10% Ethanol blend and performance loss?

[RECHRGD]

All the gas around here now is a 10% ethanol blend.  People are really beginning to complain about their mileage going down because of the reduced power output.  Any ideas on how much, if any, the performance of our hot rods is affected by this stuff?  Bob

[Ghoste]

Just look through all the threads about hard starting that are attributable to modern fuel blends and you'll quickly realize that there is most definitely a performance loss with this swill.  Just how much I don't know.  It seems like the kind of question chad McGee would have the answer to.

[firefighter3931]

  The current gas formulations are poor. Modern fuels are designed for EFI that run @ 60psi....not 6-8 PSI that our carburated hot rods use. The 10% mix also reduces the units of energy that the fuel will produce which reduces power output and milage.



Ron

[RECHRGD]

So, without going to race gas, how does one put some power back in the tank?  I've never had much faith in off the shelf "octane boosters" but maybe that's the only option.  Bob

[resq302]

The current gas formulations are poor. Modern fuels are designed for EFI that run @ 60psi....not 6-8 PSI that our carburated hot rods use. The 10% mix also reduces the units of energy that the fuel will produce which reduces power output and milage.



Ron

Ah yes, the Fed Govm't stepping in to produce a cleaner greener environment but they fail to see that they are penny wise and pound foolish since it is using more gas to make up for the loss of mileage and energy that the "old" gasoline produced.

[Ghoste]

I'm sure some of them know but none of them care because the important thing is that they get lots of Sierra Club votes by enacting that kind of short sighted stupidity.

[nh_mopar_fan]

Ethanol is a real PITA for boat owners. Had to stock up on filters and additive for the summer.

[RECHRGD]

Ethanol is a real PITA for boat owners. Had to stock up on filters and additive for the summer.

What kind of additive are you using?

[nh_mopar_fan]

I'm using startron and hoping that the marina where I gas up (still working off a half a tank of ethanol-free from last season) adds it right to their tanks.

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/

All the marinas up here have ethanol this year.

It sucks

[LeadfootBob]

Octane IS the issue, as ethanol has a higher octane rating than current pump gas and less energy value per unit = harder to burn and less power when it is finally combusted properly.
Plenty of people got caught in the "save money by running booze"-wave that started here when the stuff was introduced nationwide here (Sweden). Soon many of the guys converting their cars discovered that A: you lose pretty much all the economy of a cheaper fuel since the mixture has to be fattened by at least 15% compared to gas and B: the car runs like a bag of hammers in sub-zero temperatures before reaching operating temp. The only guys who still seem to be happy is the turbo crowd, cheap race fuel right off the pump :-)
It seems to be the only reasonable use for ethanol (except winning votes), either bump up compression a lot or run something that stuffs more air into the engine.

[flyinlow]

Gasoline - 116,000 btu per gal.
ethanol-76,000 btu per gal.

If your fuel is 10% ethanol  , the 10% will make about 2/3 of the heat that the gasoline would have.

3-4 % less power and milage.

Plus ethanol needs high CR"s to burn well.,harder to start,hard on fuel system components.

Makes good dry gas though ,in the winter.

[mikepmcs]

So, without going to race gas, how does one put some power back in the tank?  I've never had much faith in off the shelf "octane boosters" but maybe that's the only option.  Bob

TOLUENE @$18 a gallon.  One gallon will treat your whole tank.
It's 114 octane and open wheel cars used to run 84% toluene and 16% inert chemical in their cars.

Off the shelf octane boosters will only raise your gas a couple points meaning it's going from 92 from the pump to like 92.1-92.2.  They are a waste of money. 
An example of what toluene would do as follows

Lets say you have a 15 gallon tank and added 1 gallon of toluene to 14 gallons of premium.
(gallons added x octane rating) + (gallon of toluene x octane rating of toluene) / number of total gallons = new octane rating
(14x92)+(1x114)/15= 93.46

Figure from there.

v/r
Mike

[RECHRGD]

Thanks for the replies guys!  So if the 91 or 92 octane that I normally buy now states that it has 10% ethanol, is it really at the rated octane or something less.  My engine only has 9.4CR but I've always run premium in it because I used to have detonation problems with the old iron heads.  With the new aluminum heads I can run more timing with no problems.  Maybe I don't even need to run premium anymore.  So if I understand the power issue correctly then----A 92 octane fuel that has a ethanol mix will produce less power than a 92 octane fuel that is straight gas.  Correct?    Bob

[Ghoste]

FWIW, there is an ethanol plant here in my hometown and they have a pretty good lobby group on their own even without the greenies.  They are pretty consistent about keeping the message in the local media about how great they are for providing jobs at the refinery and for farmers and that it's a "renewable" fuel source. 

[flyinlow]

I like to root for the underdog, however...

I don't think a million or so gearheads that are talented enough to keep 40 year old cars running are going to win out over the politicians, Hollywood, EPA and big business and get the oil company's to reformulate gasoline back to the old style. 
,
So learn from the dinosaurs mistake, adapt.

Carb insulators,rejet,retune ,maybe fuel injection.

[GPULLER]

10% Ethanol has been here in Minnesota for years now, most is 88-89 octane.  Haven't had any problems with rubber fuel lines or filters when running it in my Charger or antique tractors.  I haven't seen any decrease in power when I've had my tractor on the dyno, but then its a relatively low compression slow running engine.  413ci 2 cylinder running 875RPM that makes 60hp.

[Kevin68N71]

I don't agree about octane boosters being a waste of money--at all!

I have the last of the high compression Corvette 350s (1970) and the car knocks with Super Unleaded.  I pour in a bottle of octane booster (I have used various name brands but usually stick with the well known ones) and the car NEVER knocks.  When I forget to add it, it again knocks so it IS the booster.

Alot of people knock these boosters and lead substitutes.  Now I don't know about ethanol fuels, but out here in Calif I have run my Super Bee, my Corvette and my AMX going on 15 years on these mixes with zero problems and no knocking.