set stretch objectives and help our managers work out how to reach them."

The reality is that Marchionne is directly opposed to how Daimler's Dieter Zetsche ruled the reorganized Daimler-Chrysler. Contrary to Zetsche's complete reconstruction of the brand, its appeal and product line, Machionne is interested in banking on Chrysler's existing popular interest and appeal to create a brand familiarity as strong as Apple. As a once professional automotive journalist, I can safely predict that this implies less "revolution" and more "evolution" in Chrysler.

Chrysler has already announced and presented EV electric vehicles, bio-fuel friendly diesel vehicles and other alternative fuel powerplants. Will the SRT's vanish? Doubtful, especially as Marchionne has more interest in crossbreeding more Chrysler influence into Fiat's other brand, Alfa Romeo.

All following quotes are pulled from the www.freep.com
Reborn Chrysler gets a European makeover
By Greg Gardner

"Led by Sergio Craver in Turin, Italy, Alfa Romeo will be the brand under which Fiat returns to the U.S. market. The need for a more competitive midsize car - probably Chrysler's weakest segment - has dogged the company for at least two years."

"The most likely choice appears to be a rear-wheel drive car that will share the basic dimensions of the 2011 Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger. Fiat has looked at designing an Alfa Romeo 169 off the same structure."

[68charger383]

Looks like 1974 is coming all over again 

[1969chargerrtse]

I don't see why GM would stop the Camaro?  They had said themselves that that car is on a waiting list and one of the few things bringing money for them.

[Kevin68N71]

I don't see why GM would stop the Camaro?  They had said themselves that that car is on a waiting list and one of the few things bringing money for them.

Here's the reasons:

1) Our President
2) The administration dictating what kinds of cars to make if you take government money
3) Listening to the environmentalists
4) The prevailing wisdom in some parts that ugly Toyota Pruises and Hondas are exciting and good looking cars
5) To be blunt, the "pussification" of males generally speaking who think comparing their MPG is an exciting course of conversation and a drive in a 440 powered car would scar them for life
6) Price of gas and the knee jerk reactions of alot of people
7) The ongoing misinformation, disinformation and outright bias that American cars are completely inferior to European/Japanese cars, and the justification to ape eurasian cars rather than be creative, bright and take risks on distinctly American products
Continued management by gutless wonders like Rick Wagonner (gone now) and guys who happily admit to "knowing nothing about cars"

Rusty is pointing out some good information, we can only keep our fingers crossed.

Heck, the Corvette was "on its way out" how many times?  And who would have thought we would have the fastest, most brutal Shelby Mustangs EVER in 2010?

[Landonsrt]

Plain and simple and to not get too political, we will all drive the same little smartfortwo type POS cars. Work different hard labor jobs, or sit on our asses and make the same amount of money and let the government take everything they can from us while or society turns into a communist controlled (democracy) where everyone has the right to do as they are told!!!


Goodbye ZR1, Viper, Challenger, Camaro, Mustang, Silverado, Ram, F150, Charger, 300C, Impala SS(never impressed anyway), anything sport or V8 oriented!!

[Armudster]

Plain and simple and to not get too political, we will all drive the same little smartfortwo type POS cars. Work different hard labor jobs, or sit on our asses and make the same amount of money and let the government take everything they can from us while or society turns into a communist controlled (democracy) where everyone has the right to do as they are told!!!


Goodbye ZR1, Viper, Challenger, Camaro, Mustang, Silverado, Ram, F150, Charger, 300C, Impala SS(never impressed anyway), anything sport or V8 oriented!!

That's exactly what's happening, the government will take more and more control of our lifes, muscle cars are over now, it's in times like this that I begin wondering if the whole recession was purposely created, just my 
  If you had trouble accepting the 4 door Charger just imagine if Fiat wanted to make their own version and bring back the name with a piece of crap economic 4 banger? 

Sorry if I appear too political, but I'm only saying what is in front of my eyes

[bull]

A little bit of homework rendered these very interesting and contradicting results:

[All blue notes are mine]

All quotes taken from the following article found at www.time.com
Is Chrysler Too Big a Mess for Fiat's Turnaround Artista?
By Peter Gumbel

Below you will find a quote not from Italian-Canandian Sergio Marchionne, CEO of Fiat, but the author himself:

"If [Sergio] Marchionne is to succeed, he needs above all to reposition Chrysler from maker of clunky, overpowered gas guzzlers to purveyor of must-own, energy-efficient vehicles."

I wonder what the author would say about clunky, overpowered gas-guzzlers made in Italy? Is there more room in the world for Ferraris that get 9 mpg if we eliminate SRT8 Challengers that get 13? What an idiot.

[Kevin68N71]

A little bit of homework rendered these very interesting and contradicting results:

[All blue notes are mine]

All quotes taken from the following article found at www.time.com
Is Chrysler Too Big a Mess for Fiat's Turnaround Artista?
By Peter Gumbel

Below you will find a quote not from Italian-Canandian Sergio Marchionne, CEO of Fiat, but the author himself:

"If [Sergio] Marchionne is to succeed, he needs above all to reposition Chrysler from maker of clunky, overpowered gas guzzlers to purveyor of must-own, energy-efficient vehicles."

I wonder what the author would say about clunky, overpowered gas-guzzlers made in Italy? Is there more room in the world for Ferraris that get 9 mpg if we eliminate SRT8 Challengers that get 13? What an idiot.

Good point.  The guy is writing for Time, so that's about their speed.

[Red Ram]

I have my old Charger, that's what I care about...most new cars (that I can afford) are just transportation anyway. If the market is there for muscle cars they'll build them.

Something has to change from the way things were going...I have a positive outlook for the future...wouldn't mind if they were to ban Dukes of Hazzard re-runs!  

[Nitrox]

Speaking to ALL of America...

If you had bought American, you wouldnt have to bail America out. To Hell with foreigners. Support yourselves for once.

[Magnumcharger]

Speaking to ALL of America...

If you had bought American, you wouldnt have to bail America out. To Hell with foreigners. Support yourselves for once.

[Tilar]

Speaking to ALL of America...

If you had bought American, you wouldnt have to bail America out. To Hell with foreigners. Support yourselves for once.

I don't totally agree with that. Close but not totally. I used to buy and sell cars for a little extra income, and still do on a lot smaller scale. Down to a couple a year now. I've done this for the last 30 years. One thing I very rarely did is buy something foreign. It had to be a real bargain. Buying used foreign cars still creates a market for a new one. If they can't sell the old ones they wont buy new ones.

Starting somewhere between the end of the 70's or early 80's and up until the mid 90's, Our country put out some real crap for cars. Not because they didn't know how to build cars, But because our government put such restrictions on them for fuel mileage and the EPA with emissions that they skimped on quality to keep up their profit margin because they still had to sell them and pay the union wages. I'm not so sure the foreign cars were required to do the same.  Plus by this time American automakers had the reputation that they were putting out crap cars compared to foreign. A bad reputation is hard to get rid of. Sometimes it stays with you forever even if/when you do change your ways.


Somewhere along this time the trade regulations stopped. The government used to add import taxes that sort of kept the prices in line between foreign and domestic cars keeping jobs at home and keeping everything sort of competative.

The way I see it, If our government were to implement a system where everything we imported had to have a matching export, all of our jobs would return to the states. Maybe not a dollar for dollar trade but it has to be measured someway and it has to be fair for both sides.  Maybe someway it could be regulated per capita. We buy so much from you, you have to buy X amount from us to match your population.

[451-74Charger]

Speaking to ALL of America...

To Hell with foreigners. Support yourselves for once.

Hey, im a Foreigner, and I bought American...
I have 2 Jeep Grand Cherokees (1 hemi, the other not), and 2 Pontiac Transams, and a Charger.
I pay the same for my gas that the Prius owner does, i just use more (a hell of a lot more).
My wife and Son are Americans, so I think you statement is a little out of place here on this board.
I dont want the topic locked or removed, but comments like that arent welcome here !!!!!

PS. my VERY first car (in England, was ........ A General Lee (not a copy or some Eurotrash Fartbox).

[elanmars]

Speaking to ALL of America...

If you had bought American, you wouldnt have to bail America out. To Hell with foreigners. Support yourselves for once.

that's pretty offensive, ignorant and xenophobic.

[Tilar]

I don't think he meant that in a way you two are taking it. Don't take it personal unless you own honda or toyota or other foreign car company.

[Landonsrt]

Yeah, I think he just meant foreign trash cars. Not so much people. I have never owned a foreign auto, NEVER WILL!!!! Ive had nothing but GM, Dodge and one Ford... My wife has a new Maxima, but my name aint on it!!

[451-74Charger]

So that Mitsubishi...sory Dodge neon you driving is American?


Nearly all late model US cars are based on or are rebadged Foreign cars. (heck the Jeep GC uses the Mercedes floorplan)

[Ghoste]

Based on maybe but built where?   And even if it one of the token foreign cars built here, where do the corporate profits ultimately go?  A good portion of the American cars are built or assembled out of country but at least the profits come back.

[Landonsrt]

Based on maybe but built where?   And even if it one of the token foreign cars built here, where do the corporate profits ultimately go?  A good portion of the American cars are built or assembled out of country but at least the profits come back.

Exactly, It might have had a mitsu motor but was built in the US and profits stayed here!Most of it anyway. And I dont own it anymore!

[Landonsrt]

And by the way, Im surprised your not the average top gear enthusiast that only thinks the good cars are the ones built As they call it "right" overseas. Since they sey we cant build anything. and that our cars, like the vette still ride on leaf springs??? What the F**** is Jeremy Clarkson talking about anyway? Last time I looked and since I was a GM service Advisor for 7 years, Vettes and almost every other domestic and foreign cars have Mcpherson Strut designed suspensions!

If they want a domestic car to be as good as foriegn autos. Get rid of all the unionized labor that takes all the extra money that could be used to fit and polish our cars! When have you ever seen a decent car come from Russia? That way we could justify selling cars at a starting price of $50K like most euro cars that are decent have a starting price of!

[451-74Charger]

Get rid of all the unionized labor that takes all the extra money that could be used to fit and polish our cars!

I agree there, having lived in the Coventry area (see Triumph, Jaguar, Rover, Austin, Healey, Cluley.....far too many to name), the Unions killed the British car industry, that and the lazy a$$ workers taking their sleeping bags to work for the night shift.

This whole car industry needs waking up, its been laying back on its laurells and heritage far too long.

I feel sorry for those that lose their jobs (ive been outsourced and laid off too many times in my market). People say the execs get paid too much, well if your sucessful, then it shouldnt matter. Now that Chrysler and GM have had to be bailed out by our money, we should have a say in how the company is split up/sold off or ran. Let the enthusiasts suggest improvements, not the penny counters and litigation lawyers.


I guess thats hoping for too much.

[Ghoste]

Quality doesn't have anything to do with whether or not workers are unionized.  It's a common whipping boy and having worked in both union and non union shops I can tell you with certainty that there are plenty of things to hate about unions but it isn't the reasons the common media have brainwashed us into believing.
Does the union protect assholes?  Yes, it does and thats wrong.  The non union places I worked had lazy jerkoffs too, they just couldn't wear it like a uniform the way the union jerk can.
As for union wages, many of the non union auto plants do pretty well too and oddly enough, the same people who will tell you that union workers are overpaid will frequently be the same people who will tell you that most of the American car makers do all or a good part of their car building out of country.
The biggest problem as I see it with Big Three production styles is their clinging to the American version of mass production.  As long as the lines run it can all be made to look good on paper.  Park the extra units on a lot someplace and force the dealers to take them (unless they change their methods, that last bit is going to become interesting as we enter the next decade with so many fewer dealers).
They need to adopt the lean production methods and build units as they sell them.  Someone will chime in here and talk about the union won't let them but I will head that off and say that it's more brainwashing.  Yes, the union resists it and they tell them on the shop floor that it will reduce the number of employees.  It will and it will also reduce the amount of "dues" they can rake in.  At the higher levels of the union executive boards, they also know that it is necessary to save the patient.  The companies also know it's needed but too many of the highest executives rely on pounding those units out the door the old fashioned way.  Lots of cars off the line means lots of big numbers to show them on Wall Street and get those stock values up.  I don't know if it is still true but at one time Japanese workers would stay with one company their whole life, including executives.  In North America the education system even tells us that we must work for many different employers and that it is good to continually re-invent ourselves.  That is why we get an automotive CEO whose last job was CEO for a hardware and lumber company.  That's why they don't care.  It's about short term gain with stock options and quickly move to the next widget company, it makes no difference if it's a car or a 2X4.
The blame is shared and it has little to nothing to do with the dumb schmuck on the line who just wants to get enough money to pay his mortgage and send his kids to college so they won't have to work in a factory and maybe have enough left over to make the payments on a boat or Harley or something.

[Aero426]

And by the way, Im surprised your not the average top gear enthusiast that only thinks the good cars are the ones built As they call it "right" overseas. Since they sey we cant build anything. and that our cars, like the vette still ride on leaf springs??? What the F**** is Jeremy Clarkson talking about anyway? Last time I looked and since I was a GM service Advisor for 7 years, Vettes and almost every other domestic and foreign cars have Mcpherson Strut designed suspensions!

Landon, what are you smoking?    Even the current Vette does not have MacPherson strut suspension, front or rear.   Yes, it has a leaf spring in the rear.

[Rustymuscle]

I would encourage many of you to please read this:
http://www.watercraft.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=278

This is one of my online editorials for Personal Watercraft Illustrated. Currently the motorsports industry is in some pretty dire straits - negotiability worse off than the US automakers because there's no government or cache of uber-wealthy bankers willing to bail them out.

While various politicians greased by the ever-persuasive lobbyist dollar dictates which way the US automakers are to turn, the motorsport industry (UTV, motorcycle, PWC, ATV, etc.) has nobody to rely on but themselves and their customers. Unfortunately, with the US dollar worth about half the value of the paper its printed on, people haven't been interested in buying a new motorcycle or Jet Ski lately.

I made it a very clear point that the single greatest voice an American can have is not with his vote, but with his hard-earned money. The money earned from a day's labor has far more sway in the long term than any administration.

I state and continue to preach that supporting companies, establishments, and businesses with your money is the best way to participate in supporting the American economy. For 130 years, this country stood on a solid political isolationist foundation. This was established by George Washington's second inaugural speech where he decreed that this nation should never be "chained to any foreign treaty that would infringe upon this nation's sovereignty apart from those pertaining to fiscal benefit and trade."

While many might disagree with Nitrox's charge, I feel that reversing the industrial exodus that has been occurring in this country is paramount to saving its economy and way of life. America needs to return to producing its own steel, it's own plastics, lumber, medicine, tooling, and machinery. "World Economies" are destructive and directly infringe upon each individual nation's sovereignty - ability to rule and govern itself. What works for one country may not work for another. Do not think that Japan or England can be as self-reliant as the US. That too, is a lie.

Support America's economy by purchasing American. Support America by being industrious. You are not owed anything. Nobody owes you retirement, free medicine, a house, rent, or groceries. Like Abraham Lincoln stated, "Stand on your own two feet like your Heavenly Father intended you to do."

[Landonsrt]

And by the way, Im surprised your not the average top gear enthusiast that only thinks the good cars are the ones built As they call it "right" overseas. Since they sey we cant build anything. and that our cars, like the vette still ride on leaf springs??? What the F**** is Jeremy Clarkson talking about anyway? Last time I looked and since I was a GM service Advisor for 7 years, Vettes and almost every other domestic and foreign cars have Mcpherson Strut designed suspensions!

Landon, what are you smoking?    Even the current Vette does not have MacPherson strut suspension, front or rear.   Yes, it has a leaf spring in the rear.

How in the hell do you call an independent coil over suspension system a leaf spring suspension??? I just consider a traditiona; leaf as you would see on trucks,older cars like the chargers.

[Landonsrt]

Sorry, Double independent wishbone suspensions. Coil over shocks.

[bull]

Speaking to ALL of America...

If you had bought American, you wouldnt have to bail America out. To Hell with foreigners. Support yourselves for once.

If "American" cars weren't made in Mexico and Canada you'd have a point. I'd almost be willing to bet that more Hondas and Toyotas were made in the US (or at least a higher percentage of each car) during the past 5-10 years than Dodges and Chryslers.

[451-74Charger]

All six generations of the Corvette have used leaf springs in some capacity. The basic arrangement for each generation is listed as follows:

C1 (1953-1962):
Front: Independent unequal-length double wishbones with coil springs
Rear: Rigid axle supported by leaf springs and longitudinal control links [1]
C2 (1963-1967), C3 (1968-1982):
Front: Independent unequal-length double wishbones with coil springs
Rear: Independent suspension with trailing and lateral links supported by a centrally mounted leaf spring[2]
C4 (1984-1996):
Front: Independent unequal-length double wishbones with transverse fiberglass mono-leaf spring mounted to allow for anti-roll effect.
Rear: Independent suspension with trailing and lateral links supported by a centrally mounted fiberglass mono-leaf spring
C5 (1997-2004), C6 (2005-):
Front: Independent unequal-length double wishbones with transverse fiberglass mono-leaf spring mounted to allow for anti-roll effect.
Rear: Independent unequal length double wishbones with transverse fiberglass mono-leaf spring mounted to allow for anti-roll effect.

[TheGhost]

Bummer. No more new "Chargers" eh?

Yes, because it's a good thing that V-8 RWD performance cars are going to disappear.  I just LOVE FWD 4 bangers!  Ahhh, I can hear the annoying buzz of the engines now...

[MoparSam]

Kevin, all I can say is that you sized up the problem perfectly and provided the best solution in your article and post(especially supporting local small businesses), AMEN!!  I agree with Nitrox, America needs to be self reliant and people need to quit holding their hands out for freebee's!

[RAC95054]

Speaking to ALL of America...

If you had bought American, you wouldnt have to bail America out. To Hell with foreigners. Support yourselves for once.

I'm a true red-blooded American, and spend my money in places that give more Americans jobs.  It's not about buying American.  Hell, most companies based in America now farm out much of the work to India, China, Mexico and other cheaper labor places.  The cost of the labor is what has killed us.  If you want to paint some blame, put it on the unions (especially in the car of the car makers).  It's there in black and white in the cost difference to produce a car in Japan vs. the US.  And it's not that Japan is a 2nd or 3rd world country either (I've been there, and people live pretty well, albiet in more cramped space).  The goal of the government is to force GM and Chrysler to do what they needed to do long ago.  Ford will have to make some changes too, to keep up (if they are smart, they are already making plans).  Frankly, I'm all for competition.  If it weren't for the foreign companies making better cars, and showing us what crap the US companies were making, you'd still be getting crap.  Competition is what drives companies to do better, or else they go under.  What our government could do in regards to trade is reciprocate import duties that other countries do to what we import to them.  If Japan charges an extra 20% duty on every car, then we should do the same to theirs.  

The bottom line is, we've been asleep at the wheel for too long in this country, and not enough people educate themselves on the issues, and then either blindly cast their votes based on ads, or don't vote at all.  I'm tired of hearing people bitch about this and that, and when I asked them who/what you voted for, they look at me like what does that have to do with it.  Do your real duty as an American and be an educated voter!!

[1970Moparmann]

Kevin, all I can say is that you sized up the problem perfectly and provided the best solution in your article and post(especially supporting local small businesses), AMEN!!  I agree with Nitrox, America needs to be self reliant and people need to quit holding their hands out for freebee's!

[bull]

Bummer. No more new "Chargers" eh?

Yes, because it's a good thing that V-8 RWD performance cars are going to disappear.  I just LOVE FWD 4 bangers!  Ahhh, I can hear the annoying buzz of the engines now...

Crap is crap, V8 powered or not.

[Kevin68N71]

Speaking to ALL of America...

If you had bought American, you wouldnt have to bail America out. To Hell with foreigners. Support yourselves for once.

I'm a true red-blooded American, and spend my money in places that give more Americans jobs.  It's not about buying American.  Hell, most companies based in America now farm out much of the work to India, China, Mexico and other cheaper labor places.  The cost of the labor is what has killed us.  If you want to paint some blame, put it on the unions (especially in the car of the car makers).  It's there in black and white in the cost difference to produce a car in Japan vs. the US.  And it's not that Japan is a 2nd or 3rd world country either (I've been there, and people live pretty well, albiet in more cramped space).  The goal of the government is to force GM and Chrysler to do what they needed to do long ago.  Ford will have to make some changes too, to keep up (if they are smart, they are already making plans).  Frankly, I'm all for competition.  If it weren't for the foreign companies making better cars, and showing us what crap the US companies were making, you'd still be getting crap.  Competition is what drives companies to do better, or else they go under.  What our government could do in regards to trade is reciprocate import duties that other countries do to what we import to them.  If Japan charges an extra 20% duty on every car, then we should do the same to theirs. 
The bottom line is, we've been asleep at the wheel for too long in this country, and not enough people educate themselves on the issues, and then either blindly cast their votes based on ads, or don't vote at all.  I'm tired of hearing people bitch about this and that, and when I asked them who/what you voted for, they look at me like what does that have to do with it.  Do your real duty as an American and be an educated voter!!

Two points.  You mention "what the government is forcing them to do what they should have done....".  I don't agree.  The government, in Chrysler's instance, allowed 55% ownership of the company to go to UNIONS.  They literally forced a partnership with Fiat.  They are telling GM what kind of cars to make.  This isn't what they "should have done".  It's pink-goggled white unicorn fantasy land of what it takes to fix things.

I hate to say it, but these two companies should have been allowed to go bankrupt; reorganize, and get out of union contracts.  They would have come out leaner, and stronger.  Yes, some suppliers would have been hurt and permanently go out of business.  But I do NOT think it would be worse than what is going on here.  The government has not resolved the price disparity for union work, AND, they continue to lay on layer after layer of CAFE and safety standards. 

Why does anyone think that anything will change?  What is that old saying that you know someone is insane when they keep doing the same thing and don't understand why they get the same outcome?

It is NOT my job as a taxpayer to bail out GM.  Loans at a government guaranteed rate?  You got me on board.  We keep hearing that the taxpayer will see a profit on all this.  Oh yeah?  Would that be like the premium return check I got from my insurance company because I, without choice, got stuck with paying for airbags and third tail lights and black boxes on my car?  You mean like that?

[RAC95054]

The goal of the government is to force GM and Chrysler to do what they needed to do long ago.  


Two points.  You mention "what the government is forcing them to do what they should have done....".  I don't agree.  The government, in Chrysler's instance, allowed 55% ownership of the company to go to UNIONS.  They literally forced a partnership with Fiat.  They are telling GM what kind of cars to make.  This isn't what they "should have done".  It's pink-goggled white unicorn fantasy land of what it takes to fix things.

I hate to say it, but these two companies should have been allowed to go bankrupt; reorganize, and get out of union contracts.  They would have come out leaner, and stronger.  Yes, some suppliers would have been hurt and permanently go out of business.  But I do NOT think it would be worse than what is going on here.  The government has not resolved the price disparity for union work, AND, they continue to lay on layer after layer of CAFE and safety standards. 

Why does anyone think that anything will change?  What is that old saying that you know someone is insane when they keep doing the same thing and don't understand why they get the same outcome?

It is NOT my job as a taxpayer to bail out GM.  Loans at a government guaranteed rate?  You got me on board.  We keep hearing that the taxpayer will see a profit on all this.  Oh yeah?  Would that be like the premium return check I got from my insurance company because I, without choice, got stuck with paying for airbags and third tail lights and black boxes on my car?  You mean like that?

You are correct about the Chrysler deal being a bit more of a fantasy, and pushing too much onto Fiat.  My hope is they know what to do to streamline them (a fresh set of eyes so-to-speak), but my gut feel is "Chrysler" will be far different than we know them not a couple years down the road.  I do, however, feel the government felt they needed to save GM, being more of an icon than Chrysler, and that it's roots went far deeping into many suppliers.  Too much was at stake there (more job losses, then less tax revenue, then more crime, etc etc... who do you think would pay for that in the end??).  I just hope they get it at least mostly right, and they may pull out of it... in no less than 3-5 years, though.  I'm not happy that the people at the top still made plenty of money, and now we have to bail them out.  But I'd be less happy funding handouts for deadbeats that don't want to get another job.

[Landonsrt]

I 100% AGREE. GM and chrysler should have been allowed to declare bankruptcy. Look at Delta. They did it and look at them now. They shed all the extra weight and are doing great. Yeah people lost jobs but they have restructured themselves and can hire people back later. Albeit in smaller numbers.  Gm and chrysler get strangled by union labor. Dont tell me its a fairy tale story for us to believe that they do nothing wrong.
Why is it anytime they dont get something their way, they go on strike? Putting a stranglehold on the companies they are supposed to work for. Costing the companies they work for lots of money with stalled factories, lost auto sales, etc...
Im not in a union. if I did that, my ASS would be out of a job!!!

[Charger_Fan]

The banks shoudn't have been bailed out, either. They should have been allowed to fail...survival of the fittest would have taken over & after some very lean times for most Americans, the system would have emerged from the other side stronger & better.
Instead, we have a quagmire.

[Ghoste]

If it's all the unions fault, why isn't Mercedes failing?  (just as an example)

[Landonsrt]

Im not saying its all the union's fault. bad business deals, failed auto ventures, and mass producing the same car over too many brands certainly didnt help. Why would you need 4 different versions of a Malibu? My point about union labor is your overpaying someone to sit on their ass. Just like your local government employee. I know there are union workers out there that actually do work for their money. IMO its just like the gov. protecting people on wellfare and disability that dont really want to work.

[1970Moparmann]

If it's all the unions fault, why isn't Mercedes failing?  (just as an example)

Mercedes doesn't produce the volume of a GM or Chrysler.  Also, Mercedes is a class tier type of vehicle option.  Government Motors is going to be a joke moving forward, and Chrysler, and the banking institutions and pretty soon health care industry.  There should not have been any government involvement at all.... Let capitalism run how it should. 

[Ghoste]

So unions are only bad in a high volume situation?

[1970Moparmann]

So unions are only bad in a high volume situation?

I for one didn't say that the Unions are the whole problem.  I was just talking to a fellow Mopar person who works at a GM plant in IN and he told me how wasteful GM is.  How screwed up GM was....... Pertaining to unions though, what he did say is a major problem is the amount of money that goes out from GM for pension funds and medical costs-this needs to be addressed.  GM should have filed by itself without any Government involvement, and came out years down the road a better company.  This would have also helped in Union negotiations.   

As for the Mercedes issues, it's my opinion that Mercedes isn't in the market to produce a middle class or under middle class vehicle.  The big three are targeting all markets, and thus need to be very competitive in quality and price.  Mercedes on the other hand, I'm sure, make a hell of a lot more money on a vehicle, thus minimizing the extra spending exposure...

[Sublime69]

If it's all the unions fault, why isn't Mercedes failing?  (just as an example)

Because it isn't all the unions fault.

The fault is directly related to corporate decision. Top management are the ones that agree to what many percieve as "ridiculous" union contracts. But, are they really any more ridiculous than the senators and congress we elect that recieves FULL pension and benefits after only 4 years of "service" VS 25 or 30 years of a union workers service?

The same corporate decisions that have put 1000's of non-union jobs out on the street while the average CEO's salary has increased over 400% since 1980.

Unions are a very good thing IF the company has strong management. Unions don't control the company, the company controls the company. If they allow unions to walk all over them, then so be it if they fail, which I don't think is the reason in this case of GM and Chrysler. Bad management is dwindling these two iconic companies into the ground. Some of the union philosophy does'nt help the matter but they aren't the forcing hand behind what's crumbling GM and Chrysler.

[Ghoste]

That's pretty much my opinion as well.  Contrary to what many of my posts would indicate, I'm not exactly what you would call a union supporter.  But I do believe in placing blame where it belongs and in a lot of what is happening in the American auto industry blaming it on one party or the other is just waaaaaaaaay too simplistic and foolishly naive.
My honest feeling is that it is an incredibly complex situation that everyone from President Obama down to welfare recipients without the ability to buy a car are underestimating.  We are playing this economic question like a bunch of armchair quarterbacks and barstool umpires.  Everyone has a small part of the overall answer and I only hope it comes together quickly. 

[Sublime69]

Exactly, I'm not a full fledged union supporter either. Unions have pushed jobs overseas, so has corporate greed.

The way I see it, the corporate greed always comes out more rewarded financially than a guy protesting to keep his 50K a year job assembling cars.

I've had  to visit plants where strikes were going on, I didn't like it and most of the time I didn't understand why they were striking, I mean, come one you still have your job. What I hear over and over though is "unions are killing the big 3". I just don't believe that. There's just too much "management" getting in the way of these companies not to mention the government sticking their nose into their business BEFORE they even took any bailout money.

All I know is I'm glad Chrysler has reverted to offering rear wheel drive, V8 cars and I hope they continue to do so while satisfying the "green" psycho's out there (because I do like having the option between a eco-box or a muscle car). Just make some money for youselves and quit being so damn greedy, all of you (Chrysler and GM, not you guys).

[TheGhost]

The unions were just one nail in a heavily nailed coffin.