Is this an OK reading?

[68RRFlyer]

Hi Folks,

My question relates to the ammeter readings.  1969 Charger, 383, A/C,  and I've replaced the points with an electronic ignition kit from Bouchillon Performance (orange box), new alternator from Advance which is a 55 amp that has dual fields (and the extra field is grounded), new voltage regulator, and new battery as well.  Runs great now with the new ignition, but here's what I read on the meter:  Key on, the needle goes into the negative just about a needle width.  After start, the meter pegs to 40 then backs off and remains at a constant 10 with no fluctuations.  Battery volt readings on the posts at idle when the car is up to temp is 15.  Same at the regulator too.  The regulator does get hot to the touch as well.  No melted wires or smoke or anything, however, when I replaced all of this initially, I used a new regulator from Bouchillon which started to smoke and get real hot.  When I replace it with the stock unit, no problems were noted but they still get hot.  I bought a new regulator from Advance and those are the readings I'm now seeing on the meter as I previously described.

I have ground from the cylinder head to the firewall (all clean and bare metal), clean grounds on the regulator base, and an extra ground going from the battery negative to the core support.  So are those OK readings or is there some short going on that I'm not aware of?  Any help woudl be appreciated.  Thanks!

Cheers 

[Nacho-RT74]

what regulator you got ?

do you have some stuff hooked directly to batt ?

[68RRFlyer]

Nacho, standard regulator for 69 ( I didn't use the 70 and later style).  Nothing is hooked to the battery directly.  Everything is stock including the radio.  That help?

Cheers 

[Nacho-RT74]

yes but no, because we have now more mistery to discover LOL. It is more less pretty normal get more output when engine is hot. BUT the perfect reading ( talking about ammeter ) is get a death center needle reading with just ocasionally slight bumps up and down readings, but average center reading no matter if giving RPMs.

However on start up process is normal get teh discharge, then start up, and get a high Charge reading to get back the power to batt lost on cranking. That should take couple of minutes untill get center reading. Then at iddle but geared, with stock alt you'll get a slight discharge. Giving gas, will get charge back, and will be on that play forever. The best deal is try to get a center needle reading MORE TIME AS POSIBLE, even better if at iddle and geared.

is the new regulator an old mechanical kind or new upgraded electronic with old school look ?

BTW is A GOOD ADVICE change to electronic regulator when running electronic ignition. Electronic ignition module is a COMPUTER... needs a good average power without high and low peaks.

[68RRFlyer]

Thanks Nacho.  Yeah, I thought the readings should be at zero, so that's why I'm asking the questions.  The regulator is one I got from Advance that's for a 1969.  It's not the 70 style one.  As far as I know, the internals are stock on the regulator but not 100% positive on that.  I read your post on the parallel wiring.  Are you saying I should maybe upgrade to the newer style 70 and later voltage reg?  The alternator is a dual field one with as I said, the one field grounded, so would then both fields be utilized?  If you have a diagram of the 70-later upgrade, PM me or post it!  But going back to the issue, would the upgrading of the ignition system cause that needle reading? 

Cheers 

[68RRFlyer]

I've got a 70 style regulator now.  Just to make sure I'm wiring it correctly:  basically take the existing Field and IGN wires that ran to the old regulator and splice them together, then run that union to the center pin on the newer regulator.  The second field wire that I currently have grounded on the new alternator should be run to the outside pin on the new regulator.  Does that sound right?  Nacho?  ANYONE?? 

Cheers 

[Nacho-RT74]

That will work as you made, but lets make it correctly with correct colors better.

splice a blue wire in to the existing blue wire to regulator to run from there to alt brush. thats the only wire you have to elongate. Of course use a female spade terminal to alt brush

then splice both, green and blue wires on the the regular pigtail, to the matching colors available on regulator pigtail what are of course also green and blue. SOME pigtails on some auto parts shops are red and green instead blue and green... then blue wires should be spliced to the red and green to green.

You will have now constant positive source coming from ign with key on RUN ( blue wire ), and regulated ground coming thorught green wire from regulator ( green ). Reg takes the ground from chassis.

be sure both wires arriving now to alternator brushes are safe and arriving to ISOLATED brushes, no matter which one where.

thats all.

BTW I'M NOT SAYING this will save the "problem" you are having right now, BUT sure will give you a good improvement specially to the Electronic Ignition. But MAYBE will fix if is a regulator problem

[Nacho-RT74]

decided to edit a diagram available on the web, with colors and more info for a better explanation

[68RRFlyer]

Nacho,

Here's how I wired it based on this site:  http://www.mopar1.us/charge.html  Unless I'm reading something wrong, it says to connect the old field and IGN wires to the center prong and the second field should be connected to the outer prong.  I have it wired like that and here's my ammeter readings:

Key off: needle centered
Key on, no crank : slight discharge
Engine Idle:  Needle slight discharge - battery volts is 12.5, maybe 13 at best
Lights on:  Needle -10amp discharge, no change on battery voltage
Lights back off:  Needle slight discharge, needle pulsates very slightly
Rev RPMs or normal driving:  Slight discharge

At no time has the battery volts dropped below 12 and also, at no time has the needle every shown a charge.  I'll try and swap the connectors and see what happens based on your diagram.  Total opposite of what the old mechanical regulator was showing.  Weird.  Another thing, the IGN side actually has two wires connected to a plug and it appears factory to me.  I don't see the extra wire on the 69 wiring diagram.  Basically on that side of the regulator, there's three wires all spliced together, no two.  Any ideas?  Nice diagram too by the way.

Cheers 

[68RRFlyer]

I switched the wires and now have it wired like you say, Nacho.  Still no dice.  Same readings on the gauge.     So I go from an overcharge situation with the points style regulator, then switch to the 70 style electronic and now have no charge at all.  What in the world happened?    Why is your diagram wired one way and the other one I posted wired differently?  Is it achieveing the same results?

Cheers     

[Nacho-RT74]

ok, I'm going step by step...

yes the diagram on the link you posted is because on mechanical regulators the FIELD drives positive coming out from regulator, throught the green wire. Negative is the brush grounded.

On laters the green is now the regulated source NEGATIVE, so thats the reason why we have a negative field, for a while blue is positive and is spliced from ig to regulator and field. The section to positive field is the new wire. If you analize the diagram, they have posted the same I told you BUT I posted with colors to make it more explicit. Green is allways the regulated source.

so I told you wire it in that way just to get matched the colors as original design, but the way you wired works for sure, as far you never conect the blue wire coming from ign key to the outer terminal of regulator what is negative output

Three wires spliced on the blue wire... well remember Blue line feeds on the complete electronic system: ECU, ballast, regulator and field, and if equipped, also the choke. On 74 also feeds the interlock reset button. On stock and untouched harnesses the main splice is hidden by the tape, but who knows if you have everything spliced now out of the tape or just a part of the blue line splice is down the tape and the upgrades are out of the tape.

We have to take care about some stuff, I have noticed on some 69s or earlier cars the wire to ballast spliced to + lead of coil is blue too, dunno if stock or new replacement, but both wires should it be brown to save any mistake. where is everything spliced ? with ballast unplugged check for power on run JUST IN CASE some splice is made on the wrong side of ballast. ALL splices should it be on the "input" to ballast, so powered in RUN. The other wire of ballast should it be unpowered as far is unplugged, same as + lead of coil... IN RUN. Cranking is another story.

If everything is correct, with regulator is plugged and key in RUN, you should have 12 volts or close between green and blue wires at alt fields. You can check it directly in to wire, with fields unplugged. You can check also for 12 volts between blue wire and chassis, or between green wire and positive on batt ( or alt stud ).

[68RRFlyer]

Well here's the deal, I have 11 volts at the + side of the ballast, 11 volts at the battery terminal of the alternator, and I checked one of the fields of the alternator and again, shows 11 volts when test the other field (not the original field brush).  Battery shows 12.5-13V.  I had it wired your way and it was showing a worse indication on the needle than before, so I wired it like the diagram I posted in my previous link.  Pull the battery cable when the car is running and the engine dies.

Alternator tests fine at 13-14 volts or so at Advance, so the alternator's OK.  Now an interesting thing is the A/C-Heat fuse has popped.  Replacing the fuse lowers the needle to a -5 to -10 discharge on the meter then it pops again.  The result is the needle is still showing a discharge no matter what I do.  Another thing...I ran the car for about :45 minutes around town and had all the lights on for about the last :20 minutes.  After I parked the car in the garage with it at idle, lights on, battery volts still show 12.5 and about 10 at the ballast + side.  Needle on ammeter shows -10.  While under load (accelerating or higher than idle RPMs) the needle will move slightly, and I mean SLIGHTLY, higher towards the plus side.  So instead of showing -10 it shows -9 or -8.  So if I'm getting zero charge through my system, then shouldn't that battery have been drained by now after that much driving with lights on???

Based on the readings at the ballast resistor with it being 11 volts, the car actually running for almost an hour without dying, and the battery still showing 12.5 volts after a good 20 minutes with the lights on, does that mean it's wired correctly?  Does the popping of the AC fuse mean there's a short that's sucking the voltage off the system somewhere?  Too many questions!    This is all stock, no splices anywhere except what I did to add the electronic ignition and an electric choke.  Thoughts Nacho??? 

Thanks for the help.

Cheers   

[Nacho-RT74]

loosen ammeter nuts ?

[68RRFlyer]

Nope, they are tight and secure.  I think maybe the AC fuse popping may be the culprit but I don't see any melted wires or frayed cab;es anywhere.  No reason it should be popping unless I have a short somewhere.  But regardless of that, putting the stock voltage reg back on results in an overcharge situation.  This is why I'm so puzzled over this.  Why would putting the old style regulator on overcharge, then putting the electronic one on result in a slight constant draw and no charge? 

Now that I have all wiring back to stock, and a new 69 style regulator back on, the only variable here is really the alternator.  But testing it at Advance results in it being OK.  It's a replacement 65 amp alternator.  Here's some new info:

-When the car is running the ammeter shows +40 on initial start then drops to about +20.
-Alternator volts at post on the back of the alternator read 16
-Volts at ballast read 14.5
-Battery volts read about 14-15
-Disconnecting the battery + while the car is running results in a slight increase in RPMs, and the car continues to run.  Ammeter at that point drops to center of the gauge.

So where should I go from here?  Should I try another alternator for the heck of it?  If it tested good on the tester, what else could be wrong with it?

Thanks for listening guys.  I've been working on these old cars for 20+ years but when something like this pops up I feel as though I dropped back to a 3rd grade education!    I like cars...cars are fun...you have a car...

Cheers 

[Nacho-RT74]

-Disconnecting the battery + while the car is running results in a slight increase in RPMs, and the car continues to run.  Ammeter at that point drops to center of the gauge.

yeah thats logical, because ammeter reads power coming and going from batt, so not batt present, no power coming through ammeter ( unless some device is hooked on batt side of equation ).

ok... trust me unless we were playing with damaged elec regulator or bad grounded regulator, I'm pretty lost... will keep thinking.

did you try to unplugg batt with elec regulator ?

[68RRFlyer]

You and me both Nacho!  Yes, when I had the 70's electronic regulator hooked up, the ammeter shows a discharge and when the battery + is removed, then the car dies.  I knew the readings were normal on the ammeter gauge when I took the battery + off and with the car still running, that means the alternator is OK.  So what's stumping me, and you too obviously , is that with the old regulator in the system the alternator charges the battery, shows +20 to +40 amps on the gauge at idle, puts out 16 volts at the alt stud, and will keep the car running when the battery is disconnected.  Putting the 70's regulator into the equation results in the battery not being charged, 14 volts at the alt stud, a discharge on the meter, and when the battery + is pulled the car dies.

I'm going to switch out alternators just for grins and see what happens......update in a few hours.

Cheers 

[68RRFlyer]

New alternator, same result.  But, I did find that I have a short in the heater blower switch.  Even with the car off, when I turn the switch off it pops the fuse.  So that'll be replaced.  I think these readings may be normal and Nacho, please see if I'm right:

-With the car in gear after a few seconds, the needles moves to a slight charge, maybe +5 or so.  Way down from the +20 at idle in Park.
-Next while driving, the needle moves to the +20 or higher mark while accelerating.   When I come to a stop, the needle moves back down to +5 or so. This still seems excessive but closer to normal.

Not sure what happened or why it does this now, but one thing I did replace was the positive battery cable.  I also added a second ground to the voltage regulator (an actual seperate wire from the base to a independent ground....and yes, all the paint was scraped away on the base so it was a metal to metal contact to begine with ).  Volts are still reading around 15 or so at the ballast, positive alt post, and battery.

Since I added the electronic ignition, would this cause the excessive amps being drawn through the system resulting in what I'm seeing?

Maybe I'm getting closer to having this figured out!!!!   

Cheers   

[Nacho-RT74]

Since I added the electronic ignition, would this cause the excessive amps being drawn through the system resulting in what I'm seeing?
 

not, and if there was a chance, not enough to have those readings. ECU consumption is marginal.

weird par on this is when you tested for voltage when elec regulator in place, between field wires, you got 12 volts right ? ( or so ).

we have lot output from mechanical system, and no charge with elec system, being same alt.

even with a high consumption around, when reving up the engine allways will have charge reading and that never did happen with the elect reg. 

I'm toward on some regulator related. IN BOTH cases.

[68RRFlyer]

I agree.  Yes, with everything being equal (new alternator, battery) with the mechanical regulator I get an overcharge and with the electronic regulator I get a constant discharge. 

They're cheap, so I'll try another 70 style electronic regulator and wire it up like your diagram again and see what happens.  Just really weird! 

Cheers