580" dyno date /RESULTS

[oldschool]

i will be dynoing my 580" motor for my 70 charger on june 8. i had some set backs. one was my crank flange where the flywheel bolts to,was not true. the first shop bent it.i had ALOT of problems with that shop.it was off .015".
the reason for the rebuild in the first place,was the vibration. when i had my shop ballance the rotating assembly,they said bring in the flywheel so we can check it.sure enough when it was bolted to the crank,and spun ,you could see the wobble. this is a bryant crank,so i was shocked it was off.then he saw where it had been dropped  . it only bent the flange,everything else checked ok.i had the shop cut it true on a lathe,now it is perfect.
i also thought i had a problem with the head flow.turned out it was just the shop did not put the bolt that holds the jessel bar in. without that bolt,it leaves a big hole in the roof of the port  . i cant belive i missed that one too.... thank you dwayne porter. that mistake set me back 2 weeks. the heads still dont flow what indy says they will.they flowed 388cfm @.800,indy says they should flow400@.800  
it should still make alot of steam thou.im guessing between 850 and 900  ,we'll know on june 8. i will post some pics of the build and dyno results soon

[tan top]

damn , sounds like a heck of a motor you have got going on there    looking forward to seeing pictures &  dyno report 

[Mefirst]

About the head flow.. I dont think you will notice any difference between the heads flowing 388cmf or 400cmf. That engine will still make some serious power... I also think companys like Indy, etc.. will write in their adds a higher rounded up flow number than the head actually makes, its just marketing strategy BS...

/Tom

[firefighter3931]

Looking forward to the dyno results OS 

The high ratio rockers should pay dividends and allow those heads to reach their potential. Geez, i can't believe some Bozo shop would drop a Bryant crank of all things !    Why couldn't it be a SB chevy crank or something equally worthless  Good news that it's all fixed and ready to roll 

What brand of Dyno...DTS, Superflow, Stutska ?


Ron

[oldschool]

Looking forward to the dyno results OS 

The high ratio rockers should pay dividends and allow those heads to reach their potential. Geez, i can't believe some Bozo shop would drop a Bryant crank of all things !    Why couldn't it be a SB chevy crank or something equally worthless  Good news that it's all fixed and ready to roll 

What brand of Dyno...DTS, Superflow, Stutska ?


Ron

hey ron, i'm going to use a superflow.i could use the stuska now,but i'm waiting for the superflow.yeah,it was a chevy shop that droped it.they messed alot of stuff up. like:
miscalculate comp. height for pistons,to low in bore
miscalculate valve notches.wrong place and angle.
cut deck about .200" to o deck piston,but not square front to back or side to side. off about .010"
did not cut intake side of head,instead cut the manifold.now i have to butcher every intake manifold to make it fit.
they broke off a bolt in my new mega block
theirs more,but i need to stop because i'm getting mad again. i'll never let a shop touch my mopar motor again,unless they know mopars.i'm alot wiser now too,that was 15 years ago.
yes you are right about the 1.7,s with .800" valve lift,that is some serious tilt on the arms! i'll have to keep an eye on the roller lifters,thats got to be hard on them.
on a side note ron,can i have the 337 manifold you have at dwayne,s shop? just kidding,but i've been waiting 2 months for 3 that i orderd from mancini.i want to try one on one of the 500" motors,i bet it will work good.

[firefighter3931]

Looking forward to the dyno results OS 

The high ratio rockers should pay dividends and allow those heads to reach their potential. Geez, i can't believe some Bozo shop would drop a Bryant crank of all things !    Why couldn't it be a SB chevy crank or something equally worthless  Good news that it's all fixed and ready to roll 

What brand of Dyno...DTS, Superflow, Stutska ?


Ron

hey ron, i'm going to use a superflow.i could use the stuska now,but i'm waiting for the superflow.yeah,it was a chevy shop that droped it.they messed alot of stuff up. like:
miscalculate comp. height for pistons,to low in bore
miscalculate valve notches.wrong place and angle.
cut deck about .200" to o deck piston,but not square front to back or side to side. off about .010"
did not cut intake side of head,instead cut the manifold.now i have to butcher every intake manifold to make it fit.
they broke off a bolt in my new mega block
theirs more,but i need to stop because i'm getting mad again. i'll never let a shop touch my mopar motor again,unless they know mopars.i'm alot wiser now too,that was 15 years ago.
yes you are right about the 1.7,s with .800" valve lift,that is some serious tilt on the arms! i'll have to keep an eye on the roller lifters,thats got to be hard on them.
on a side note ron,can i have the 337 manifold you have at dwayne,s shop? just kidding,but i've been waiting 2 months for 3 that i orderd from mancini.i want to try one on one of the 500" motors,i bet it will work good.

Good Lord....that sure seems like a lot of screw ups ! There must be a descent Mopar shop in your area, no ?

Have you looked at the Isky Roller lifters with the solid bushing that replaces the needle bearings ? I ordered a set of those for mine and they are pricy $$ but are supposed to be bulletproof and tolerate lots of spring pressure. 

Ya that 337 manifold is a hot commodity.  If you're interested in borrowing it for testing that would be OK....just pay for shipping both ways and it's yours to play with. I'll need it back though.... in the fall 




Ron

[oldschool]

yes,i have an awesome machine shop now. they have been doing all of my work for about 15 years now.they have done about ten or so stroker shortblocks for me,with not one problem.
thats the first i've heard about the bushed lifters.i will check that out. do you know if they have offset lifters like the comps?
ron,thats awesome of you to offer up your manifold,thanks. i was kidding thou.it would suck to have that thing work real good,then unbolt it and give it back,when you know you might never get another one.
one thing about the old shop cutting my deck almost 1/4" was with the 7.100 rod it made a really light piston.the pin is at the top of the oil ring.i think it's weight was 505 gm. the total bobweight was 2225 gm.between the old set up and new i think i lost about 160 gm per piston and pin. it should rev good and go easy on some parts

[firefighter3931]

yes,i have an awesome machine shop now. they have been doing all of my work for about 15 years now.they have done about ten or so stroker shortblocks for me,with not one problem.
thats the first i've heard about the bushed lifters.i will check that out. do you know if they have offset lifters like the comps?
ron,thats awesome of you to offer up your manifold,thanks. i was kidding thou.it would suck to have that thing work real good,then unbolt it and give it back,when you know you might never get another one.
one thing about the old shop cutting my deck almost 1/4" was with the 7.100 rod it made a really light piston.the pin is at the top of the oil ring.i think it's weight was 505 gm. the total bobweight was 2225 gm.between the old set up and new i think i lost about 160 gm per piston and pin. it should rev good and go easy on some parts

OS,

I still can't get over some shop chopping a 1/4 in off the deck of some high dollar aftermarket block....simply unbelievable !   

I was wondering why your bobweight came in so light when you posted it on Moparts...now it makes sense. The pistons are .200 shorter than they should be.  At any rate this is going to spin up like a smallblock with that light of a rotating mass....should be into the rev limiter in a microsecond 

The lifters are the Isky red zones with the EZ-Roll option in case you were wondering about them. I like the fact that the needle bearings are replaced with a solid bushing so if there is an axle failure your engine doesn't get littered with debris. One guy that i'm aware of has had good success so far....he freshened up his 572 Hemi longblock at 3k and re-installed the EZ Roll lifters. Standard needle bearing lifters would have needed a re-build most likely.

Hopefully MP starts to reproduce the 337 manifold so your order can get filled. Like i said earlier the plan is to dyno test it on my 572 with a 4150 and 4500 carbs to see where it stacks up. We'll also be testing a 440-3 for some comparative data at that time so the truth will be known at some point later this year. 

Looking forward to June 8th 



Ron


Ps. I was thinking you might want to chassis dyno one of your 500in powered beasts and do a manifold swap while it's strapped down. Takes all of 5-10 minutes to change manifolds on a BB mopar. At least then you'd know if it was worthwhile persuing the elusive 337 or just sticking with the ICH dual plane. 

[oldschool]

yeah so much for the extra deck thickness that the megablock had  when you cut the manifold to fit it leaves the mounting flange thin also. it just sucks. bad thing is the shop owner is a good friend.he was going to do the work ,then he had to have surgery.so he had his chevy guys do the work. he does not even know about the problems,the friendship is worth more than the money.i just dont use him anymore.
i'm going to test 3 manifolds. indy dualplane,440-2 w/2" spacer up to a 4500 and a 440-3. alot of people say the 440-2 w/spacer should make the most power. i guess we will see that too.
i will keep your offer on the 337 in mind.maybee when i'm done with this big boy.

[firefighter3931]

Ya, it's too bad the deckheight is messed up because i would have really liked to see my 337 on your 580 build. 

I'll be interested to see the 440-2 vs the 440-3 comparison. On a 500in build i can see the 440-2 with the adapter working better than the 440-3 but on a 580 the 440-3 should be the clear winner....especially on a beast like yours with the 572-13 heads and close to .800 lift at the valve. I'll go on record and predict the 440-3 will be the best piece by at least 20hp. 


The offer still stands on the 337....just say the word and it's yours to play with 



Ron

[Challenger340]

i will be dynoing my 580" motor for my 70 charger on june 8. i had some set backs. one was my crank flange where the flywheel bolts to,was not true. the first shop bent it.i had ALOT of problems with that shop.it was off .015".
the reason for the rebuild in the first place,was the vibration. when i had my shop ballance the rotating assembly,they said bring in the flywheel so we can check it.sure enough when it was bolted to the crank,and spun ,you could see the wobble. this is a bryant crank,so i was shocked it was off.then he saw where it had been dropped  . it only bent the flange,everything else checked ok.i had the shop cut it true on a lathe,now it is perfect.
i also thought i had a problem with the head flow.turned out it was just the shop did not put the bolt that holds the jessel bar in. without that bolt,it leaves a big hole in the roof of the port  . i cant belive i missed that one too.... thank you dwayne porter. that mistake set me back 2 weeks. the heads still dont flow what indy says they will.they flowed 388cfm @.800,indy says they should flow400@.800 
it should still make alot of steam thou.im guessing between 850 and 900  ,we'll know on june 8. i will post some pics of the build and dyno results soon

What Heads did you go with OS ? The 572-13 ?

How the heck did you end up needing 1/4 " off the Decks ?

[oldschool]

yes it has 572-13 cnc 365. the old shop miscaluated the comp. height when they orderd pistons. rather than tell me and order new pistons,they just butcherd my block.hell,i would have paid for the second set of pistons too! it would have been cheaper in the long run.

[Challenger340]

yes it has 572-13 cnc 365. the old shop miscaluated the comp. height when they orderd pistons. rather than tell me and order new pistons,they just butcherd my block.hell,i would have paid for the second set of pistons too! it would have been cheaper in the long run.

YIKES !
That sucks !

So they Decked the Block that far ? 
Dem Boyz is Hardcore !

Whats yer quench at now, assuming around the 4.500 Bore ?

[oldschool]

yes it has 572-13 cnc 365. the old shop miscaluated the comp. height when they orderd pistons. rather than tell me and order new pistons,they just butcherd my block.hell,i would have paid for the second set of pistons too! it would have been cheaper in the long run.

YIKES !
That sucks !

So they Decked the Block that far ? 
Dem Boyz is Hardcore !

Whats yer quench at now, assuming around the 4.500 Bore ?

i'm at zero deck,the 1039 gasket is .051". the compression ratio worked out to 14.16. and yes dem boys cut that much off the deck.

[Challenger340]

14:1 ,  WOW !

Lotta Squeeze !

You goin Methanol ?

[Mefirst]

 

14:1 comp. Perfekt to run it on E85

/Tom

[oldschool]

14:1 ,  WOW !

Lotta Squeeze !

You goin Methanol ?

no, just gasoline.maybe vp c12 or sunoco. i will dyno both and see what it likes.

[oldschool]

14:1 comp. Perfekt to run it on E85

/Tom

i cant get that stuff around here,or else i would try it.

[Steve P.]

I've been missing allllllot around here lately as I had back surgery and can't sit up for very long. The other night I was BSing with Firefighter-Ron on the phone and he was telling me your tale... I nearly shit when he told me they hacked .200 off the top of your block....    I understand the owner was your buddy, but before he returned to the shop I think I would have taken a couple hundred thousands off someones azz.... did they think you just wouldn't ever notice???

This would be another reason I DON'T own a gun.......


Can't wait to see your dyno results.... 

[oldschool]

hey guys,ran into a small problem with my new jessel rockers.the roller tip did not center up on the valve tip.we were able to move the spacers around and get the intakes perfect.but we could not get the exhaust to line up right.some were ok and some had the roller hang off and not touch 1/3 of the valve tip. i called indy,(thats where i got them) and talked to kenny about them.he said they would be ok. it just didnt look right to me.
so i sent a few pictures to jessel.they got right back to me.they said they messed up and to send them back.this time they said they would get a set of 572-13 heads and mock them up,to make sure they are perfect.they will press in new bearings to center them up.
i tried to use my old 1.55 stands,which fit perfect,not even close.they moved the valves on the newer heads.the new shafts to the old stands were off about 1/4".i should have them this week and dyno next week.i just didnt want to run the motor unless it was right.with the spring presures im running,it needs to be right.should be posting some #,s next week.

[Steve P.]

ABSOLUTELY.........

[Challenger340]

330 # or so, Seat pressure ?

Good stuff !
Keeps the parts where "they outa be"

[oldschool]

330 # or so, Seat pressure ?

Good stuff !
Keeps the parts where "they outa be"

they are k motion 1000h springs. 265# @ 2.00" 825# @1.200".i have them set up at 2.00" w/.800" lift cam.

[firefighter3931]

Good to hear the valvetrain geometry issues have been adressed.  

With that much spring pressure the margin for error is diminished....you need things "right"  



Ron

[oldschool]

UPDATE: Turns out that the test headers were 2" step to 2 1/8" with 3 1/2" collector. I thought the horse power would go up, but it did not. My final pulls 847 hp at 6600 and 756 torque at 5600. I tried different timing at 34 to 38 degrees; it liked 36 the best. I tried 3 different intakes. I used the 440-3 and a 440-2 w/ 2" spacer to a 4500. I also tried an Indy dual plane. The peak hp and tq between the 2 single planes were the same. The 1 w/ the spacer averaged about 10 more hp and about 10 more ft lb of tq. The dual plane made 88 less hp and 68 ft lb less tq.
I started the dyno pulls with 116 and all my EGT's were low, and made 830 hp. All I did was switch to 110 and it picked up to 847. The EGT's are still a little low, so I can probably use a little less octane. I tried to retared my cam shaft to 110* from the card recommended 107*, the best I could get was 109*. I was trying to get my hp to peak closer to 7000 rpm's.
All these tests were done on Stuska dyno with an inertia factor of 0.32.
Recap of engine specs:
580"
14.16 cr
.800" / 290 @.050 solid roller
572-13 cnc365 heads
Jessel 1.7 rockers
440-3 intake w/1150 dominator
2 1/8 step to 2 1/4 w/ 4" collector

Dyno sheets to follow

[c00nhunterjoe]

 

[firefighter3931]

Excellent numbers OS 

Are those your regular headers ? Looks like the big cam is bleeding off lots of cylinder pressure....hence the need for less octane. That's a bonus ! 

Congrats....i'd be very happy with those numbers. 



Ron

[oldschool]

Excellent numbers OS 

Are those your regular headers ? Looks like the big cam is bleeding off lots of cylinder pressure....hence the need for less octane. That's a bonus ! 

Congrats....i'd be very happy with those numbers. 



Ron

thanks ron.yeah those were my big headers.it did not pick up 1 hp and lost 5-6 ftlb.i guess the motor did'nt need bigger pipes or collector.kind of proves bigger is not always better.i'm happy with the numbers,especially the torque.would have liked a little more horsepower thou. it shows just how hard it is to make 850-900 hp N/A and still be able to drive it on the street.i could have put more cam in it and bigger heads,but would lose alot of driveability. administrator troy is trying to help me load my dyno sheets.take a look at the torque curve,it's flat as a table.....

[oldschool]

Here are a few pics from the build up.

[oldschool]

More.

[oldschool]

couple on the dyno.

[oldschool]

had a few more.

[Troy]

Here's the Dyno output...

Troy

[Troy]

The rest...

Troy

[oldschool]

thanks for the help troy,i appreciate it.i've been trying for days to get this posted.thanks again.

[firefighter3931]

OS & Troy ; thanks for posting the pics and Data 

Wow, that torque curve is simply awesome !   

It'll be interesting to compare it to mine that will be going on the dyno later this fall. I won't have as much cam/compression/cylinder head flow and will be using a 337 low rise single plane and 1050 cfm 4150 style carb with 2in TTI headers so we'll see how that compares. 

Honestly, you wouldn't notice much difference between 850 & 900hp in a street car....both are obscene amounts of power. 


Ron


Ps. I'll post some updated pics of mine soon...finally got it back on the ground and the SS springs settled down once the front & rear suspension were fully loaded. I think you'll like how the car sits with the 295 Drag radials 

[oldschool]

OS & Troy ; thanks for posting the pics and Data 

Wow, that torque curve is simply awesome !   

It'll be interesting to compare it to mine that will be going on the dyno later this fall. I won't have as much cam/compression/cylinder head flow and will be using a 337 low rise single plane and 1050 cfm 4150 style carb with 2in TTI headers so we'll see how that compares. 

Honestly, you wouldn't notice much difference between 850 & 900hp in a street car....both are obscene amounts of power. 


Ron


Ps. I'll post some updated pics of mine soon...finally got it back on the ground and the SS springs settled down once the front & rear suspension were fully loaded. I think you'll like how the car sits with the 295 Drag radials 

i would really like to see pics of the tires and stance.thats next for me.i'm hoping the 295,s fit and look good.
i'm going to the chassis dyno next.i want to find the driveline loss.it will be the same one i used before so it should be apples to apples.keep us up on your build,i love this big motor stuff 
my next motor will be rebuild of an old 500"motor. i'm thinking 528" (4.5x4.15).

[Troy]

No problem. I dunno what I'd do with 600+ ft-lbs at 3000 RPM. 

Troy

[c00nhunterjoe]

nice numbers man, but what was happening between 6k and 7200? why the spikes and drops in hp?

[oldschool]

nice numbers man, but what was happening between 6k and 7200? why the spikes and drops in hp?

the waterbrake was getting hot and it was trying to compensate.

[Purple440]

Holy @#$...what is a waterbrake and what the hell 500+ TQ at 3100RPM?   I don't get that number at any RPM range let alone 3100RPM.  I can't imagine what that is like.  Better than sex?  Let us know how that thing rides so we can live vicariously...

[six-tee-nine]

Holy @#$...what is a waterbreak and what the hell 500+ TQ at 3100RPM?   I don't get that number at any RPM range let alone 3100RPM.  I can't imagine what that is like.  Better than sex?  Let us know how that thing rides so we can live vicariously...

+1

[BLAM]

Wow!  Very nice!

[oldschool]

Holy @#$...what is a waterbrake and what the hell 500+ TQ at 3100RPM?   I don't get that number at any RPM range let alone 3100RPM.  I can't imagine what that is like.  Better than sex?  Let us know how that thing rides so we can live vicariously...

sorry took so long. i hardly ever look in this forum.a waterbrake is the device used to put the load on the motor.it uses water to try and bog the engine down.with alot of torque it can get the water hot after alot of pulls.
this motor made over 600 ftlb of torque from 3200 thru 7200.it peaked at 750 ftlb.driving it is unreal.you hardly ever have to down shift.it pulls as hard in high gear as it does in low gear.it just never stops pulling......

[Purple440]

No problem oldschool - got any pics of the car it's in? 

Those #'s are incredible...and your CR is really high.   

I'm so damn jealous.   

[mauve66]

and here i thought my hoping for 600HP was too big of a dream

[oldschool]

No problem oldschool - got any pics of the car it's in? 

Those #'s are incredible...and your CR is really high.   

I'm so damn jealous.   

here ya go....

[oldschool]

a few more

[Purple440]

Very nice and clean.  Congrats.

Next request: youtube video