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hard pedal

Started by dont vote, June 13, 2009, 08:26:25 PM

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hard brake pedal

hard pedal
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Total Members Voted: 6

dont vote

   i have a 69 w/all drums, i recently rebuilt the engine with a 501 lift cam. i've read that this cam robs the engine of vacuum, i have installed a new vacuum booster and also a vacuum can from summit in addition to the factory one under the battery tray, the only results i got was the headlights opened just slightly faster. the pedal is still hard and will not stop the car, any suggestions and help would be greatly appreciated.


A383Wing

Either you don't have vacuum to the booster, or the booster is bad

mikepmcs

Also, could the rod be out of adjustment or not adjusted correctly.  I remember Chris G(6t9)saying something about this I think.
Life isn't Father Knows Best anymore, it's a kick in the face on a saturday night with a steel toed grip kodiak work boot and a trip to the hospital all bloodied and bashed.....for reconstructive surgery. But, what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger, right?

Ghoste

Glazed drums or shoes?

mikepmcs

Ghoste...I believe he is talking about the pedal actually being hard as a rock when you push down on it, like no travel and pushing a brick wall.  I've experienced what he is talking about and it isn't like glazed drums or shoes IMHO.
Life isn't Father Knows Best anymore, it's a kick in the face on a saturday night with a steel toed grip kodiak work boot and a trip to the hospital all bloodied and bashed.....for reconstructive surgery. But, what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger, right?

Ghoste

Oh I see.  I was reading it as no matter how hard he pushes it's like well, you know :lol:.
My bad.

mikepmcs

He might mean that too.  We'll have to await the response I guess. :icon_smile_big: :cheers:
Life isn't Father Knows Best anymore, it's a kick in the face on a saturday night with a steel toed grip kodiak work boot and a trip to the hospital all bloodied and bashed.....for reconstructive surgery. But, what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger, right?

dont vote

yes exactly, no travel and pushing a brick wall. how did you fix the problem? like i said before, new brake booster and vacuum can,
still the same. it was good before the rebuild, i seem to need more vacuum

A383Wing

With engine running, do you have vacuum to the booster? You will have to remove the check valve from the booster to check...

dont vote

i didn't check for vac to the booster, i will check that tomorrow. i just assumed i had some as everything was new. i'll get back to you on that

dont vote

And assuming i have no vac to the booster, how can i get some?

A383Wing

From the nipple on the intake manifold.

dont vote

 well, right now the hose goes from the nipple, to the new can, and from the can to the brake booster

A383Wing

Quote from: dont vote on June 14, 2009, 10:51:06 PM
well, right now the hose goes from the nipple, to the new can, and from the can to the brake booster

Wonder if you got the hoses reversed on the new can...that might have a check valve in it...again, see if you have vacuum at the booster with engine running...then we go from there

dont vote

i have vaccum everywhere but the brake pedal is still hard how much do i need?

oldcarnut

Quote from: mikepmcs on June 13, 2009, 11:07:07 PM
Also, could the rod be out of adjustment or not adjusted correctly.  I remember Chris G(6t9)saying something about this I think.
Did you check the rod position from the booster to the master cyl?  Could the under dash linkages be binding? One more thing a little off the wall but have you had to add much or refill the master cyl.?  What happened to me with similar hard pedal but on an old booster was that the seals were bad causing the booster to fill with brake fluid.   
Check this link out http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,54379.0.html

dont vote

the rod seems to be at the correct length
there is no fluid loss and also no binding in the linkage the pedal does have a little freeplay.
the pedal has about 1 and 1 half inch travel, very firm all the way and needs two feet to actually stop the car from rolling at idle, also the pedal feels the same whether the car is running or not.  my brother uses this cam in his 350 chevy w/o a vac can and has 5 times the vacuum at the booster than i have

dont vote

HELP i still have the problem

mikepmcs

Bad booster?
edit, just read your first post about new booster.
Life isn't Father Knows Best anymore, it's a kick in the face on a saturday night with a steel toed grip kodiak work boot and a trip to the hospital all bloodied and bashed.....for reconstructive surgery. But, what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger, right?

mikepmcs

Quote from: dont vote on June 14, 2009, 10:30:01 PM
i didn't check for vac to the booster, i will check that tomorrow. i just assumed i had some as everything was new. i'll get back to you on that

this part/test was completed? 
Life isn't Father Knows Best anymore, it's a kick in the face on a saturday night with a steel toed grip kodiak work boot and a trip to the hospital all bloodied and bashed.....for reconstructive surgery. But, what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger, right?

dont vote

yes, how do i test the new booster.manifold vac is at approx at 5 inches/hg at idle and at 4000 rpm climbs to 20.
i could hook the kirby up to the booster

maxwellwedge

Did you bench bleed the master? An improperly bled master can cause a hard pedal.

mikepmcs

Quote from: maxwellwedge on June 21, 2009, 08:29:20 PM
Did you bench bleed the master? An improperly bled master can cause a hard pedal.

Shoot, beat me to it. :lol:

Amazing what that will cause if not bled properly.  You wouldn't think so but....
Life isn't Father Knows Best anymore, it's a kick in the face on a saturday night with a steel toed grip kodiak work boot and a trip to the hospital all bloodied and bashed.....for reconstructive surgery. But, what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger, right?

A383Wing

If master was not bench bled, it would give him a "soft" pedal...sounds to me like it's a "lack of enough vacuum" issue at the booster...he says he has only 5" of vacuum at idle....engine will barely run with 5" of vacuum at idle...I'm thinking he has a check valve, bad hose, restricted hose or a bad vacuum can that he added.

He needs to measure vacuum at every connection he has to find the problem. Start at the intake port and then test every connection next in line...bleeding the master cylinder will not cure the issue

maxwellwedge

Un-bled lines will give a soft pedal. An improperly bled Power Brake master can give a hard pedal - the same feeling of trying to stop a power brake car with the engine off. It sounds like he has enough vacuum to pull a golf ball through a garden hose.  ;D

A383Wing

Quote from: maxwellwedge on June 21, 2009, 09:16:22 PM
Un-bled lines will give a soft pedal. An improperly bled Power Brake master can give a hard pedal - the same feeling of trying to stop a power brake car with the engine off. It sounds like he has enough vacuum to pull a golf ball through a garden hose.  ;D

I disagree....he states he has 5" at idle..you call that enough? I don't

I also disagree with you about the master bleed also...if there is air in the master, it will give you a soft pedal...not a hard pedal

dont vote

it's 5 @ the manifold nipple

dont vote

did i mention it's a 318 punched to a 323?

A383Wing

Quote from: dont vote on June 21, 2009, 10:33:51 PM
it's 5 @ the manifold nipple

Well, there's yer first problem...not enough vacuum to operate booster. Got a big cam? How does the engine run? Where do you have the booster hose attached to? Got a picture? You say it idles...what is idle RPM?

We need a little better info in order to help ya...pictures would be a plus also

dont vote

there should be enough info in the threads, it idles at 1100 and it runs really good
the hose runs from the nipple in the manifold to the check valve on the new can then from the can to the booster.
i may have to use an electric vacuum pump, if i know it will help, i just dont know if it will

oldcarnut

Run a vacuum direct from the nipple to the booster and see what happens.  I know mine doesn't use a can but this is how it is on my 70 RR stock 383.  If it works for the brakes then maybe you may have a vacuum problem somewhere else in the system you can look at.  :shruggy:

CornDogsCharger

Very interesting topic.  I've run into the same problem with the 'Bird that I am restoring.  The only problem is... I am reading 12psi at the booster.  Original booster was "fixed" three times and still no luck.  We replaced with with a Wagner remanufactured Bendix unit and still no luck.  Petal is hard as a rock.  We crimped off every hose except the booster, no luck.  Check valve is good... booster holds good vacuum when the check valve is removed.  We even put 25psi vacuum on the booster and had no luck.  Please help.  The car is a '70 Superbird 440 6 pack stock rebuild with a a little over mild cam.  Like I said, when we put direct vacuum on the booster, seem like it should have works..... if it was a lack of vacuum problem.

Justin
"CornDog"
1966 Dodge Charger
1969 Dodge Charger (DMCL Project)
1969 Dodge Charger (WB General Lee "GL#004")
1969 Dodge Super Bee

maxwellwedge

Have a look at my earlier suggestion that nobody believes.

CornDogsCharger

What is different about bench bleeding a power assist master cylinder oppose to bleeding a non-power assist master cylinder.  I'm willing to try anything.

Justin
"CornDog"
1966 Dodge Charger
1969 Dodge Charger (DMCL Project)
1969 Dodge Charger (WB General Lee "GL#004")
1969 Dodge Super Bee

mikepmcs

IMHO there should be no difference as far as bench bleeding the master cylinder goes.  same process in other words.  you could take the m/c off the booster and run 2 lines from the outlets back into the res and pump it to get all the air out or you can unhook the car lines, run 2 lines from the outlet to the res and pump the crap out of the booster to push the plunger to get the air out.
Life isn't Father Knows Best anymore, it's a kick in the face on a saturday night with a steel toed grip kodiak work boot and a trip to the hospital all bloodied and bashed.....for reconstructive surgery. But, what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger, right?

mikepmcs

Life isn't Father Knows Best anymore, it's a kick in the face on a saturday night with a steel toed grip kodiak work boot and a trip to the hospital all bloodied and bashed.....for reconstructive surgery. But, what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger, right?

maxwellwedge

Quote from: maxwellwedge on June 25, 2009, 08:15:25 PM
Have a look at my earlier suggestion that nobody believes.

Nobody except mikepmcs   :icon_smile_big:

mikepmcs

Life isn't Father Knows Best anymore, it's a kick in the face on a saturday night with a steel toed grip kodiak work boot and a trip to the hospital all bloodied and bashed.....for reconstructive surgery. But, what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger, right?

CornDogsCharger

Ok, guess I read it wrong.  Maxwell, I was thinking that your post was saying that it was different opperation.  Proof positive that I have been working too much lately.  I didn't think it could have been much different.  I'm pretty sure everything was bled out like it is supposed to be but hey, I'll give it a shot. 

Justin
"CornDog"
1966 Dodge Charger
1969 Dodge Charger (DMCL Project)
1969 Dodge Charger (WB General Lee "GL#004")
1969 Dodge Super Bee

bearbqd

Glad this topic came up as I have the same problem with my Charger. I figured I had a bad booster as I have vacuum at idle at the booster. I just stuck my finger to it and didn't actually measure it. I have a pretty lopey cam so there probably isn't as much there as I think. How much vacuum should I have there if I measure it?
73 Cuda 440/500hp
71 Javelin in progress

CornDogsCharger

Quote from: bearbqd on June 25, 2009, 09:41:27 PM
Glad this topic came up as I have the same problem with my Charger. I figured I had a bad booster as I have vacuum at idle at the booster. I just stuck my finger to it and didn't actually measure it. I have a pretty lopey cam so there probably isn't as much there as I think. How much vacuum should I have there if I measure it?

When we were testing ours, we were pulling 12psi which to my understanding, should be enough to opperate the brakes properly.

Justin
"CornDog"
1966 Dodge Charger
1969 Dodge Charger (DMCL Project)
1969 Dodge Charger (WB General Lee "GL#004")
1969 Dodge Super Bee

TylerCharger69

I was reading the posts and thought to myself..."Isn't the can underneath the battery tray's purpose is to store vacuum for the headlight doors to operate when the engine is off???"  I hooked up the vacuum direct to the manifold and tossed the can seeing as how the diaphragm was dry rotted.  I just need to make sure I shut my lights down BEFORE shutting down the engine...lol  Actually...I had this problem too and it turned out to be my proportioning block. It had some sort of restriction in it. Got a new one and solved the issue.  Just my  :Twocents:

OneFine69

   Hey dont vote, i'm kinda new 2 the forum, but ur prob aint. i've been readin ur post, tryin 2 figgur out a way 2 help ya. yeah 5inches of vacuum @ idle is no way near enuf vacuum 4 the brakes 2 work, u need about 15-18 in/hg. tyler had a good point about the prop valve, if its blocked, the fluid can't move,causing a hard pedal. did u check that? if it's a stocker, then maybe somethin may have gotten in there & blocked up the system. i'm no brake xpert by any stretch, thats just my 2 pennies. get back 2 us & let us know if u have any luck!
''Kids in the back seat can cause accidents, Accidents in the back seat can cause kids''

y3chargerrt


mikepmcs

too much text messaging on the cell phone will cause that condition. :lol:

Welcome aboard OneFine69. :wave:
Life isn't Father Knows Best anymore, it's a kick in the face on a saturday night with a steel toed grip kodiak work boot and a trip to the hospital all bloodied and bashed.....for reconstructive surgery. But, what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger, right?

OneFine69

   Thank You, Mike, & yeah i do alot of phone txtin, how could u tell? is it really that obvious? its just a little easier on the thumbs, less blisters ya know lol
''Kids in the back seat can cause accidents, Accidents in the back seat can cause kids''

y3chargerrt

Welcome aboard and just teasing with the spell check comment. My daughters 19 so I know all about U wuz iz.....

TylerCharger69


yeah...it just seems that there is a blockage somewhere to me.  Have somebody in the car pressing the pedal.  Start from the rear and work your way forward. Loosen each bleeder one at a time and see when the pedal finally gives.  If it doesn't give, then the trouble is obviously somewhere between the prop. valve and the master cylinder, which the piston in the master cylinder could be frozen up.  Rod adjustment may be off as well meaning it's adjusted too far out and when it's assembled, the piston may already be engaged.  Also  if that spacer at the m/c is missing (cast piece I believe) that will cause grief as well.  Let us know!!!    Ace

dont vote

ok i will try each wheel , i dont think its a prop valve on the 318's but i did change it when the motor was out, i got it from a 440 charger, maybe i'll put the old one back in as i had really shitty brakes before the rebuild (locking-up @ rear,that may have been the leaky axle seal) So i will bleed each corner and i'll get back to you
  thanks

oldcarnut

Quote from: dont vote on June 29, 2009, 11:42:55 AM
ok i will try each wheel , i had really shitty brakes before the rebuild (locking-up @ rear,So i will bleed each corner and i'll get back to you

Did you ever change the rubber flex lines when you changed the other parts?  I've had one burst on me on the front and another time the hose was collapsing or deteriorating to the point on the inside that it acted as a check valve allowing fluid one way but not the other on the rear.  They're cheap (about $8 or so) and often neglected since often they look ok on the outside.  Just something to look at while your under there.

TylerCharger69

Quote from: oldcarnut on June 29, 2009, 01:54:07 PM
Quote from: dont vote on June 29, 2009, 11:42:55 AM
ok i will try each wheel , i had really shitty brakes before the rebuild (locking-up @ rear,So i will bleed each corner and i'll get back to you

Did you ever change the rubber flex lines when you changed the other parts?  I've had one burst on me on the front and another time the hose was collapsing or deteriorating to the point on the inside that it acted as a check valve allowing fluid one way but not the other on the rear.  They're cheap (about $8 or so) and often neglected since often they look ok on the outside.  Just something to look at while your under there.

That's something else to consider too.....I'm curious to find out what it is!!!

TylerCharger69

My curiosity is setting in....any luck???

oldcarnut

 Inquiring minds want to know.  Did you find a culprit yet?

A383Wing


dont vote

well,the car has been in the bodyshop for a while now. after i changed the prop valve i bled each corner with no problems, it pissed right out. i'm still thinking i should go electric vacuum pump. when i get it back i'll hook up one of my other cars to the booster and see if that works, sorry i kept you hanging.
   

tommymac

Simi plugged intake manifold. My bros 318 had the same problem,You need 18-21" of vac to work

A383Wing

Quote from: tommymac on July 24, 2009, 05:23:25 PM
Simi plugged intake manifold. My bros 318 had the same problem,You need 18-21" of vac to work

Which has been my point ever since the second post in this thread...he says he only has about 5"...we have yet to hear what the "exact" issue is (was)

dont vote

when i get it back i'll grab a can of carb cleaner and check for leaks around the intake and recheck my torques