Your opinion: stock upper control arms vs. Firm Feel tubular

[bull]

Just wondering if anyone here can give me some insight on the difference between the handling when using stock upper control arms to the Firm Feel tubular upper control arms. Is there really a $300 improvement in the positive caster you gain?

[bull]

Nuthin'?

[runningman]

There was a recent thread on this over on Moparts I believe, I will see if I can find a link.

[runningman]

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5183562&an=0&page=1#Post5183562

[runningman]

   Sorry just realized that was your thread over there.......I didn't get much sleep last night 

[suntech]

I do not have any experiance with the firm feel upper arms, but increased caster will normally give you much better direction stability, specially in higher speeds. Aftermarket front ends has normally more caster than stock. The XV has app 8 degrees, if i remember right, and i would assume Bill Reilly has something in the same ballpark.

[Ghoste]

You could always be the guinea pig Curtis and just dive right in there and let us all know what you think.  You know, all that "take one for the team" "chance to be immortalized" stuff. 

[b5blue]

Is your front end way out of wack? If not my vote is no, not needed...off-set bushings can be indexed to correct most problems. One of the things I like about B bodys is how easy to rebuild everything and how hardy it is when done! 

[bull]

You could always be the guinea pig Curtis and just dive right in there and let us all know what you think.  You know, all that "take one for the time" "chance to be immortalized" stuff. 

Take one for the time or team?

Is your front end way out of wack? If not my vote is no, not needed...off-set bushings can be indexed to correct most problems. One of the things I like about B bodys is how easy to rebuild everything and how hardy it is when done! 

It's not out of whack but it's going to be completely torn apart and put back together with all new stuff so if I'm going to "take one for the team" now would be the time to do it. I know it was a sales pitch that I got from the Firm Feel guy but he's also telling the truth about the improved handling, and I do plan to drive the thing whenever I get the chance...

http://firmfeel.com/tubuca_b.htm

[b5blue]

I looked into it too (wile my car sat in storage for years). Finely decided to just keep it stock and go with all Moog repair parts, I got a driver and really like how it handled and drove (Had some 1,000 mile road trips on it and really enjoyed the ride) I'm no "G Machine" racer tho. Just like the brakes...I've got everything except the calipers and hoses to swap to 11 3/4 slider disks to go on...cheap, hardy, easy to fix. If you go the route keep us posted, I've always wondered what you would run into doing it, don't you have to modify bump stops and keep taking the arms off to adjust the screw in mounts and such?You doing uppers and lowers? Brembo (sp?) has a new set up for B bodys that looks insane! Good Luck whatever ya decide!     

[bull]

I've always wondered what you would run into doing it, don't you have to modify bump stops and keep taking the arms off to adjust the screw in mounts and such?You doing uppers and lowers? Brembo (sp?) has a new set up for B bodys that looks insane! Good Luck whatever ya decide!     

I'm not sure but I'll ask. Can't say I'm into messing around with stuff all the time so if it is high maint. I'll probably skip it but if I do it I'll probably just do the uppers.

[Tom Q]

Tubular arms are better, Why?? Because they improve the "drive" quality of the car. Plus it's easier to get more + caster.
Your money your choice, however modern technology is usually better

[HPP]

Tubular arms have been around since the early 70s, so they aren't exactly new technology.

Are they worth it, depends. This question is along the same lines as what is better, a Holley or AFB? What do you do with the car?

If you drive your car to the show and shine or cruise it in parades, you probably won't notice $300 worth of improvement out of them. If you drive your car semi-regularly it might feel better, but the $30 for offset bushings and a better alignment can get you there for a tenth of the cost. If you drive it hard, autocross or do road events, then they are worth it, barely. $300 is ridiculous for arms, IMO, especially when there is only $50 worth of material in them., but that what the market has determined is the price point for them.

Once installed they can still be adjusted with the upper eccentrics like stock arms. Some do have screw in hiem joints which provide even more adjustment, but you still dial in the final adjustment with the eccentrics.

[Ghoste]

You could always be the guinea pig Curtis and just dive right in there and let us all know what you think.  You know, all that "take one for the time" "chance to be immortalized" stuff. 

Take one for the time or team?

lol, team.

[b5blue]

Now "Hodgkis" (heck I don't know how to spell it) has some for 700.00!Even more better- betterer- best-ist!!!  

[SFRT]

i like mine.

[John_Kunkel]

Some pretty scary pics on the Moparts board:

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5210269&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

[b5blue]

AARGH! What a mess! 

[HollyWoodCharger]

This just made up my mind on what to do with my 68's front suspension...

Rebuild the stock parts with better quality Bushings and Ball joints, and just upgrade the strut rods......

[Mike DC]

Regardless of how good or bad the aftermarket stuff is, there is validity to increasing the caster. 

The factory set the caster setting (not to mention the steering wheel size) because they were gonna build plenty of manual-steer cars on that platform.  That means compromises to make it easier to turn at walking speed.  Stock caster was virtually nil for that reason.  Modern cars, sports cars & otherwise, invariably run way more caster than our old Mopars. 




But I do agree about some of the poopy aftermarket arms out there.  There seems to be almost no understanding in the aftermarket that fragile parts are a problem on the street.  I guess it's just a product of what sells and what doesn't.  They'd sell a fiberglass rollcage (complete with a carbon-fiber-looking outer layer, no doubt) if they thought it would sell. 

   

[b5blue]

The engineers understood all the loads each section of a part were under and how those loads transferred through the system.Remember when you have to slam on the brakes at 50mph, the torque on the upper control arm forces it forward, the lower has a strut rod to handle the rearward stress, add bigger brakes and better gripping tires, a bit of a turn, and some over-angle (The front drops and the rear raises..or wants to) and think about the stresses on an upper control arm (or lower control arm) I'm not pro or con what anyone wants to do, that's there deal...I had several years to think about what I could do before I did it and the only reason I still have a Charger (I realized) was reliability, I need reliability so I can sink 99% of my money into my kids and their futures. So please don't anyone think I'm knocking what anyone has or want's to do to their cars!     

[bull]

The engineers understood all the loads each section of a part were under and how those loads transferred through the system.Remember when you have to slam on the brakes at 50mph, the torque on the upper control arm forces it forward, the lower has a strut rod to handle the rearward stress, add bigger brakes and better gripping tires, a bit of a turn, and some over-angle (The front drops and the rear raises..or wants to) and think about the stresses on an upper control arm (or lower control arm) I'm not pro or con what anyone wants to do, that's there deal...I had several years to think about what I could do before I did it and the only reason I still have a Charger (I realized) was reliability, I need reliability so I can sink 99% of my money into my kids and their futures. So please don't anyone think I'm knocking what anyone has or want's to do to their cars!     

So which do you have on your car?

[Mike DC]

     
It's not hard to make a decent aftermarket A-arm.  And the factory probably avoided welded suspension arms at least partially because they didn't wanna have to quality-control the welds well enough. 


Just fabricate the stupid things out of decent diameter mild steel tubing, with a decent 1/10th-1/8th" wall thickness, with decent full-penetration welds all around the joints, gusset where it's beneficial, don't run solid rod-ends in place of the rubber bushings, don't drive the car like your last name is Duke . . .  and breakage is not gonna be an issue. 



 

[b5blue]

All stock with Moog repair parts, I did use reinforcing plates on the LCA's because "boxing" the assembly should help handle the weight of the 440 and I'm changing the front drums to 11 3/4 "slider" type disk brakes with the "correct" A/E body spindles (there again sticking to factory spec.) The rear springs are MoPar HD 440/Hemi and the torsion bars are standard 440/Hemi also, I just really like the way a B body rides and don't have any handling issues. (granted mine is a driver, I'm not racing super cars through the "S" curves) I've driven it to VA. in 3 days putting 350/400 miles a day on it and loved it's ride, I've had it up to 125mph and it felt like it was on rails.  

[Mike DC]

             
Yeah, I agree that the stock setup was very good in the big picture.  The engineers knew what they were doing in the 1960s. 


Virtually every improvement we make to the chassis nowadays is basically related to either the radial tire changeover, or the compromises that were forced by the corporate bean-counters.  There's almost nothing actually INCORRECT about the original engineers' thinking.