580" dyno date /RESULTS

[oldschool]

i will be dynoing my 580" motor for my 70 charger on june 8. i had some set backs. one was my crank flange where the flywheel bolts to,was not true. the first shop bent it.i had ALOT of problems with that shop.it was off .015".
the reason for the rebuild in the first place,was the vibration. when i had my shop ballance the rotating assembly,they said bring in the flywheel so we can check it.sure enough when it was bolted to the crank,and spun ,you could see the wobble. this is a bryant crank,so i was shocked it was off.then he saw where it had been dropped  . it only bent the flange,everything else checked ok.i had the shop cut it true on a lathe,now it is perfect.
i also thought i had a problem with the head flow.turned out it was just the shop did not put the bolt that holds the jessel bar in. without that bolt,it leaves a big hole in the roof of the port  . i cant belive i missed that one too.... thank you dwayne porter. that mistake set me back 2 weeks. the heads still dont flow what indy says they will.they flowed 388cfm @.800,indy says they should flow400@.800  
it should still make alot of steam thou.im guessing between 850 and 900  ,we'll know on june 8. i will post some pics of the build and dyno results soon

[tan top]

damn , sounds like a heck of a motor you have got going on there    looking forward to seeing pictures &  dyno report 

[Mefirst]

About the head flow.. I dont think you will notice any difference between the heads flowing 388cmf or 400cmf. That engine will still make some serious power... I also think companys like Indy, etc.. will write in their adds a higher rounded up flow number than the head actually makes, its just marketing strategy BS...

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Looking forward to the dyno results OS 

The high ratio rockers should pay dividends and allow those heads to reach their potential. Geez, i can't believe some Bozo shop would drop a Bryant crank of all things !    Why couldn't it be a SB chevy crank or something equally worthless  Good news that it's all fixed and ready to roll 

What brand of Dyno...DTS, Superflow, Stutska ?


Ron

[oldschool]

Looking forward to the dyno results OS 

The high ratio rockers should pay dividends and allow those heads to reach their potential. Geez, i can't believe some Bozo shop would drop a Bryant crank of all things !    Why couldn't it be a SB chevy crank or something equally worthless  Good news that it's all fixed and ready to roll 

What brand of Dyno...DTS, Superflow, Stutska ?


Ron

hey ron, i'm going to use a superflow.i could use the stuska now,but i'm waiting for the superflow.yeah,it was a chevy shop that droped it.they messed alot of stuff up. like:
miscalculate comp. height for pistons,to low in bore
miscalculate valve notches.wrong place and angle.
cut deck about .200" to o deck piston,but not square front to back or side to side. off about .010"
did not cut intake side of head,instead cut the manifold.now i have to butcher every intake manifold to make it fit.
they broke off a bolt in my new mega block
theirs more,but i need to stop because i'm getting mad again. i'll never let a shop touch my mopar motor again,unless they know mopars.i'm alot wiser now too,that was 15 years ago.
yes you are right about the 1.7,s with .800" valve lift,that is some serious tilt on the arms! i'll have to keep an eye on the roller lifters,thats got to be hard on them.
on a side note ron,can i have the 337 manifold you have at dwayne,s shop? just kidding,but i've been waiting 2 months for 3 that i orderd from mancini.i want to try one on one of the 500" motors,i bet it will work good.

[firefighter3931]

Looking forward to the dyno results OS 

The high ratio rockers should pay dividends and allow those heads to reach their potential. Geez, i can't believe some Bozo shop would drop a Bryant crank of all things !    Why couldn't it be a SB chevy crank or something equally worthless  Good news that it's all fixed and ready to roll 

What brand of Dyno...DTS, Superflow, Stutska ?


Ron

hey ron, i'm going to use a superflow.i could use the stuska now,but i'm waiting for the superflow.yeah,it was a chevy shop that droped it.they messed alot of stuff up. like:
miscalculate comp. height for pistons,to low in bore
miscalculate valve notches.wrong place and angle.
cut deck about .200" to o deck piston,but not square front to back or side to side. off about .010"
did not cut intake side of head,instead cut the manifold.now i have to butcher every intake manifold to make it fit.
they broke off a bolt in my new mega block
theirs more,but i need to stop because i'm getting mad again. i'll never let a shop touch my mopar motor again,unless they know mopars.i'm alot wiser now too,that was 15 years ago.
yes you are right about the 1.7,s with .800" valve lift,that is some serious tilt on the arms! i'll have to keep an eye on the roller lifters,thats got to be hard on them.
on a side note ron,can i have the 337 manifold you have at dwayne,s shop? just kidding,but i've been waiting 2 months for 3 that i orderd from mancini.i want to try one on one of the 500" motors,i bet it will work good.

Good Lord....that sure seems like a lot of screw ups ! There must be a descent Mopar shop in your area, no ?

Have you looked at the Isky Roller lifters with the solid bushing that replaces the needle bearings ? I ordered a set of those for mine and they are pricy $$ but are supposed to be bulletproof and tolerate lots of spring pressure. 

Ya that 337 manifold is a hot commodity.  If you're interested in borrowing it for testing that would be OK....just pay for shipping both ways and it's yours to play with. I'll need it back though.... in the fall 




Ron

[oldschool]

yes,i have an awesome machine shop now. they have been doing all of my work for about 15 years now.they have done about ten or so stroker shortblocks for me,with not one problem.
thats the first i've heard about the bushed lifters.i will check that out. do you know if they have offset lifters like the comps?
ron,thats awesome of you to offer up your manifold,thanks. i was kidding thou.it would suck to have that thing work real good,then unbolt it and give it back,when you know you might never get another one.
one thing about the old shop cutting my deck almost 1/4" was with the 7.100 rod it made a really light piston.the pin is at the top of the oil ring.i think it's weight was 505 gm. the total bobweight was 2225 gm.between the old set up and new i think i lost about 160 gm per piston and pin. it should rev good and go easy on some parts

[firefighter3931]

yes,i have an awesome machine shop now. they have been doing all of my work for about 15 years now.they have done about ten or so stroker shortblocks for me,with not one problem.
thats the first i've heard about the bushed lifters.i will check that out. do you know if they have offset lifters like the comps?
ron,thats awesome of you to offer up your manifold,thanks. i was kidding thou.it would suck to have that thing work real good,then unbolt it and give it back,when you know you might never get another one.
one thing about the old shop cutting my deck almost 1/4" was with the 7.100 rod it made a really light piston.the pin is at the top of the oil ring.i think it's weight was 505 gm. the total bobweight was 2225 gm.between the old set up and new i think i lost about 160 gm per piston and pin. it should rev good and go easy on some parts

OS,

I still can't get over some shop chopping a 1/4 in off the deck of some high dollar aftermarket block....simply unbelievable !   

I was wondering why your bobweight came in so light when you posted it on Moparts...now it makes sense. The pistons are .200 shorter than they should be.  At any rate this is going to spin up like a smallblock with that light of a rotating mass....should be into the rev limiter in a microsecond 

The lifters are the Isky red zones with the EZ-Roll option in case you were wondering about them. I like the fact that the needle bearings are replaced with a solid bushing so if there is an axle failure your engine doesn't get littered with debris. One guy that i'm aware of has had good success so far....he freshened up his 572 Hemi longblock at 3k and re-installed the EZ Roll lifters. Standard needle bearing lifters would have needed a re-build most likely.

Hopefully MP starts to reproduce the 337 manifold so your order can get filled. Like i said earlier the plan is to dyno test it on my 572 with a 4150 and 4500 carbs to see where it stacks up. We'll also be testing a 440-3 for some comparative data at that time so the truth will be known at some point later this year. 

Looking forward to June 8th 



Ron


Ps. I was thinking you might want to chassis dyno one of your 500in powered beasts and do a manifold swap while it's strapped down. Takes all of 5-10 minutes to change manifolds on a BB mopar. At least then you'd know if it was worthwhile persuing the elusive 337 or just sticking with the ICH dual plane. 

[oldschool]

yeah so much for the extra deck thickness that the megablock had  when you cut the manifold to fit it leaves the mounting flange thin also. it just sucks. bad thing is the shop owner is a good friend.he was going to do the work ,then he had to have surgery.so he had his chevy guys do the work. he does not even know about the problems,the friendship is worth more than the money.i just dont use him anymore.
i'm going to test 3 manifolds. indy dualplane,440-2 w/2" spacer up to a 4500 and a 440-3. alot of people say the 440-2 w/spacer should make the most power. i guess we will see that too.
i will keep your offer on the 337 in mind.maybee when i'm done with this big boy.

[firefighter3931]

Ya, it's too bad the deckheight is messed up because i would have really liked to see my 337 on your 580 build. 

I'll be interested to see the 440-2 vs the 440-3 comparison. On a 500in build i can see the 440-2 with the adapter working better than the 440-3 but on a 580 the 440-3 should be the clear winner....especially on a beast like yours with the 572-13 heads and close to .800 lift at the valve. I'll go on record and predict the 440-3 will be the best piece by at least 20hp. 


The offer still stands on the 337....just say the word and it's yours to play with 



Ron

[Challenger340]

i will be dynoing my 580" motor for my 70 charger on june 8. i had some set backs. one was my crank flange where the flywheel bolts to,was not true. the first shop bent it.i had ALOT of problems with that shop.it was off .015".
the reason for the rebuild in the first place,was the vibration. when i had my shop ballance the rotating assembly,they said bring in the flywheel so we can check it.sure enough when it was bolted to the crank,and spun ,you could see the wobble. this is a bryant crank,so i was shocked it was off.then he saw where it had been dropped  . it only bent the flange,everything else checked ok.i had the shop cut it true on a lathe,now it is perfect.
i also thought i had a problem with the head flow.turned out it was just the shop did not put the bolt that holds the jessel bar in. without that bolt,it leaves a big hole in the roof of the port  . i cant belive i missed that one too.... thank you dwayne porter. that mistake set me back 2 weeks. the heads still dont flow what indy says they will.they flowed 388cfm @.800,indy says they should flow400@.800 
it should still make alot of steam thou.im guessing between 850 and 900  ,we'll know on june 8. i will post some pics of the build and dyno results soon

What Heads did you go with OS ? The 572-13 ?

How the heck did you end up needing 1/4 " off the Decks ?

[oldschool]

yes it has 572-13 cnc 365. the old shop miscaluated the comp. height when they orderd pistons. rather than tell me and order new pistons,they just butcherd my block.hell,i would have paid for the second set of pistons too! it would have been cheaper in the long run.

[Challenger340]

yes it has 572-13 cnc 365. the old shop miscaluated the comp. height when they orderd pistons. rather than tell me and order new pistons,they just butcherd my block.hell,i would have paid for the second set of pistons too! it would have been cheaper in the long run.

YIKES !
That sucks !

So they Decked the Block that far ? 
Dem Boyz is Hardcore !

Whats yer quench at now, assuming around the 4.500 Bore ?

[oldschool]

yes it has 572-13 cnc 365. the old shop miscaluated the comp. height when they orderd pistons. rather than tell me and order new pistons,they just butcherd my block.hell,i would have paid for the second set of pistons too! it would have been cheaper in the long run.

YIKES !
That sucks !

So they Decked the Block that far ? 
Dem Boyz is Hardcore !

Whats yer quench at now, assuming around the 4.500 Bore ?

i'm at zero deck,the 1039 gasket is .051". the compression ratio worked out to 14.16. and yes dem boys cut that much off the deck.

[Challenger340]

14:1 ,  WOW !

Lotta Squeeze !

You goin Methanol ?

[Mefirst]

 

14:1 comp. Perfekt to run it on E85

/Tom

[oldschool]

14:1 ,  WOW !

Lotta Squeeze !

You goin Methanol ?

no, just gasoline.maybe vp c12 or sunoco. i will dyno both and see what it likes.

[oldschool]

14:1 comp. Perfekt to run it on E85

/Tom

i cant get that stuff around here,or else i would try it.

[Steve P.]

I've been missing allllllot around here lately as I had back surgery and can't sit up for very long. The other night I was BSing with Firefighter-Ron on the phone and he was telling me your tale... I nearly shit when he told me they hacked .200 off the top of your block....    I understand the owner was your buddy, but before he returned to the shop I think I would have taken a couple hundred thousands off someones azz.... did they think you just wouldn't ever notice???

This would be another reason I DON'T own a gun.......


Can't wait to see your dyno results.... 

[oldschool]

hey guys,ran into a small problem with my new jessel rockers.the roller tip did not center up on the valve tip.we were able to move the spacers around and get the intakes perfect.but we could not get the exhaust to line up right.some were ok and some had the roller hang off and not touch 1/3 of the valve tip. i called indy,(thats where i got them) and talked to kenny about them.he said they would be ok. it just didnt look right to me.
so i sent a few pictures to jessel.they got right back to me.they said they messed up and to send them back.this time they said they would get a set of 572-13 heads and mock them up,to make sure they are perfect.they will press in new bearings to center them up.
i tried to use my old 1.55 stands,which fit perfect,not even close.they moved the valves on the newer heads.the new shafts to the old stands were off about 1/4".i should have them this week and dyno next week.i just didnt want to run the motor unless it was right.with the spring presures im running,it needs to be right.should be posting some #,s next week.

[Steve P.]

ABSOLUTELY.........

[Challenger340]

330 # or so, Seat pressure ?

Good stuff !
Keeps the parts where "they outa be"

[oldschool]

330 # or so, Seat pressure ?

Good stuff !
Keeps the parts where "they outa be"

they are k motion 1000h springs. 265# @ 2.00" 825# @1.200".i have them set up at 2.00" w/.800" lift cam.

[firefighter3931]

Good to hear the valvetrain geometry issues have been adressed.  

With that much spring pressure the margin for error is diminished....you need things "right"  



Ron

[oldschool]

UPDATE: Turns out that the test headers were 2" step to 2 1/8" with 3 1/2" collector. I thought the horse power would go up, but it did not. My final pulls 847 hp at 6600 and 756 torque at 5600. I tried different timing at 34 to 38 degrees; it liked 36 the best. I tried 3 different intakes. I used the 440-3 and a 440-2 w/ 2" spacer to a 4500. I also tried an Indy dual plane. The peak hp and tq between the 2 single planes were the same. The 1 w/ the spacer averaged about 10 more hp and about 10 more ft lb of tq. The dual plane made 88 less hp and 68 ft lb less tq.
I started the dyno pulls with 116 and all my EGT's were low, and made 830 hp. All I did was switch to 110 and it picked up to 847. The EGT's are still a little low, so I can probably use a little less octane. I tried to retared my cam shaft to 110* from the card recommended 107*, the best I could get was 109*. I was trying to get my hp to peak closer to 7000 rpm's.
All these tests were done on Stuska dyno with an inertia factor of 0.32.
Recap of engine specs:
580"
14.16 cr
.800" / 290 @.050 solid roller
572-13 cnc365 heads
Jessel 1.7 rockers
440-3 intake w/1150 dominator
2 1/8 step to 2 1/4 w/ 4" collector

Dyno sheets to follow