Bad times and not buying American, your thoughts?

[1969chargerrtse]

In regards to some comments made on my other Charger thread that we people that own used non American cars, are part of the problem in today's economy, what do you guys think?
I have always owned American cars, but 2 years ago we bought a used Honda Pilot and have no regrets.  My though is I should be allowed in this free country to buy what ever I want, and my own American made cars should be competitive.  I understand I don't live in the car building states, but the fact that I bought a used import has nothing to do with the bad economy.  When I set out to get a car for my wife and kids, for the first time ever I said I don't care who makes it, I want the best car for the money.  It's competition like this that forces our companies to build better cars, from what I've read they are doing a good job.  The economy sucks for many other reasons than Rob owning a used Honda?  Thoughts?   

[Todd Wilson]

Well the Buy American thing is a good thing to do but its almost impossible anymore.   I really dont think the auto makers foreign or domestic have created the economy problem we are in. I think its all the other companies out there that out sourced everything they could. Eliminated jobs and cut costs by having things made over seas.  I think its catching up with us. Theres a point when you dont have any jobs here to provide incomes to buy the goods.  We are not seeing a cut in the price of something that is made overseas.We are paying the same $ for it if it was made here or there. The company is just making for $$$ profit off the goods they sell. 

I am so disgusted with Redwing Boots right now we will use them for an example. Every boot I have bought in the last few years has Made in China on it. The boots are garbage to put it nice.  Yet the price of the boot has not went down and in some cases its went up. They are getting a 130$ pair of boots made in China for 3$ a pair  instead of paying an american to make the boots and have a cost of 50$ in a 130$ pair of boots. I have 2 pairs of identical boots. One made in USA and the Other in China and while they look the same they dont wear the same. Its a fricken joke. Thats just one example.   

If anything the car companies have probably all been competitive enough that they all produce good quality cars.  The Big 3 and the unions have gotton them selves in the mess they are in.  Theres a certain point where you can no longer keep shelling out the $$$$. They both should have worked together years ago to come up with fair contracts.  The Big 3 simply have too much baggage when it comes to expenses. The government should also cut corporate taxes as this is a big problem for corporations. Its been the reason why some of them have left the country entirely.


Todd

[Neal_J]

My two cents:

1. Cars from Detroit suffer from the reputation of inferior quality. 

2. Reputation and reality are really quite different.  I know the Ford I drive daily has every bit the quality of any Honda, Toyota, etc. 

3. The initital cost of that Ford was significantly increased by (a) comparatively much higher U.S. wages and (2) legacy healthcare cost of retirees. 

4. The effect of this is a sticker price of 25-30% higher for U.S.-built car than for a foreign-built car of comparable quality. 

Hence, the fundamental choice for consumers is: (a) buy the more expensive item to keep U.S. workers employed, or (b) use that same $$$ to put my kids through college.  It's the same dilemma whether we're talking cars or laundry baskets from China sold at Wal-Mart (doing what's right for ME vs. doing what's right for society, i.e. YOU).  Most folks, understandably, do what's best for themselves.

Is Rob wrong to buy a Honda Pilot?  Nope, he's doing what's right for him & his family.  Is TufCat wrong to be pissed about folks buying foreign cars?  Nope, he's also just doing what's right for him & his family. 

Economists say that, eventually US wages will sufficiently decrease to meet worldwide wages as they increase.  When equilibrium is reached, jobs will return to the US.  Until then, hold on because it's gonna be a bumpy ride and it's just starting now.

Neal

PS - I bought the Ford used.

[472 R/T SE]

In regards to some comments made on my other Charger thread that we people that own used non American cars, are part of the problem in today's economy, what do you guys think?
I have always owned American cars, but 2 years ago we bought a used Honda Pilot and have no regrets. 

I fail to see what buying used imports has to do with the economy. 

Parts to repair them can't sway it that much.

[mopar_nut_440_6]

Good arguments on both sides.

I can say when I look at used car prices the imports seem to hold there own better than the domestic units and I personally think the imports are better built. This is just my opinion based on what I have seen and driven.  I also have never owned an import but other family members and friends have.

I would rather support any North American companies and do so as much as possible but when my wife and I were looking at getting a car for her a year ago the Honda Accord was the nicest we found in the size and price range followed by Toyota. We decided to keep our gas guzzling truck and since then gas has gone up and we regret that decision. The truck cost us 29000 used two years ago and we currently have it listed for 15000 and are not even getting calls! This is not due to it being domestic but due to the poor economy and gas prices.

[runningman]

Wages of the Big 3 are not much different than those of the foreign automakers in this country.

[1969chargerrtse]

What about the cars and bikes being built in America.  I had a Honda Gold Wing.  It's built in America and has more American parts in it than a Harley.  I know the profits go oversees. but aren't a lot of jobs created here that offset that a bit?  I still feel America stand for freedom, and the freedom to buy what you want from anywhere.  I understand TUFCAT but how many items are non American in his home, and is the issue and attitude of not caring what anyone thinks just because it directly effects him?  If times were good for everyone, everywhere would he care as much?  And no way is this economy because of this subject, did we forget about the greedy banks and all the people given loans for homes they couldn't afford in the first place?  The auto industries is front in center because we Americans love cars, but many other places and things are suffering because of the is WORLD WIDE issue.  Last, let's face it brothers, America creates and builds some of the best things on the planet but we always need  kick in the butt to get there.  Gas went crazy and GM is coming out with the volt, and many companies are following, some good comes out of bad sometimes. 

[bakerhillpins]

Well the Buy American thing is a good thing to do but its almost impossible anymore.   I really dont think the auto makers foreign or domestic have created the economy problem we are in. I think its all the other companies out there that out sourced everything they could. Eliminated jobs and cut costs by having things made over seas.  I think its catching up with us. Theres a point when you dont have any jobs here to provide incomes to buy the goods.  We are not seeing a cut in the price of something that is made overseas.We are paying the same $ for it if it was made here or there. The company is just making for $$$ profit off the goods they sell.

I think the bottom line is profit. Companies are wired to show maximum profits on wall street. Not outstanding products. Its assumed that both go hand in hand but I think recent history has shown its a rare occurrence. Its rare to find a (mostly large) business that ever plans farther ahead than a quarter or cares what happens after the contract is in hand.
 

I am so disgusted with Redwing Boots right now we will use them for an example. Every boot I have bought in the last few years has Made in China on it. The boots are garbage to put it nice.  Yet the price of the boot has not went down and in some cases its went up. They are getting a 130$ pair of boots made in China for 3$ a pair  instead of paying an american to make the boots and have a cost of 50$ in a 130$ pair of boots. I have 2 pairs of identical boots. One made in USA and the Other in China and while they look the same they dont wear the same. Its a fricken joke. Thats just one example.   

I have this issue with just about everything I buy these days. If it has a china stamp on it I figure it has a 3 week life span. I put up lighting around the house this weekend and had to spend at least half my time fixing problems with the product before I could even hang it up. (The ground cable broke off, the fixture itself was racked (bent), and the decorative glass was falling apart at the seams.) This is one of the main reasons why I end up spending so much time doing things for myself (I make my own furniture when I can). It may take my time, but in the end it still costs me less and its done the first time. Rather than being a constant maintenance nuisance until I solve all the problems anyhow.

If anything the car companies have probably all been competitive enough that they all produce good quality cars.  The Big 3 and the unions have gotton them selves in the mess they are in.  Theres a certain point where you can no longer keep shelling out the $$$$. They both should have worked together years ago to come up with fair contracts.  The Big 3 simply have too much baggage when it comes to expenses.

When I was young we owned a bunch of the big 3. The Chevies were particularly cheap and piles of crap. The fords ran and drove well but the techs at the dealers/shops were hacks and made things worse. The Dodge has lots of memories and we drove it into the ground but I don't have much of a memory beyond that. We moved to Honda/Toyota after the Chevies and had good luck with them so we stuck with them. My current Accord runs well and has never left me stranded. But its brakes are a giant POS and there are a few other PITAs. The Toyota Sienna we use to truck the kids has been great. Its all about luck. I don't change until its bad. At that point I can't loose if I try something else. And I can't afford to change just because, I have too many other irons in the fire to mess with something that isn't broke.

The government should also cut corporate taxes as this is a big problem for corporations. Its been the reason why some of them have left the country entirely.

That goes completely back to profits and wall street. For the most part taxes hit PROFITS so investment in people and products that make a company healthy are not taxed. So they leave because they can make more profits which isn't going to help us on the bottom either way. Though in NH the state taxes your business payroll, rather than individual incomes. So they get it anyhow. But man that doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not saying that making a profit is bad, I am saying that it sucks to be stuck with crappy products so that big profits can pad top end salaries because they provided the appearance of a good bottom line.

YMMV

[dodgecharger-fan]

In regards to some comments made on my other Charger thread that we people that own used non American cars, are part of the problem in today's economy, what do you guys think?
I have always owned American cars, but 2 years ago we bought a used Honda Pilot and have no regrets. 

I fail to see what buying used imports has to do with the economy. 

Parts to repair them can't sway it that much.

Only if the other option you'd entertain is used domestic.

Buying anything used takes one sale of a new car off the table.

Not that either is wrong, of course, but that DOES affect the economy. I get what you're saying, though.

Ideally, all cars would disintegrate after 3 years of use and we'd have to buy new ones. That would keep the automakers working, inventories low, and money flowing. Of course, that is absolutely ridiculous, but that's what would make for a good economic model for the automobile industry. Vehicles need to be less of a capital asset and more like a consumable. I don't like that at all and I hope it never happens. That's just what I think needs to happen to "right" everything that includes both "economy" and "automobile" in the same sentence if nothing else changes in the whole equation.


As for the original topic, I really think it's a huge grey area. There are some things you can stick to when you say "buy local" and some things you can't.
I don't think buying an import make that is made in North America is completely wrong. Yes, the profits go overseas, but if they weren't making cars here, where would all those employees be?

I think the bigger problem is any concessions that these foreign makers get when setting up shop here, and continue to get - that the domestic makers do not get. (I don't know the specifics, but the discussion on tariffs is bad enough.) All of those concessions were made so that the foreign companies would build plants and create jobs for North Americans - the idea being that they needed help in order to compete in this market against the domestic automakers. Well, who needs help in this market now? ... and did that assistance to the foreign companies kill the domestic companies? I don't know, but I think it's a good question.

I think that the same "grey area" discussion goes for Walmart. There are some things that are exactly the same no matter where you buy them. If Wally World has them cheaper, then I can't justify not buying them there. That said, I will not drive across town to save a couple of pennies if I can get the same item at the store that I am in right now. It's not worth it. If there are a lot of things that I could save on, then I'm at the wrong store, aren't I?

It comes down to making good choices and, in my opinion, a "buy local" or "spend patriotically" policy is only a guiding principle rather than a hard and fast rule. Given a choice, I would spend a bit more to support domestic manufacturing, but within reason.

[Tilar]

If they would put trade tarriffs in place for countries that do not buy as much from us as we do from them, Our economy would take off like a rocket.

I personally won't buy anything that is not OWNED by American. Honda money still goes to Japan, and so on down the line. I'm not going to put anyone down for owning a honda or toyota or whatever, It's just not my thing.

[mauve66]

If they would put trade tarriffs in place for countries that do not buy as much from us as we do from them, Our economy would take off like a rocket.

I personally won't buy anything that is not OWNED by American. Honda money still goes to Japan, and so on down the line. I'm not going to put anyone down for owning a honda or toyota or whatever, It's just not my thing.

do they even make tvs, dvrs, washing machines, dryers in the us anymore??  i see alot of mexican produce on the shelf at my store too

[mopar_nut_440_6]

What about AMD panels?

[SFRT]

AMerican car companies do not offer decent vehicles. period.

in the last 5 years we have gone shopping for 2 new cars. One a two seater sports car, the other a jeep type 4wd vehicle. In both cases, we looked american first and found nothing of decent quality, performance and especially looks in our price range that satisfied. American interiors are particularly ugly and cheap looking.

In both cases we found Japanese built vehicles that had great looks, great fit and finish and excellent performance as well as functional ghreat looking interiors and all the options we wanted at a good price.

so.instead of an $70,000 corvette with a crappy interior I got a snazzy top of the line 350z with a great interior.

Instead of an underpowered crappy looking fake american jeep with a gross soccer mom interior and no real offroad handling, I got a sterling barebones Toyota FJ with an amazing drivetrain and suspension package. Both vehicles have done everything I wanted and more with ZERO mechanical problems, and in both cases the prices where spot on for what I got.

If any american car company would actually make a decen vehicle, I would buy it. I am not holding my breath.

[dodgecharger-fan]

What about AMD panels?

American company selling product made overseas. Selling some things that you can't get anywhere else.

For me, that falls in to the grey area.

I was shopping for quarter panels just recently, and because of availability, I went with CBD and paid the extra and was happy with the added bonus of buying domestic.

In hindsight, I could have waited for the AMD panels and saved myself some grief. It's NOT grief with CBD or the product. It's grief with Canada customs. My shipment is sitting in a customs warehouse and it seems the only way to get it moving is to drive 2 hours and fill out the paperwork myself. NOT CBD's fault at all, but I could have avoided the grief by ordering from a Canadian distributor of AMD panels.. but it all came down to a choice at the time - much like I was saying above.

[Rolling_Thunder]

If any american car company would actually make a decent vehicle, I would buy it. I am not holding my breath.

Agreed!     The Big three do not deserve to be around - they are purely profit oriented...     Companies like Honda, Toyota, and others have put billions of dollars into advancing their technology and products...    I don't care who you are or what you say - I KNOW from personal experience that Asian import vehicles are of better quality than "domestic made" vehicles....     which is a relative term as most import companies have factories here in the US - and most domestic companies have factories in canada or mexico...     

For the comment of "don't buy Japanese owned vehicles because the money will go back to Japan" - remember that the US economy was rocking and rolling for all these previous years because of tons of FOREIGN INVESTMENTS - about half this country is owned by foreign countries.  So...     this large economic problem is also effecting all these other countries...     when the are happy the US is happy....   


Most of you guys seems to believe that the US is a sole country - but you guys need to realize that all the industrialized nations are tied together economically due to extensive trade.

[BronzeOnSteelies]

I say buy american no excuses.

I just did it, a Saturn Aura XR, which seems to have great fit and finish, etc.
My 1999 Bonneville is still running strong and looking good.

Just don't buy a first year model.

Mark

[Neal_J]

What kills me is the standard Detroit response that the auto industry's woes are all the consumer's fault.

Yea, that's right guys, blame the customers.  That's the ticket!

[Hudson Hornet !]

I have been reading this thread and have been reluctant to reply, but the time has come. To all of those here that think domestic cars are inferior, you can take off those rose colored glasses. Anything mechanical can have problems, and I have seen my fair share of imports in my shop needing just as much work as domestics. To the people that think buying foreign vehicles made in the U.S. is okay, please discuss that with our own autoworkers that have lost their jobs. To those same people that talk about Foriegn entities buying American companies and the like, You are happy about that?!! I take it that we are now supposed to be a nation of people who are owned by someone else? That it is okay to watch our country being sold out left and right in the pursuit of the almighty dollar? I am an American and I love the place of my birth, and that means that I believe in this country, the products we make, and the folks who produce them. For you people who will surely have a problem with what I said, remember that I also am allowed to speak my mind, and I do have an opinion that counts. It seems to me these days that anyone who stands up for domestic automakers is automatically wrong. Well, I'm glad I'm not as "enlightened" as the naysayers.

[Shakey]

Anyone here know where I can buy a North American made computer to use to log onto the internet to gripe about what's made in North America and what is not?   

When it comes to purchasing products, whether it be a car, a computer, a pair of shoes or anything else for that matter - people need to think with their heads and not with their hearts!   

[bull]

I think part of the reason the US economy is in trouble is because of the overall debt mentality, which plays right into the hands of new car sales. Between subprime mortgage lending and shady auto loan practices for more than the borrower can afford, people cannot stay afloat when something goes a little bit haywire, like $4/gallon gas or a leak in the roof.

Whether domestic cars are inferior or not is irrelevant IMO because many of these people shouldn't be buying new cars anyway. And what's domestic? They make Toyotas and Hondas in the US and Dodges in Mexico, so...

[Kevin69RTvert]

The buy American philosophy worked a long, long time ago when trade, shipping, communication, etc were very different or non-existent. It is now a global economy, and with regards to the auto industry, a much more competitive market where the 15 model brands, and overlapping models within a conglomerate just don't work.

GM doesn't need a compact, mid size and full size Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac. Chrysler doesn't need 3 models each of a Dodge and Chrysler mini-van. Ford has overlapping models within Ford, Lincoln and Merc.

They need to get rid of the redundant models. Have a entry and mid level Dodge mini-van. Call the top level a Chrysler. All brands can streamline and there has been talk of it, but it needs to be done sooner rather than later.

As for industries outside of the auto market, I see a lot of blame put on the manufacturers who go overseas. What I never hear brought up is the real reason why. The stores you buy from make it just about impossible to do anything but import. Bed, Bath & Beyond, Walmart, Target, KMART, Home Depot, Lowes...etc.

I work for a company that designs, imports and distributes home goods. Bathroom accessories. We used to manufacture some goods in house. We just can't do that anymore.

The stores we all shop at, tell the manufacturers what they'll pay. With so few stores out there anymore, the small manufactures, (and there are many more small ones than large) either have to bow to the only customers out there, or lose the business.

I saw this 15 years ago when my then girlfriend, now wife worked summers at a stereo, speaker manufacturer in NY. Her job at the time was to take off the "Made in China" sticker and put on an "Assembled in USA" sticker for all Wal-Mart orders. It was bad then and has just gotten worse over time. Those store demand cheaper.

I always hear a bad rap against the manufacturers with terms like greedy, un-American, but what most people don't know is what it takes to be a supplier to the big stores, which in reality, is all there is left to sell to. As a vendor we get told how must we have to sell an item for, we have our hands tied by the factories in China, the shipping lines, the ports, the brokers, the carriers. All this to sell an item for very little profit which then gets eaten up by the charge backs from the stores we sell to, which then we have to spend time to prove we were in compliance all along. If you ever see the markup that these store charge for an item it would make you sick. I've seen some orders for as much as a 300% markup from what we sell it for.

Sorry for the rant. I obviously can't speak for other manufacturers out there, but I have worked for the same company for 20 years. A VERY good company, but a very small company, that does business with all the big name stores. I see the time and effort that goes into importing a product, dealing with the factories, the delays, the cancel dates, the charge backs and all the goes with it.

It's actually a wonder that any small companies exist anymore....and in a few years importers will go the way of the mom and pop stores that actually cared what they sold.

-Kevin

[derailed]

The way I look at it, good luck finding anything thats TRUELY American made anymore inluding the cars. Like Todd I shelled out a good chunk of Red Wing boots that I liked and were very comfirtable. Within months they were falling apart at the threads. Pretty disheartining. For the last 10 years ive been proudly driving Toyotas built here in the US. People say well the money they get goes back to Japan. Well some of it does rightfully so. But its also going to the assembly workers who happen to live here as well as the other aspects like a tax base.

[Mike DC]

GM doesn't need a compact, mid size and full size Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac. Chrysler doesn't need 3 models each of a Dodge and Chrysler mini-van. Ford has overlapping models within Ford, Lincoln and Merc.

They need to get rid of the redundant models. Have a entry and mid level Dodge mini-van. Call the top level a Chrysler. All brands can streamline and there has been talk of it, but it needs to be done sooner rather than later.

The CAFE rules have been encouraging this kind of overexpansion of the product line for the last couple of decades.  The game is to lose money on 3 econoboxes just to make it back on one big truck.




Honestly I'm not sure I mind this, at least in some aspects.  

The working & poor class public needs cheap workable transportation just as badly as they need low-income housing.  It'll take the socioeconomic researchers another few decades to figure this out and start writing books/papers about it, but it's already true in most of the suburban & rural areas of the country.  Mechanically capable guys like us have a way of forgetting what it's like when you can't afford to even keep a crummy beater running.  You're making $7.50/hr and you have to pay a shop $750 every time you need new pads & rotors.

I wouldn't mind seeing the cheap econobox market just be publicly subsidized somehow.  It would beat the govt telling Detroit what they can't build across the whole lineup with tighter corporate-averaged CAFE limits. 

It's idiotic that something so necessary as cheap transportation has been rendered so expensive at the minimum level.  Imagine if the military couldn't get Hummer costs down to normal, because AM General kept clean-sheet redesigning the thing every 4 years just to add on some more expensive & unnecessary options.

[472 R/T SE]

In regards to some comments made on my other Charger thread that we people that own used non American cars, are part of the problem in today's economy, what do you guys think?
I have always owned American cars, but 2 years ago we bought a used Honda Pilot and have no regrets. 

I fail to see what buying used imports has to do with the economy. 

Parts to repair them can't sway it that much.

Only if the other option you'd entertain is used domestic.

Buying anything used takes one sale of a new car off the table.

Not that either is wrong, of course, but that DOES affect the economy. I get what you're saying, though.

I can understand that.  Buying something used instead of new might have an impact.

But how I understand Rob's post is the fact buying a used import has the same impact as per say a new one.  That I don't see.  And in two pages worth I guess I'm the only one. 

The purchase price of a new import goes overseas.  Used goes into the local economy & you end up with the perception you sold out by buying it new.

[skip68]

The thing that I found to be sad is I heard that GM was loosing 20,000+ jobs due to the shut down of Pontiac.      So, GM gets bailout money but what do the 20,000+ workers get that loose jobs ?      We spend BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars a year to countries that could care less about us and yet we are in some real trouble and WE (the tax payers) have to foot the bill.  I say if you want to buy from other countries fine, but we need to tax the hell out of the import auto's coming in.         I'm sure all the imports are looking at this as great news for them.  The more American car companies fail, the better for them.  You know the imports will take advantage of this and drop prices and come out with more appealing models.  It's business, and when your competition is in trouble you sweep in and grab more customers.           I guess time will tell.     One more thing.   I know for a fact that lots of these American workers DON'T drive American cars.  I would love to see someone go to a plant like GM and count the cars in the parking lot that are imports.          Or, do a list for all the employees to fill out, listing the cars they own.       Sorry, I mean no harm in this but just to show that this is how it is.     

[Mike DC]

We spend BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars a year to countries that could care less about us and yet we are in some real trouble and WE (the tax payers) have to foot the bill.

Agreed.  The cost of 20,000 Pontiac jobs is shite right now.  There will probably be 100x that much money MISPLACED before the financial industry bailouts are finished.

I say if you want to buy from other countries fine, but we need to tax the hell out of the import auto's coming in.

We literally don't have the power to wanna start leveling the playing field with China & Japan.  The two of them already owned a couple trillion bucks in US debt before the economic crash & bailouts, let alone now.  If they dump any of that cash onto the open market, we're toast. 

China & Japan are still willing to loan us daily operating money simply because we spend so much of it on their countries. 

[Silver R/T]

Problem is with companies laying off people instead of keeping them and pay them a little lower wages. Many Americans don't want to work for low wages though. There should be regulation on what comes in from other countries. There should be laws against speculators.

[runningman]

The thing that I found to be sad is I heard that GM was loosing 20,000+ jobs due to the shut down of Pontiac.      So, GM gets bailout money but what do the 20,000+ workers get that loose jobs ?      We spend BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars a year to countries that could care less about us and yet we are in some real trouble and WE (the tax payers) have to foot the bill.  I say if you want to buy from other countries fine, but we need to tax the hell out of the import auto's coming in.         I'm sure all the imports are looking at this as great news for them.  The more American car companies fail, the better for them.  You know the imports will take advantage of this and drop prices and come out with more appealing models.  It's business, and when your competition is in trouble you sweep in and grab more customers.           I guess time will tell.     One more thing.   I know for a fact that lots of these American workers DON'T drive American cars.  I would love to see someone go to a plant like GM and count the cars in the parking lot that are imports.          Or, do a list for all the employees to fill out, listing the cars they own.       Sorry, I mean no harm in this but just to show that this is how it is.     

Not entirely accurate, last I checked there were two or three foreign auto's in our lot and they are junk 

[Shakey]

The stores we all shop at, tell the manufacturers what they'll pay.

Precisely - and the consumers are always demanding lower prices from the stores.

We've done it to ourselves!   

[1969chargerrtse]

The thing that I found to be sad is I heard that GM was loosing 20,000+ jobs due to the shut down of Pontiac.      So, GM gets bailout money but what do the 20,000+ workers get that loose jobs ?      We spend BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars a year to countries that could care less about us and yet we are in some real trouble and WE (the tax payers) have to foot the bill.  I say if you want to buy from other countries fine, but we need to tax the hell out of the import auto's coming in.         I'm sure all the imports are looking at this as great news for them.  The more American car companies fail, the better for them.  You know the imports will take advantage of this and drop prices and come out with more appealing models.  It's business, and when your competition is in trouble you sweep in and grab more customers.           I guess time will tell.     One more thing.   I know for a fact that lots of these American workers DON'T drive American cars.  I would love to see someone go to a plant like GM and count the cars in the parking lot that are imports.          Or, do a list for all the employees to fill out, listing the cars they own.       Sorry, I mean no harm in this but just to show that this is how it is.     

That's already been done.  There is a website somewhere that went to GM and did just that, they showed all the Import cars in the Gm executive lot. 

[skip68]

Really ?  I didn't know that.      I would imagine that most the cars at the GM parking lot were imports.  Can you post that site ?      So then how can they expect us to support something that they don't ? 

[71green go]

Not so surprising that the workers at a plant don't buy the product......they see what crap goes on inside of the assembly plant and it turns them off the product...ask a guy that works at a hot dog plant....they will tell ya they will never eat a hot dog!...cause they see what goes in it..

As far as raising the import taxes so Foreign cars are more $$$....that's crazy, are you thinking by forcing people to buy an American product because the foreign cars are too much.......now that's really fair making me buy something I don't really want...simple build a great product and I Joe consumer will buy it

Lets look at some GM vehicles...how would you rate them

Sunfire...I rate 5 out of 10
Blazer.... maybe maybe a 6 out of 10
caviler...same as sunfire
grand am...or any other vehicle on the same platform......6 out of 10
Firebird......6.5 out of 10

I owned each one of these and was very unhappy with the blown head gaskets/electrical problems/power windows/Wheel bearings/rotor warpage..creaks/leaks...you name it

I have now bought a Mazda Tribute...loved it.......Mazda protoge 5....loved it...Mazda pickup(Ranger in disguise)...loved it...and now I own a 2008 Mazda 3 GT sport...LOVE IT......and we bought a 2007 mustang 4.0  very nice, no problems

The ford relationship with Mazda has been great with the vehicles I have owned...my Mazda 3 is an amazing little car(its all Japanese).....ALL of the GM vehicles I have bought new have had many issues..I will not buy GM again, they did this to themselves I gave them numerous chances to impress me...the quality with fit and finish was not there...

And anyone that says I am hurting the North American economy buy not buying a piece of crap......there is also a fortune in taxes and import tariffs/dealership taxes/landtaxes/salesman income taxes etc that North America is getting out of me buying a foreign car..it does allot still to stimulate the economy..

Don't let pride blind you...you can accept inferior crap..or force them to compete in quality

[Khyron]

I know the profits go oversees.

that right there ends this thread for me, Thats why I buy american.... when I can... plain and simple.

and when I can is any time I buy a car...My wife almost bought a nissian... I put a FAST stop to that, and she's ahppy as hell with her little ION.

[derailed]

I say if you want to buy from other countries fine, but we need to tax the hell out of the import auto's coming in.  

I agree, this should also pertain to any "american made car" that is built outisde the us or at least knock a few pesos off the price.

[68charger383]

I think part of the reason the US economy is in trouble is because of the overall debt mentality, which plays right into the hands of new car sales. Between subprime mortgage lending and shady auto loan practices for more than the borrower can afford, people cannot stay afloat when something goes a little bit haywire, like $4/gallon gas or a leak in the roof.

I think the current situation all stems from the oil crisis. When oil shot up, everything else seemed to quickly go to hell.

The auto industry tanked in the US since they built SUVs and trucks. Once gas hit $3 they couldn't sell one and had only one or two gas efficient vehicles to offer vs. the numerous high mileage gas and hybrid cars being offered from the foreign producers.  Hell, GM and Chrysler still do not have any hybrids for sale? Toyota is going onto their third generation Prius.

Once oil prices went up, prices on everything else went up or had a fuel surcharge. The extra $100-$300/mo in gas costs ate up people's monthly disposable income which hit every other industry and economic sector in the economy and caused what we now see.  People live to the end of their limits and do not save, so that extra $ and cost for oil stopped them from paying debt, going to dinner, buying stuff etc.

Sad thing, they let up after they saw what they did to the global economy. But its going to come back again. slowly but surely, it will be coming back. 

[Brock Samson]

I think part of the reason the US economy is in trouble is because of the overall debt mentality, which plays right into the hands of new car sales. Between subprime mortgage lending and shady auto loan practices for more than the borrower can afford, people cannot stay afloat when something goes a little bit haywire, like $4/gallon gas or a leak in the roof.

I think the current situation all stems from the oil crisis. When oil shot up, everything else seemed to quickly go to hell.

The auto industry tanked in the US since they built SUVs and trucks. Once gas hit $3 they couldn't sell one and had only one or two gas efficient vehicles to offer vs. the numerous high mileage gas and hybrid cars being offered from the foreign producers.  Hell, GM and Chrysler still do not have any hybrids for sale? Toyota is going onto their third generation Prius.

Once oil prices went up, prices on everything else went up or had a fuel surcharge. The extra $100-$300/mo in gas costs ate up people's monthly disposable income which hit every other industry and economic sector in the economy and caused what we now see.  People live to the end of their limits and do not save, so that extra $ and cost for oil stopped them from paying debt, going to dinner, buying stuff etc.

Sad thing, they let up after they saw what they did to the global economy. But its going to come back again. slowly but surely, it will be coming back. 

  Well,.. actually they do offer hybreds, though chrysler just withdrew the aspen and durrango models
Chevy has the Malibu and ford  the fusion which are quite competitive with the accord/Camry theycompete against
Chevy and GM also offers SUV hybrids, and the Chevy volt is due out soon and is a true plug in hybrid and though it looks like absolute crap compared to the show car they teased everyone with, it is state of the art and will form the basis of many new plug in derrivitive hybrids for the General...

  But beyond this and more to the point, I suspect the real culprit here is folks living way above their means and though certainly encouraged to do so by banks and new car dealers - no one held a gun to their heads and made them buy a Hummer to go in that new Las Vegas two car garage they bought with no thought to the looming balloon payment or the eventual rising cost of gasoline.
Besides which,  our Govt. flying a C-5a load of  Benjimens over to the big sandlot where they were somehow mislaid  didn't exactly help things.



And BTW: this time last year,..  gas here was approaching $5.oo per gallon. 
that'll sure hurt anyone who commutes or trucks their goods.
it's bound to be back to even higher levels about the time you want to hit the road this summer.

[Mike DC]

But beyond this and more to the point, I suspect the real culprit here is folks living way above their means and though certainly encouraged to do so by banks and new car dealers - no one held a gun to their heads and made them buy a Hummer to go in that new Las Vegas two car garage they bought with no thought to the looming balloon payment or the eventual rising cost of gasoline.
Besides which,  our Govt. flying a C-5a load of  Benjimens over to the big sandlot where they were somehow mislaid   didn't exactly help things.

A whole culture living beyond its means.  It started there. 



A lot of money never just disappears in the econommic market.  A "bursting bubble" just means the lost money was never more than imagined in the first place. 

The baby boomer generation grew up never knowing anything but a world of eternal economic growth & upward lifestyle mobility.  Then 1974-1982(ish) happened.  Reagan falsely restored the working & middle class's sense of normalcy by borrowing away the problem but it wasn't getting fixed.  Everyone in Washington since then has just dug the hole deeper.  Corporate America didn't care because it could just become Corporate World and profit from the problem.


It's 2009 and the bubble has finally burst.

[1969chargerrtse]

Really ?  I didn't know that.      I would imagine that most the cars at the GM parking lot were imports.  Can you post that site ?      So then how can they expect us to support something that they don't ? 

I saw it on the news on T.V they showed a video shot of the imports in the GM Boss's lots and mentioned some internet site that did it?

[chargerkid01]

here is a good one for you sit back and think, How much was your charger new back in the 60s and 70s?? Why are we paying so much more today for a car that is made from plastic, can't be worked on without a computer, and are so ugly it is not funny. It is the same with trucks (excpet the ugly part with the 2010 ram)I don't follow the economy as well as I should but I know enough to see what is wrong. Don't get me wrong I know back then Those prices was a lot of money, what I'm getting at is we had better quality car for less.

[72chargerSE]

I believe this has the earmarks of a political discussion and should be locked.

[chargerkid01]

na I was just complaining about the prices of cars!!!

[Brock Samson]

  I have allways made a concerted effort to buy American,..  all my vehicles were made here unless you consider the fact that my 300 M LH series was built just north of the border,.. in Brampton Ontario, and while I'm addressing that,.. tying it to the "Quality Question,  I'd stack my M against any front wheel drive 6 Cly. made since it was built in 1999,..
I haven't yet found any thing I want to replace it with, simply put it's a keeper and ten years after first sold it's still getting daily compliments for it's style, features and performance.
Foresight isn't a requirement in life, but it helps one survive, my parents taught me you need to look both ways before crossing he street and not to crap where you eat.
Now some things I buy are indeed imported, a couple of my guitars are cheaper then the American versions, the PRS is from japan and my newest used Stratocaster is Mexican made but i didn't buy them new the PRS was a trade and the Strat was a 150.oo Flea Market deal...
Now, understand, I absolutely take every advantage to save when making purchases I wouldn't buy a brand new car -  I'd buy a carefully chosen lease return and not take a huge deprecation hit. or pay $1,300 for a new American made Strat when I can put $300 worth of Seymour Duncan pickups in my flea market find and save $850.oo.
But some folks are in a different (read higher) economic income level and can afford to buy a new muscle car every year, or a M-6 they'll never pop the hood on but I can say everything I have is paid for, I've never bought anything unless I had the cash, with only a couple exceptions, most notably I paid off the loan on the M in four years (which cost $5K) and the chargers $10K paint job in three.
but those were the exceptions. i try to benefit the local community while thinking globally...
A man's gotta know his limitations... 
and this isn't political, it's an economic debate.

[mauve66]

everybody is bitching cause the auto makers made too many trucks and suv's, they made them cause thats what the american buyer wanted!!!  at one time the ram accounted for more than half of chryslers sales, they built what we wanted, no your bitchin cause they don't have any hybrids?? until the Prius came out you couldn't give away those cars, as a matter of fact several years ago toyota or honda, whoever it was had to terminate all the leases they had on their electric cars and junk them due to warranty issues and the fact that no one would buy the rest of them sitting on the lot.

when gas went above $4 gal we stopped buying trks and suv's but we didn't start buy Priuses, we just stopped buying trucks, but the people that want trks DON'T want a Prius

[Mike DC]

everybody is bitching cause the auto makers made too many trucks and suv's, they made them cause thats what the american buyer wanted!!!  at one time the ram accounted for more than half of chryslers sales, they built what we wanted, no your bitchin cause they don't have any hybrids??

Yeah, but the OEMs just assuming that everyone in America could keep buying & driving 9mpg trucks/SUVs indefinitely?  That was not sustainable and they were idiots not to see it coming a decade away. 


The truck/SUV boom has been a 15-year-long free cash handout to Detroit.  They could have spent that money preparing for the future instead of using it to tell themselves they weren't in trouble anymore.   

 
 

[Lowprofile]

My wife and I have always tried to buy "American" when we could. Its hard to these days, and sometimes impossible. This past December, we went car/suv shopping. I was looking at a Tahoe, while my wife wanted a Jeep Wrangler.......we got neither. Couldn't get the deal we wanted with either company/dealer. What we ended up with is s Nissan Titan. We got it at a great price, a good rate, a bunch of extras & a great warranty. I have to tell you, I am very impressed with this truck. Supercharged, fuel injected, aluminum V-8, 5-Speed Auto 4x4.....10,000lbs towing capacity, boxed frame, etc...  Its like a Lexus inside, Leather heated power seats, onboard GPS, Rockford-fosgate stereo w 10 speakers......anyways, its got everything! Best of all, my wife loves it!

It was built in America, by Americans.....does that count?

[richRTSE]

I have to tell you, I am very impressed with this truck. Supercharged, fuel injected, aluminum V-8...

Supercharged? Is that a factory option or did you add that? I thought the only engine is 5.6?

The 2008 Nissan Titan only provides one engine option. The Titan's engine is an Endurance 5.6-liter V8 with 317 horsepower and 385 pound-feet of torque -- and reviewers couldn't be happier-except when it comes time to get gas. Both the rear-wheel and all-wheel drive Titan rate at 12 miles per gallon in the city and 17 mpg on the highway, according to the Environmental Protection Agency's ratings.

[skip68]

    Nice truck LowPro   

[Tilar]

I think the current situation all stems from the oil crisis. When oil shot up, everything else seemed to quickly go to hell.

The auto industry tanked in the US since they built SUVs and trucks. Once gas hit $3 they couldn't sell one and had only one or two gas efficient vehicles to offer vs. the numerous high mileage gas and hybrid cars being offered from the foreign producers.  Hell, GM and Chrysler still do not have any hybrids for sale? Toyota is going onto their third generation Prius.

Once oil prices went up, prices on everything else went up or had a fuel surcharge. The extra $100-$300/mo in gas costs ate up people's monthly disposable income which hit every other industry and economic sector in the economy and caused what we now see.  People live to the end of their limits and do not save, so that extra $ and cost for oil stopped them from paying debt, going to dinner, buying stuff etc.

Sad thing, they let up after they saw what they did to the global economy. But its going to come back again. slowly but surely, it will be coming back. 

Ding Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner. Sad thing is the government could have done something about this years ago but they wouldn't. But not to worry, The liberal extremists and the idiot we have running our country will finish off any chance we had of a "come back".

I believe this has the earmarks of a political discussion and should be locked.

Now it has the earmarks of a political discussion.

[Mike DC]

Ding Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner. Sad thing is the government could have done something about this years ago but they wouldn't. But not to worry, The liberal extremists and the idiot we have running our country will finish off any chance we had of a "come back".

Yes, I don't know why Obama & the liberals won't just put more oil reserves in the ground.   

 

[Tilar]

Ding Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner. Sad thing is the government could have done something about this years ago but they wouldn't. But not to worry, The liberal extremists and the idiot we have running our country will finish off any chance we had of a "come back".

Yes, I don't know why Obama & the liberals won't just put more oil reserves in the ground.   

 

That's not the problem, we have plenty of oil. The problem is them stopping us from drilling in places that have been proven to have plenty of oil. He changed his mind and campaigned that he was all for offshore drilling and now that he's in office he decided that he's not for it again. Imagine that. 

[Mike DC]

 
I just wanna say this point one time in this discussion - we don't have "plenty of oil in the ground."  Not like what we need. 


I totally agree, we should be pumping Anwar and the north american offshort stuff and anything else we can.  But the problem is that it will hardly make a dent in the ultimate supply problem even if we do. 

The natural resources are in the earth but getting them out is another story.  Much of the huge remaining reserves of oil will be longer & more difficult fields to pump than what we're used to.  We can't just throw more money or man-hours at this problem and make it go away.    Getting consistent oil flowing from a field is an achievement that takes huge (and ongoing) engineering work to sustain.  It's not like unplugging the drain on a bathtub. 
   

[Tilar]

We do have plenty of oil in the ground. Gull Island and Anwar in alaska, Bakken reserve in the dakotas, There are wells capped due to our government not allowing us to use our own oil. We have one gas and oil well on our farm that is capped and the drillers claims there are at least two more but we can't do anything with it due to our government sticking their nose in the private sectors business.  And with the way it's gone in the last 100 days, It's getting a lot worse. Yeah, It's there, They just don't want us to drill unless it's election year.

[aone415]

Since 1998 I've owned 4 new cars, all Fords (98, 01 and 04 Expeditions and a 2008 Edge) and I've never had a problem with any of them.  Everyone else in my family drives Acuras and Inifinitis and are equally impressed by their quality.  THe problem that US auto makers are facing is NOT about quality, although the media will tell you different.  The problem was simply supply vs. demand and the bastardizion of the "free Market" concept. 

As mentioned in the thread already, US auto makers spent much of their R&D, marketing, labor and factories to produce Full Sized trucks and SUV's without really putting together any longterm plans regarding smaller sedans and coupes.  They never produced alternatives to a Bimmer 3 series, Acura TSX & TL, Infiniti G series, Mercedes C Class, etc.  With the exception of Caddy, no US marque ever really decided to make a better benz or lexus and as a result they slowly lost their market share to foreign brands.  Sure the Taurus was the #1 selling car in the US for years, but Ford never really improved on it, they never took the good things that Honda, Toyota had and then integrated them into their winning models and that was a problem.  Instead we made the biggest (and best) Pickups and SUVs known to man without a backup plan and once oil eclipsed $80 a barrel - GAME OVER - because there was nothing in the pipeline that was a known entity to the consumer...

[Mike DC]

We do have plenty of oil in the ground. Gull Island and Anwar in alaska, Bakken reserve in the dakotas, There are wells capped due to our government not allowing us to use our own oil. We have one gas and oil well on our farm that is capped and the drillers claims there are at least two more but we can't do anything with it due to our government sticking their nose in the private sectors business.  And with the way it's gone in the last 100 days, It's getting a lot worse. Yeah, It's there, They just don't want us to drill unless it's election year.

Gull Island?  I see little reason to think that's any more than a conspiracy story.  Some of the same kinds of websites that pass that story around also insist that a "fish carburetor" has been able to get 100mpg for decades.


Bakken reserve, Anwar . . .  still not much in the worldwide scale.  Probably not even enough to offset the coming production declines in existing fields by the time they're running.  You can't empty out an oilfield overnight, and it all just goes onto the worldwide market when it does get pumped.  Contributions from a few more oilfields are not gonna change our lives much unless somebody finds a previously unknown Ghawar-sized field. 

[Tilar]

Probably not even enough to offset the coming production declines in existing fields by the time they're running.

Therein lies the problem everyone bitches about. Nobody in government wants to drill. Ever. There is plenty of oil out on the coast but they don't want to drill. Hell, China is down near Cuba drilling oil now.  Our government won't drill untill everything we have now has dried up, and then we'll still be 10 years getting back up to par and off of foreign oil.

[Brock Samson]

 great hijack tilar. 

[Tilar]

Sorry, I just get real passionate when it comes to anything that hurts our country as a whole.... and everything this thread is about hits that sore spot. Didn't mean to hijack it.

[Mike DC]

Therein lies the problem everyone bitches about. Nobody in government wants to drill. Ever. There is plenty of oil out on the coast but they don't want to drill. Hell, China is down near Cuba drilling oil now.  Our government won't drill untill everything we have now has dried up, and then we'll still be 10 years getting back up to par and off of foreign oil.

"Plenty of oil" out there?

Compare those finds to what the world burns daily, yearly, etc.  Then figure in the EROI numbers of extracting that oil.  Then figure in the realistic steady long-term pumping rate we're likely to see.  The impact gets pretty damn small even if we were working flat-out on developing these finds. 

I agree that it's totally worth it to get started developing these fields, but it's not gonna change the basic issues we're dealing with.


-------------------------------------------------


I'll quit soaping on the oil issue now.

     

[SFRT]

personally the minute they open an E85 station here im switching. 110 octane? YES. right now the closest station is 60 miles away.

[472 R/T SE]

According to this there's only enough oil at the Bakken formation for a year using the rate of us importing 10 million barrels a day.

The Green River formation is suppose to hold 1.5 to 1.8 trillion barrels but it's a shale.  To get that shale out of the ground creates substantial air pollution & carbon emissions & leaves toxic byproducts that could endanger the environment.  The whacko's will never let that happen.




When I worked in the patch most of our rigs only went down around 2500-2800 feet.  That could be done in around 5 days.  If a pulling unit would come in right away and set rods & tubing and then a pumping unit right after that, oil could be at the big tanks in less than a month.

Getting the oil on the market most likely wouldn't affect the price since OPEC countries would cut back exporting to keep the price where they want it.  There's been what, two or three meetings where they cut production to get the price back up. 

It's almost like you're pissin' in the wind if you think oil will stay cheap.  OPEC will just keep cutting production.

[Mike DC]

According to this there's only enough oil at the Bakken formation for a year using the rate of us importing 10 million barrels a day.

The Green River formation is suppose to hold 1.5 to 1.8 trillion barrels but it's a shale.  To get that shale out of the ground creates substantial air pollution & carbon emissions & leaves toxic byproducts that could endanger the environment.  The whacko's will never let that happen.

It doesn't take greenie-whackos to stop us from developing most of the shale oil deposits.  The majority of it is just not commerically viable and probably never will be.



 

When I worked in the patch most of our rigs only went down around 2500-2800 feet.  That could be done in around 5 days.  If a pulling unit would come in right away and set rods & tubing and then a pumping unit right after that, oil could be at the big tanks in less than a month.

Yeah, but it's the volumes that are the problem.  There might be 3 years (of USA's demand) of oil under somewhere, but it still might take us 15+ years of pumping just to get all that oil out of the ground.  The amount of steady daily production from these sites won't have effect on in worldwide production in any given year. 

Getting the oil on the market most likely wouldn't affect the price since OPEC countries would cut back exporting to keep the price where they want it.  There's been what, two or three meetings where they cut production to get the price back up. 

It's almost like you're pissin' in the wind if you think oil will stay cheap.  OPEC will just keep cutting production.

I think OPEC's reserves are probably way overstated in total.  Iran & SA are probably looking for excuses to rest their fields a little.  It's not gonna be pretty if this is true and it becomes more apparent. 

[472 R/T SE]

The only reason I even jumped in this was because you said something about how time consuming it was to get oil out of the ground and onto the market.  And that I respectfully disagree with.

Now I can't find it.  Did you edit it?  I guess I should have QFT like you did.

Yes I agree it takes volumes but 20 years ago the gubment was restricting how much the pumping units could pull out of the ground & I'm pretty sure they're still doing it.

[Mike DC]

 
I don't remember re-editing anything back there unless it was moments after I originally posted it. 

I never tried to defend these arguments about "we won't even see any of the oil for 10 years."  Because I don't believe them either.  If I ever did appear to defend that viewpoint then it was purely a bad phrasing of my words. 




But I have been trying to say that finding a site with XXX total amount of oil reserves in the ground won't give us XXX amount of oil in total to use any time soon.  I'm saying we could start the bathtub flowing reasonably quickly, but that doesn't mean we'll get a very big stream flowing (relative to the size of the tub).  Look at the most productive oilfields on the earth, and most of them have already been pumping for years & decades up to now. 

In general, drilling a new field with "3 years of oil" can be expected to do very little for our oil shortage problems during the next 3 years after the day the pumps start.


 

I agree, let's pump more domestically!  We should!  We need to! 

But if we're facing a (political) choice between drilling a few more domestic oilfields (with no real shift away from oil dependency) versus starting to cut back oil usage & starting to redesign our whole energy policy (without drilling more domestically) . . . I'm arguing that we'll be A WHOLE LOT better off going in the latter direction right now.  It's just a matter of about the raw numbers involved in the problem.