New cafe standards -- will 35 MPG kill the auto industry??

[Rolling_Thunder]

He promised change, we're getting it. It's called socialism. The whack jobs in Cali.are loving this.

Ummmm   I'm in CA and I say f*** This!   

What will probably happen is something like 75% of vehicles need to meet the 35mpg requirement...     I mean think about it...   no more corvettes, vipers, lambos, aston martins...      It will just be an added tax if your car does not meet the requirements   

[89MOPAR]

    it's supposed to be an average for the car companies entire fleet.

   So if they sell 1000 cars getting  37 mpg each , then they could sell 100 Vipers / Vettes / etc each getting 15 mpg .
    the fleet average over the total 1100 vehicles would still be 35 mpg.

[Neal_J]

Um, the US auto industry is already dead...

[Charger74]

Something for everyone to read that is related to this subject.

http://cei.org/gencon/019,02422.cfm

[Mike DC]

Something for everyone to read that is related to this subject.

http://cei.org/gencon/019,02422.cfm

Interesting read.  But it fails to sway my opinions.  IMHO cars are already safe enough in the big picture.  As a culture we just drive too much. 



Of course people's demands for safety are extremely high these days.  Why wouldn't they be, when it seems like everyone spends 20% of our waking lives behind the wheel? 

But as logical as that impulse for increased safety may be, is safety really the problem that most needs fixing in this scenario?  I don't think so. 

[bakerhillpins]

The more these debates rage on and on, the more I think we should let the auto companies make what ever they can sell and screw the fuel economy standards, but tax the s**t out of fuel (energy) in particular and use it to fund ALL the infrastructure costs, with no exemptions for anyone. Remove all tolls from roads and bridges and all the costs associated with them (personnel and system), everything. You pay by what you burn. And, No, I don't buy the argument it will kill the trucking industry or any other transportation industry. Its just like everything else, its a cost of doing business.

Let the games begin. 

[Ghoste]

An interesting idea that's for sure and one not without merit. 

[Mike DC]

 I've been saying that for years. 


It has been estimated (back in about 2000, before every statistic about oil was automatically so politically charged) that we spend something like $5-15 per gallon burning gas if you really start counting the indirect costs to society. 

[PocketThunder]

A new Henry Ford Starter Carraige is only $2975.  But it only comes in Black.  Brake are optional.. 

http://www.buggy.com/basicblack.html

[bakerhillpins]

A new Henry Ford Starter Carraige is only $2975.  But it only comes in Black.  Brake are optional.. 

http://www.buggy.com/basicblack.html

I'm more concerned about the emissions test.   

[Charger74]

Something for everyone to read that is related to this subject.

http://cei.org/gencon/019,02422.cfm

Interesting read.  But it fails to sway my opinions.  IMHO cars are already safe enough in the big picture.  As a culture we just drive too much. 



Of course people's demands for safety are extremely high these days.  Why wouldn't they be, when it seems like everyone spends 20% of our waking lives behind the wheel? 

But as logical as that impulse for increased safety may be, is safety really the problem that most needs fixing in this scenario?  I don't think so. 

Won't disagree with your opinion, just thought it was interesting.

something for everyone else to consider.  Does anyone know or remember why the Department of Energy was Created?  Should be some fun answer here...

[PocketThunder]

something for everyone else to consider.  Does anyone know or remember why the Department of Energy was Created?  Should be some fun answer here...

wikipedia got me this..  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Energy

it was a result of the 1973 oil embargo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_energy_crisis

[wordslikebullets]

washinton is soooooooooooooo out of touch and is killing the american auto industry... boy sure glad that we got the change we were looking for...

[jamie1974]

   I'm surprised that so many people here are saying things like "we should be driving less", "we should be building smaller cars", "we should be taxing the snot out of gas so people drive less". Aren't there any car nuts in here? Why SHOULD we drive less? I actually enjoy driving (as long as it is a car I like). At the end of the day, I love getting into my 95 Olds 88...nice big car. Spacious inside, nice wide body, cruising down the road as smooth as a country ballad, with the rich scent of the leather upholstery. I love my daily driver!

   So many people seem to be unenthusiastic about driving. To them, it's all about utility. A car, to them, is simply meant to take someone from point A to point B, and nothing more. They're not into the ride. I guess thats fine, for them.

   It's like saying that food is just for consumption. It's not for pleasure. We should all eat steamed fish and chicken, drink water instead of beer or a soda, and shave some vitamin tablets into our salad. (No dressing on that salad, btw!) The government will be telling us to eat like this before too much longer...just wait a couple years! 

   

[Silver R/T]

I really should've looked into Toyota repair training classes at our community college. Seems like they're selling most cars.

[Mike DC]

Many of you regulars already know my rant on this.  I've done it over & over again.  I'll spare you another big dose of it.  



jamie1974 -

If you haven't heard it before, my rant is that I love driving but I hate the continued suburban expansion that it causes.  No more rural countryside and empty windy roads, instead they get paved over with straight-ahead stoplight runs in long traffic.  It's 0mph-40mph-0mph, bumper to bumper, mile after mile.  Even the interstates are practically a traffic jam that's going at 80mph these days.  This is insane.  We're steadily eradicating the opportunities to do any driving that IS fun anymore. 

[jamie1974]

Many of you regulars already know my rant on this.  I've done it over & over again.  I'll spare you another big dose of it.  



jamie1974 -

If you haven't heard it before, my rant is that I love driving but I hate the continued suburban expansion that it causes.  No more rural countryside and empty windy roads, instead they get paved over with straight-ahead stoplight runs in long traffic.  It's 0mph-40mph-0mph, bumper to bumper, mile after mile.  Even the interstates are practically a traffic jam that's going at 80mph these days.  This is insane.  We're steadily eradicating the opportunities to do any driving that IS fun anymore. 

   That makes sense...I can see your point there. It's too bad that telecommuting hasn't become more popular these days...the technology is there, and it would cut down on a lot of the traffic problems. I did it for a while at my job. I saved a fortune in gas, too, as it was during the $4.00/gal gas days. I was saving around $100 in gas alone every month, not to mention not wearing my car down.

   
[/quote]

[Mike DC]

 
IMHO we're in for a growth in all methods of working outside conventional settings.  The info lines are there but they have not yet had the effect they're capable of. 

[PocketThunder]

Many of you regulars already know my rant on this.  I've done it over & over again.  I'll spare you another big dose of it.  



jamie1974 -

If you haven't heard it before, my rant is that I love driving but I hate the continued suburban expansion that it causes.  No more rural countryside and empty windy roads, instead they get paved over with straight-ahead stoplight runs in long traffic.  It's 0mph-40mph-0mph, bumper to bumper, mile after mile.  Even the interstates are practically a traffic jam that's going at 80mph these days.  This is insane.  We're steadily eradicating the opportunities to do any driving that IS fun anymore. 

But Mike, with increased population comes sprawl.  Everyone cant live in the same area over several generations.  I agree, though, that there are plenty of people who move to the outer ring suburbs and drive 40+ miles one way just to have their own "country space" and then they get a neighbor and then they are mad because someone moved in next door.  I'm more of a fan of live where the job is, because i was the guy sitting in traffic jams on the freeway for 17 miles.  Now i'm 9 miles in the opposite direction of traffic and it takes me 12 minutes to get to work.   

[Chad L. Magee]

Many of you regulars already know my rant on this.  I've done it over & over again.  I'll spare you another big dose of it.  



jamie1974 -

If you haven't heard it before, my rant is that I love driving but I hate the continued suburban expansion that it causes.  No more rural countryside and empty windy roads, instead they get paved over with straight-ahead stoplight runs in long traffic.  It's 0mph-40mph-0mph, bumper to bumper, mile after mile.  Even the interstates are practically a traffic jam that's going at 80mph these days.  This is insane.  We're steadily eradicating the opportunities to do any driving that IS fun anymore. 

If you want true "rural countryside and empty windy roads", come on down to western Kansas for a vacation.  We have more of that stuff than most people can stomach at any given time. .......

Back to the topic at hand and a bit of my rant:

Raising the CAFE standards will eventually mean the death of new Vipers/Corvettes/Shelby Mustangs/SRT Challengers/SS Camaros as we know them.  Does it mean that no performance cars will possibly be produced?  No, but they won't be powered by a large, throaty V8 like we like and they might not be RWD.  If the big three can coexist in the business world long enough (a very big if now), I can see them working on a hybrid performance version of a Tesla car, by combining various technologies to fit the demand.  For instance, it would combine fuel/plug in electrical/solar sources together into one package, rather than one or two parts of the equation.  I have been working for the past five years (in my spare time) in designing such a system and I believe it could work if the right materials are used in conjunction with today's technology.  The bad thing about it is that if it made production, certain foreign companies will likely "copy" the design illegally (they don't care about international patents) and then try to resell it back to us more cheaply (with less performance and more defects) than what we can build them for.  Remember, they do not have the same EPA regulations in place that we do, making production costs that much cheaper.  Unfortunately, it will continue to happen with our auto industry until either we stop buying their cars altogether or get tough with enforcing our patents (good luck with that).  That my friends is the real problem we face down the road.......

[Mike DC]

But Mike, with increased population comes increased sprawl.

There are vast swaths of run-down slums & abandoned strip malls in every urban center in the country that suggest otherwise. 

The first half of the town meeting is always about facilitating the next 3 miles of fresh development at the outskirts.  Then the second half of the meeting is taking suggestions about dealing with the 3 miles of older neighborhoods that are decaying farther in.  How long must this go on before we begin to see a connection here?   

[PocketThunder]

But Mike, with increased population comes increased sprawl.

There are vast swaths of run-down slums & abandoned strip malls in every urban center in the country that suggest otherwise. 

The first half of the town meeting is always about facilitating the next 3 miles of fresh development at the outskirts.  Then the second half of the meeting is taking suggestions about dealing with the 3 miles of older neighborhoods that are decaying farther in.  How long must this go on before we begin to see a connection here?   

Agreed.  It is much easier to start with a rust free Southwest car vs a rusty mid west car.

With run down old neighborhoods it takes a lot of poeple to move in and clean things up vs buying new for a few dollars more in the burbs and skipping the restoration part.

[Mike DC]

It is much easier to start with a rust free Southwest car vs a rusty mid west car.

With run down old neighborhoods it takes a lot of poeple to move in and clean things up vs buying new for a few dollars more in the burbs and skipping the restoration part.

Exactly. 

But so what?  There are serious public good issues when it gets as bad as we have let it get.  100% uncontrolled management of our land would also pave over Central Park with apartments & stores.  And we'd have mansions for Tom Cruise & Oprah & Ralph Lauren going up all over Yellowstone.   


Maybe a developer can afford to buy that fresh land outside the city, but that doesn't mean it's in the overall public interest to let him do completely whatever he wants with it. 

[375instroke]

The Chinese manufacturing juggernaut is just waking up and I think the auto industry will take a far bigger beating from them than the misguided do-gooders here.  We gave them all the tools they needed, taught them how to use it and set up the importation/marketing chains for them, everything is in place. 

They have over 1,000,000,000 people there.  That's four times the amount of people we have here.  As their economy grows, so do their wages.  They may be able to sell cars here, but they will be cheap and crappy at first.  If you want something better, you'll buy it.  The Chinese will want better, too, and they will be able to buy American cars with the money they will have.  The biggest problem is going to be energy.  As the cost of that increases, so will the price of goods coming from far off places.  Globalization may start reversing.  Instead of parts being made where labor is cheapest, they will be made closer to where they are sold.

[Ghoste]

I disagree but with an admitted qualifier that I know little actual facts about their country.  I think their wages may rise slightly but as far as I know they still work for a standard that would be considered a human rights abomination in our part of the world.  I think they are a long long way from buying American even if they want them.  Don't forget too, that it is still a communist country with all or most of the economic controls that entails.  If the Chinese government sees their industry losing ground to any import product I do not believe for a second that they will allow that importation to continue.
I also think that you should never ever underestimate the American willingness to buy cheap crappy products.  That is how Chinese industry and Wal Mart got so damned big in the first place.  The cheap and crappy formula for introductory cars has worked well for all of the Asian mfgs so far.  We have always been more than willing to jump into junk to save a few bucks.