Should Dodge have built a 70 Daytona?

[Ghoste]

Big Block Sam had this pic posted in the thread on picking a Daytona color and it got me thinking.  I've seen pics in magazines of 70 Daytonas that other people had created but this one looks really good (sorry but the Watermelon and the purple one are a little too garish for me).  How many think the 1970 would have made a better street Daytona?  The light up marker lights, the "aerodynamic" scoop on the door, Hemi badge moved to the front, sleeker high back buckets.  Would it have outsold the Superbird in 1970 or languished as well?

[hotrod98]

As much as I love my '69, I have always loved the seats and door scoops on the '70's. I never did like the wrap around bumper all that much, but never actually hated it either. Of course, with the daytona nose that would not have been an issue anyway. I think that it would have been great if they had built a couple of thousand '70's. Maybe I could have afforded a real one if they had.

[Charger_Fan]

Would it have outsold the Superbird in 1970 or languished as well?

I bet it would have languished too. Back then, most people thought the wing cars were fraking hideous. A lot of the Superbirds the dealers practically had to give away...some Daytona's too, for that matter.
So, although I do agree with you on your points of why it's better, I doubt a '70 Daytona would have had much better luck.

[TruckDriver]

Would it have outsold the Superbird in 1970 or languished as well?

I bet it would have languished too. Back then, most people thought the wing cars were fraking hideous. A lot of the Superbirds the dealers practically had to give away...some Daytona's too, for that matter.
So, although I do agree with you on your points of why it's better, I doubt a '70 Daytona would have had much better luck.

I said No just for that reason. If they did, I think most of them would of been retuned back into regular Chargers or worse..... Parted out and crushed like Richard Petty did with a show room Superbird.

[70charginglizard]

I think it would have sold a lot better than the superbird did.

The charger just looks a lot sleeker than the bird to me. Not to offend any of our superbird friends here. It's just an opinion. 

[BigBlockSam]

that 70 looks tougher than a 69, the scoops on the door look awesome. i think the stance of this one gives it that race look. i wish i knew more about this car. all Dayton's look keep ass. 

[6pkrunner]

I hate to say it, but I was around when the Daytona and Superbirds were sold at the dealer. When the Daytonas showed up we thought they were some sort of joke put on by the local dealers. When the Superbirds came a year later, well contempt is more what the feeling was. Sorry, but hey we just too out there during those years. Now the hindsight glasses are 20/20, but at the time they were a rolling joke. Today is a different story and I love the Daytonas. Not so mucg the Superdirds who don't have the curves to help the beak and towel rack be part of the package. They still look like an afterthought.

That said, the black version in the picture is a very nice sight. But in 1970 the Daytona would have sold slightly better then the Superbirds. Which is slight to none. Superbirds were converted to plain runners to move them and some sat on lots until 1974 before finding homes. What a difference 30 years makes.

[Spartan]

I remeber them a bit growing up.  I think the are pretty neat, a wild concept; guys like my dad think they are butt-arse ugly.

[BrianShaughnessy]

That black one in the top pic is about the nicest one I've seen - or at least it's what I like... got all the goodies - throw in a hemi or a 6 pack,  4 or 5 speed.. yuppp... I like it.  Heck I'd even consider the wheels that Dane put on the yellow one... although I think the new billet type cragars would look pretty dang good too. 


As for back in 70... no they wouldn't have sold any much better than the 69's or the 'birds sold.    They were too far ahead of their time.    And Chrysler was putting more effort into trying to sell the new E-bodies that year.   Also remember the '70 Charger sales were down compared to 69.

[69_500]

A 1970 Version would have never outsold the Plymouth Superbird. For 1 they were outlandishly priced to produce. Chrysler was losing money on each one of the street versions that they were selling anyways. So why produce more 70's when you have 69's still on dealership lots to get rid of? I have heard stories of Daytona's and Superbirds still being on lots as late as 1983. Now there is a few cases where the Dealerships' kept the wing cars for promotional reasons, but there were others that were just plain hard to get rid of.

[Blakcharger440]

A 1970 version Daytona would have definitely outsold the 70 Superbirds,just not by a huge amount.

[Ghoste]

Were there 69's still on the lots?  I thought the 69's were pretty much a sellout.  It was the Plymouth that came as a great surprise. (saleswise that is)

[purple70rt]

yes, would have been cool.

[ChargerBill]

A car that was a "give-away" is now one of the most sought after muscle cars of all time...go figure. Hey, if I couldn't have a real Daytona, I'd take a '69 or '70 clone. I also like the 71, 72 Dayclonas... In fact, the only Charger that looks strange as a Daytona IMO is a '68...something about it just isn't right.

[bull]

I may be wrong but I heard once (and believe) that Chrysler was planning on making a '70 Daytona Charger and that's why the front bumper is the way it is. I'm sure the main reason they didn't do a '70 Daytona was because of something going on with the stock car circuit; something like the Hemi ban or Petty's switch to Plymouth.... I dunno.

[hemigeno]

Bull is on the right track.

The Daytona was originally intended to be a '70 model year release, which is why they incorporated the '70 front clip components into the design.   When the Charger 500 didn't win the Daytona 500 in February of 1969 (which was a function more of Charlie Glotzbach's tire strategy than inferior aerodynamic characteristics of the 1969 Charger 500 setup), the edict came down from Bob Rodger, etc... Win At Talladega, by introducing the Charger Daytona early.

Since they had to build the cars AND give Creative Industries time to make the conversion over to a Daytona, AND ship all the cars prior to the early-September Talladega race, they had to make the early-release Daytona a '69 model year car.   They could have had a few 1970 street Daytonas built by the Talladega race, but not all 500 required under the then-current Nascar homologation rules.

Had Charlie Glotzbach won the '69 Daytona 500, the Charger Daytona would have been a 1970 model year car.

One of the fallout effects the Daytona had was to change the homologation rules that Nascar had at the time.   When the Charger Daytona came out, they required only 500 street version cars to be produced in order to race that body style in Nascar-sanctioned races.   Big Bill didn't want to see that type of one-upsmanship from the manufacturers, so he tried to make it economically difficult to produce these special models.   That's why the Plymouth Superbirds are so much more plentiful.   After the introduction of the Daytona, Nascar changed the requirement to 1 car to be produced for every 2 dealerships, rather than just a flat 500.   As a result, nearly 4 times as many Superbirds were required.   They went ahead with the Superbird anyway (for whatever reason, perhaps to make sure that Petty came back from his one year stint with Ford).

Chrysler had no intention of making a full model year run of 1970 Charger Daytonas once the move was made to release the Daytona as 1969 model year cars.   To do so would have been financially irresponsible.   They HAD to produce the Superbirds in those kinds of numbers, but why would they intentionally produce cars they were going to lose their shirts on if they didn't have to (since they could still race the 1969 Daytona body style for a few more years)?   If the car had been a huge, popular hit, then they may have considered it.   That wasn't the case, so they only did what they had to in order to keep the body style on the track.

It's nice to think about a '70 Daytona, but it was not a practical option for any car manufacturer.



Geno

[hotrod98]

I turned 16 in Feb 1972. We went downtown to the dealers to look for a car. The plymouth dealer had a new superbird and a new 70 hemi cuda. When my dad saw the bird he started laughing. He said that it was the absolutely most rediculous car that he had ever seen. The salesman told us that hey had been trying to sell the car for two years. I think they had come down to around $2500 if I remember correctly. I wanted the cuda but dad said hell no. The hemis had a real bad reputation as being a piece of crap to drive on the street. The closest thing to a cuda was a 318 barracuda that was ugly as hell. We ended up going to the chevy dealer and buying a low mileage 69 chevelle SS396. A local guy still has that superbird and won't sell it. Ten years ago a guy offered him 50k for the car when it was worth maybe 25k at the most. It's been almost totalled twice. The guy that bought the hemi cuda works for our dealership now. He sold it a couple of years ago to a collector. I sold the 69 ss in 2002.

[Ghoste]

Well, I guess that explains why those parts look more at home on the '70.

[69_500]

Anyone happen to know why all the superbirds were built before Jan 1st of 1970?




Anyone other than GENO.

[hemigeno]

Anyone happen to know why all the superbirds were built before Jan 1st of 1970?




Anyone other than GENO.

Ohhhh!!!   Ohhhh!!!!   I know!!!   I know!!!!   

[KMPX2]

They were total sales flops some sitting on lots for years. They are loved now but were jokes back then

[Chris G.]

Anyone happen to know why all the superbirds were built before Jan 1st of 1970?




Anyone other than GENO.

I'll take a guess and say because Jan 1st,1970 meant you needed some sort of bumper or bumper guards on the front. Am I in the ballpark?

[69_500]

Nailed it

[Old Moparz]

I think all '70 Chargers should get a nose cone & wing for aesthetics. 

[Charger_Fan]

Pretty cool story, Hotrod.

To go along with Geno's story, I read somewhere that when the designated official was counting the Daytonas, that there weren't 500 actually completed at the time of the count...somewhere around 480 or so. So they drove a few from the front of the pack back around to be counted twice.
Anyone know if that's true or not?

[hemigeno]

Well, sorta...

They didn't have all the Daytona's lined up ready to count at any one particular time, since they were shipped out over several week's time.   They did, however, have to put together a list of the car's VINs to submit to NASCAR to prove that they had the requisite number of cars produced.   I've seen a copy of the letter back from NASCAR approving the Daytona body style for use in the first Talladega race, but I don't think it mentions a nose count (no pun intended).

I've cross-checked the shipping list and found a few repeat VIN numbers, but only about 3 or so (it's been a while since I looked that up).   I can only account for 499 individual car's VINs, but there is at least one VIN of a Daytona that has shown up on the WW/NBOA owner's list that isn't on the shipping list, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few (VERY few) legit Daytonas that were not on the Shipping List that was submitted to NASCAR for verification.

Now, 1969 Charger 500's were a totally different story.   Danny (69_500) can tell you a lot more about what happened with them, but some people believe that Chrysler took the VIN's from several regular Chargers and/or non-Charger cars rolling down the line, and reported them as an XX29 car to NASCAR for their "verified" listing of cars.   That's why you'll see some people quoting production figures for the 500's in the 380 range rather than 500.   There's a healthy debate going on about those production figures, whereas Daytona's are generally regarded to be right at 500, give or take a few cars.

NASCAR could have smelled a rat with the C-500's and required a little better documentation on the Daytona's - who knows...

Personally, I've never heard that a NASCAR official ever visited Creative Industries to verify anything, but I suppose it's possible.

Geno

[Charger_Fan]

Thanks Geno, that's great info.

[hemi68charger]

As much as we all love them in hindsight, back then, there was no need for Chrysler to do so. If memory serves me, the corporations were allowed to run a body style something like 4 years after it was introduced. MaMopar could have just run the '69 Daytona for a couple more years without creating another model year inventory... But, as we all know, the combination of the winged car and the 426 hemi was prohibited in the '71 season, hence marked the dome of the winged car........ An example of this was the 1971 Daytona 500 were there was, Mario Rossi's #22 small-block powered Daytona. Incredibly, he finished 3rd and lead a lap....

Troy

[Ghoste]

After wrecking the nose and screwing up the airflow as I recall.

[hemi68charger]

After wrecking the nose and screwing up the airflow as I recall.

Yeap, it was an accident that domed Mario.... He gave it a heck of a try though.... I could only imagine the looks on NASCAR's Bill France if the #22 was able to win.........

Troy

[Ghoste]

I imagine there was some hand wringing even with coming in 3rd.

[69_500]

He should have won that race even though he was driving the car with a small block.

The story about running cars through the line again is about the 500's. It was always reported that there wasn't 500 of the 500's made, but rather 392. That was a the number thrown about for years. However Galen says  that there is 565 I think it is. I don't know where he came up with that number though. As I have talked to people who worked at Creative Industries, and they all have said that they would have been lucky to get 392 of  them out of the door before chrysler changed them over to building the Daytona's.
I was recently looking at a HEMI 500 that was on Ebay, and it has a stat that has always baffeled me. It says it was a HEMI 500 that is one of 559 produced according to GG, and that only 15 of them were HEMI 4 speeds. However I think that in just the list of HEMI 500's I have, I have over 15 of them as being HEMI 4 speeds. I also think that I have a total of 60+ HEMI 500's in the list. I would find it hard to believe that there were only 15 HEMI 4 speeds, when there is probably close to 100 HEMI 500's out there.

[hemigeno]

I would find it hard to believe that there were only 15 HEMI 4 speeds, when there is probably close to 100 HEMI 500's out there.

"Truth in Advertising" (especially on eBay) is an oxymoron.   

[69_500]

This is off topic here but Gene, the list of vin numbers you had at the Mopar Nationals? Were those out of the old Winged Warriors newletters?

[hemigeno]

This is off topic here but Gene, the list of vin numbers you had at the Mopar Nationals? Were those out of the old Winged Warriors newletters?

I had the two old WW lists there, plus I had printed out a copy of the Excel list I generated from the Daytona Shipping Lists.  I'm still refining and/or correcting that list (minor corrections only), based on the current series of lists that have been printed in the WW newsletters.  It's still a work in progress, but it's coming along.  Sooner or later it will be complete and as accurate as I can make it anyway.

[69_500]

I was just curious because it had 500 VIN's listed as well. The only list of 500 VIN's I have is of cars I've seen at shows over the past 27 years. Well that I've seen and wrote down, and that my dad has wrote down about cars. I don't think its as lengthy of a list as the one the WW have. I believe I only have info on 165 of the 500's.

[Lowprofile]

Thanks Geno, that's great info.

Thanks Geno!   Every once in a while ya learn something around here.......if you're paying attention!

BTW, I think the 70' makes a better looking Daytona.