re-bodies, re-stamps, and such.

[Old Moparz]

I don't see any legitimate reasons to stamp replacement parts, blocks, or fender tags with the VIN. Even repro broadcast sheets & door stickers can give documentation to a bogus car. The only reason to do it is to increase the car's authenticity, which in turn increases it's value. If someone is a sincere hobbyist who loves the car for what it is, it shouldn't matter what number is on the replacement part. More importantly, the part should be installed correctly making the repair on the car itself better.

The only tag that the DMV is interested in is the dash tag. That tag must match the title, or the transferable registration (ownership papers). If you don't have a dash VIN tag, I'm almost sure all states issue their own. Yes, I know it's a PITA & that a state issued tag will decrease the value, but that's my point. Which will hurt the rare car's value more, a state issued tag on a true, legit, Hemi car, or a Hemi tag swapped to a 318 car that turns out to be a fake?

For me personally, it isn't about what the dash VIN states that makes me happy. Of the 6 cars I have currently, only one is a true HP car. It's a 1970 383 Road Runner, with an 11:1 440 in it. My '68 Charger was originally a 383-2V car, but that will also get a 440 between the fenders that I've been saving. The '71 Scamp, the '68 Coronet ragtop & the '69 Satellite ragtop all have 318's that will stay put. The 71 Barracuda had a 318, but now has a 400-4V in it. All the dash tags will stay put.

I know to some it's a challenge making sure the survivor it authentic, or that they have 1 of 3 made a certain color with a certain option. Others enjoy restoring crayon marks on the underside, or getting date coded parts that are correct or NOS. That's cool, but not for me. I won't lie, I'd love to have a genuine, Hemi, ragtop, but that isn't happening, even if I was handed one for free in an envelope. I'd rather have a crate Hemi in my 318 dash VIN Satellite.

[hotrod98]

A guy called me a few weeks ago at the shop and wanted to sell me a complete running 69 runner that was originally a 383 4-speed and now had a 440 automatic in it. He said that it was a good running nice solid car and he only wanted $2600 for it, but there was a catch. While he had a clear title in his name and all of the stamped numbers around the car matched the title, the vin plate had been stolen. He had removed the dash while working on the car and someone stole the entire dash. He had to find a replacement dash, but now had no vin plate. I told him that I already had too many cars and wasn't really interested in it. I told him that his best bet was to sell it to someone to build a racecar out of since it could never be put back on the road legally. I thought for a minute about buying it and parting it out so that other cars could live, but decided that I didn't have time to mess with it and it would be better off ending up as a racecar than a useless hull. It's a shame that the car is now almost worthless as far as the law is concerned. Whenever I remove a dash while restoring a car whether it be mine or a customer's, the vin plate goes into my safe until time to re-attach it.

[Blakcharger440]

What? I never remove any VIN tags from the dashes of any of the cars that I am fixing up...but thats just me.
I dont think those tags were meant to be fooled with or tampered with.
What I do when dissassembling a car is I put the whole dash assembly out of the way in a safe place until I am ready for it but the VIN tag never comes off.

[hemihead]

I am the same. I never mess with any VIN numbers,anywhere on the car.

[hotrod98]

How many cars have you restored where the dash is perfect? When you send a dash to Just Dashes, it better not have the vin plate on it. You may never see it again. When I say resto, I don't mean sand and paint the exterior and recover the seats. I mean a full blown resto. On pre 68 cars the vin plate is on the hinge pillar. I don't like to paint around the tag. It looks too cheezy. I keep the correct rivets to re-attach the vin plates.
You guys do it your way and the resto shops will do it the correct way.

[Blown70]

What? I never remove any VIN tags from the dashes of any of the cars that I am fixing up...but thats just me.
I dont think those tags were meant to be fooled with or tampered with.
What I do when dissassembling a car is I put the whole dash assembly out of the way in a safe place until I am ready for it but the VIN tag never comes off.

Well I will have to on the car I am working on to paint the dash... Trust me it needs to come off to paint... However.... I have not Rad support, trunk rail etc.  They are gone.  Heavy Modified car.

Tom

[BigBlackDodge]

Interesting read.

http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm

I searched 'VIN laws' and this popped up. I'm not surfing on Ford sites! Honestly!!!!!


BBD

[rich4406bbl]

The post by Big Black Dodge seems to have found all the right info. Basically it seems that once the VIN is affixed by the original manufacturer to a car or part that's it. Though it may be easier to move the numbers from a totally destroyed hemi car to a good donor because it requires less repair, it is ILLEGAL and if the car is then sold it may be considered FRAUD or THEFT BY DECEPTION. I'll leave it at this point. Supposed you have 2 identical hemi chargers. One is a documented numbers matching original that has been restored and the other is EXACTLY the same but has been re-bodied (or whatever you want to call it). Which one are you going to pay top dollar for and feel safer buying??

[Old Moparz]

Interesting read.

http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm

I searched 'VIN laws' and this popped up. I'm not surfing on Ford sites! Honestly!!!!!


BBD

That linked page seems to be pretty clear about the legalities. I recall someone on Moparts stating that even when a body shop is doing repairs to the area of a vehicle where the VIN tag is, it's not as simple as removing, repairing & reinstalling it. There is a procedure to follow based on DMV & the state laws. I don't have any problem with most of my own cars since there is no need to remove a VIN plate to restore the dash. The only car I'm concerned with is my '71 Barracuda where the dash pad is the whole dash.

I've been told that Just Dashes is required to destroy & dispose of any VIN plate still attached when they get a pad to restore. At some point I'll have my dash redone, but hopefully by then I'll have that part sorted out. Like I stated earlier, it's a 318 car & the tag reflects that. I don't give a rat's ass what the tag says the car is, as long as I have the title that matches it & it's the car I like. I'd rather fix & modify the 318 Barracuda I have since it's a solid platform than try to resurrect some Hemi cowl.

[hotrod98]

If you pull your vin plate and reattach it later during a restoration, I don't think the cops are going to show up at your door to arrest you.
Don't ask, don't tell and don't mix up the vin plates.

[73dodge]

Okay let me throw out this scenario for the sake of arguement .

Part of the VIN is stamped on the engine block, all you guys that have replaced engines with ones taken from other cars and swapped them in your cars are guilty of changing VINS on your car. So logically you need to take out the replacment engine and put the numbers matching block back in for it to be a legal car. 

Why should be replacing the engine any less illegal than replacing the VIN on a donor body? Just because an engine is easily removed does not make it legal to replace that engine with something better.

I may be mistaken here so someone please correct me on this if I am wrong.

But

The number stamped on the block is just the last 5 digits of the VIN which is the sequence number of the car. The numbers stamped on the body such as the core support is also the last 5 digits on the VIN. Which brings me back to my point why is it legal to replace the engine and not legal to replace the body of a car?

[Ghoste]

That number is to prevent car theft, not to register your vehicle.  That being said, at it's very strictest interpretation of the law, you are likely correct.  Warranty blocks came with the area unstamped presumably for the dealer to stamp the number after the other one went back to Chrysler.  But ask anyone who thought they bought a numbers matching engine only to discover a restamped block how they feel about any of this.

[BigBlockSam]

i think if your removing the tag to restore the dash and then reinstalling it, your ok. its not fraud.

[Ghoste]

Unless you're a car hating Washington lobbyist. 

[HeavyFuel]

Part of the VIN is stamped on the engine block, all you guys that have replaced engines with ones taken from other cars and swapped them in your cars are guilty of changing VINS on your car. So logically you need to take out the replacment engine and put the numbers matching block back in for it to be a legal car.  

Why should be replacing the engine any less illegal than replacing the VIN on a donor body? Just because an engine is easily removed does not make it legal to replace that engine with something better.

I may be mistaken here so someone please correct me on this if I am wrong.

What are you smokin?

"VIN, an acronym for "vehicle identification number," is usually followed by "number," a redundancy hallowed by custom. It's a string of 17 digits and letters posted on the driver's side dashboard, where it can be seen from outside the car. Each VIN number is unique and contains a code that gives considerable information about the vehicle, including country of origin, manufacturer, and model year. The VIN system in its current form has been in use since the 1981 model year."

What you are talking about is having a #'s matching engine, which does have something to do with the VIN, but is not really what this thread is getting at.  You can swap out hundreds of parts on a car, including the entire drivetrain, and the VIN is totally uneffected.  The resale is, but that is another story.

 

[hotrod98]

This is the wrong forum to be talking about 17 digit vin's. You need to be over on the 06 Charger forum.

[andy74]

This is the wrong forum to be talking about 17 digit vin's. You need to be over on the 06 Charger forum.

:nana:man thats a good one!my VIN only has 13 digits but its a 72

[73dodge]

Part of the VIN is stamped on the engine block, all you guys that have replaced engines with ones taken from other cars and swapped them in your cars are guilty of changing VINS on your car. So logically you need to take out the replacment engine and put the numbers matching block back in for it to be a legal car. 

Why should be replacing the engine any less illegal than replacing the VIN on a donor body? Just because an engine is easily removed does not make it legal to replace that engine with something better.

I may be mistaken here so someone please correct me on this if I am wrong.

What are you smokin?

"VIN, an acronym for "vehicle identification number," is usually followed by "number," a redundancy hallowed by custom. It's a string of 17 digits and letters posted on the driver's side dashboard, where it can be seen from outside the car. Each VIN number is unique and contains a code that gives considerable information about the vehicle, including country of origin, manufacturer, and model year. The VIN system in its current form has been in use since the 1981 model year."

What you are talking about is having a #'s matching engine, which does have something to do with the VIN, but is not really what this thread is getting at.  You can swap out hundreds of parts on a car, including the entire drivetrain, and the VIN is totally uneffected.  The resale is, but that is another story.
 

The VIN on the dash has a 5 digit sequence code at the end showing what number car was produced in line. They stamped that number on the engine block the radiator core support and trunk lip.

If I understand this thread correctly a rebody would take the VIN tag from the DASH of one car and swap it to another car that it did not come on, basically trying to duplicate that car with a car that it was not.

If it is illegal to swap dash tags because that would be changing the ID of the car then so would swapping engines. Then if you can swap an engine why not the core support? Why not grind the numbers off the engine pad and restamp it with the correct VIN?

The only full VIN numbers are on the dash and a sticker on the drivers side door if you have to change a drivers side door and peel the sticker off and put it on another car is that illegal too?

Because swapping an engine and swapping a body would be the same to me, same numbers are being changed. The 5 digit numbers on the engine can be changed without running afoul of the law then why not changing the 5 digit numbers on a body shell???

[hotrod98]

So, if you have an accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the rear half of the car and two years later, you have another accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the front half of the car, is it the same car?
It's kind of like the guy that claims to own the original hatchet that George Washington used to cut down the cherry tree. Sure, he's changed the handle a few times and the head twice, but it's the same hatchet.

[twilt]

So, if you have an accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the rear half of the car and two years later, you have another accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the front half of the car, is it the same car?
It's kind of like the guy that claims to own the original hatchet that George Washington used to cut down the cherry tree. Sure, he's changed the handle a few times and the head twice, but it's the same hatchet.

  that was 2 funny. 

[Blakcharger440]

So, if you have an accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the rear half of the car and two years later, you have another accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the front half of the car, is it the same car?
It's kind of like the guy that claims to own the original hatchet that George Washington used to cut down the cherry tree. Sure, he's changed the handle a few times and the head twice, but it's the same hatchet.

Now thats funny!   

[Troy]

Part of the VIN is stamped on the engine block, all you guys that have replaced engines with ones taken from other cars and swapped them in your cars are guilty of changing VINS on your car. So logically you need to take out the replacment engine and put the numbers matching block back in for it to be a legal car.

Why should be replacing the engine any less illegal than replacing the VIN on a donor body? Just because an engine is easily removed does not make it legal to replace that engine with something better.

I may be mistaken here so someone please correct me on this if I am wrong.

What are you smokin?

"VIN, an acronym for "vehicle identification number," is usually followed by "number," a redundancy hallowed by custom. It's a string of 17 digits and letters posted on the driver's side dashboard, where it can be seen from outside the car. Each VIN number is unique and contains a code that gives considerable information about the vehicle, including country of origin, manufacturer, and model year. The VIN system in its current form has been in use since the 1981 model year."

What you are talking about is having a #'s matching engine, which does have something to do with the VIN, but is not really what this thread is getting at. You can swap out hundreds of parts on a car, including the entire drivetrain, and the VIN is totally uneffected. The resale is, but that is another story.

The VIN on the dash has a 5 digit sequence code at the end showing what number car was produced in line. They stamped that number on the engine block the radiator core support and trunk lip.

If I understand this thread correctly a rebody would take the VIN tag from the DASH of one car and swap it to another car that it did not come on, basically trying to duplicate that car with a car that it was not.

If it is illegal to swap dash tags because that would be changing the ID of the car then so would swapping engines. Then if you can swap an engine why not the core support? Why not grind the numbers off the engine pad and restamp it with the correct VIN?

The only full VIN numbers are on the dash and a sticker on the drivers side door if you have to change a drivers side door and peel the sticker off and put it on another car is that illegal too?

Because swapping an engine and swapping a body would be the same to me, same numbers are being changed. The 5 digit numbers on the engine can be changed without running afoul of the law then why not changing the 5 digit numbers on a body shell???

Well, according to the law, you are replacing parts when installing an engine or trans - you are NOT changing numbers. If you bought a factory replacement block for your original Hemi car and then stamped some numbers on it to match your VIN then that is illegal. The VIN (the actual tag) is the primary source of identification for a vehicle and is the main thing that is specifically mentioned in the laws of nearly every state. The engine is NOT used to identify the car at all so there certainly is no comparison between swapping the two. Many engines weren't even stamped so how would one possibly identify the car by only inspecting the block? Many engines that actually got a VIN stamped on them had the entire VIN - not a partial but they still cannot be used to identify a vehicle.

Cars in 68 and earlier had the VON stamped on the body panels - not the VIN. Stamping/copying/recreating numbers to match the VIN is also illegal since those numbers would not have existed in the first place. Most people who are swapping numbers are at the very least only doing it to raise the value of an less expensive automobile and at most trying to cover up automobile theft. Neither is being honest with future owners of the car. Money is the reason behind it every time (can anyone honestly say it isn't?).

As for what is illegal - read the laws. It's pointless to ask for opinions here when the law clearly states what is illegal and what isn't. I had a really good post of all of the laws I could find a while back. I'll see if I can dig it up. Suffice it to say that ANY tampering with the VIN on the car is a felony in most states. The only people whose opinions matter are the arresting officer, the prosecuting attorney, and the judge.

FYI - there's usually more than 5 numbers on partial stampings (usually 8 ).

Troy

[HeavyFuel]

So, if you have an accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the rear half of the car and two years later, you have another accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the front half of the car, is it the same car?
It's kind of like the guy that claims to own the original hatchet that George Washington used to cut down the cherry tree. Sure, he's changed the handle a few times and the head twice, but it's the same hatchet.

You finally understand.. 

If the head of the hatchet had the VIN on it....

Explain it to 73dodge.

[694spdRT]

I have had to deal with the VIN# senario on a few salvage title vehicles we have fixed up through the years. In our state when a salvage title vehicle is repaired you must have it reinspected and retitled before it is driven again. The new title will be marked prior salvage.

You are required to take pictures before and after the repairs. Any used parts must be documented with the VIN # from the vehicle they came from and provided to the state inspector before a new title will be granted. I think if new parts are used you just need a receipt for purchase.

I realize that a lot of this is to prevent the chop shop issues but, IMO prior salvage vehicles that are repaired in our state are often in better condition than some of the "clear" title vehicles that have been repaired without any inspection before going back out on the road. There is a "clear" titled '97 Camaro SS running around town that had to be backhalved using a V6 body when it nearly new.....think there will be any record of that in 20 more years.