505 Stroker build

[dstryr]

505 Cubic Inch 6BBL

598hp  651ft lb torque

How 'bout one thread for all of my questions instead of a new thread each time?

Here are the basics:

1966 440 block  +.030"

440 Source 512" kit

440 Source heads, valve job, back-cut valves

Porting:  254cfm initial, 283 after porting on the intake side

.044" ROL head gasket

Squared and decked, pistons -.004"

10.2:1 compr. approx.

Comp Cams  XS290S

Comp Cams EDM lifters

Smith Bros Pushrods

Harland Sharp 1.5  roller rockers S70015K

'69 6 bbl induction system with Promax outboard metering plates, center metering block, and rear adj. base

Stock dist. with Pertronix Ignitor conversion and Flamethrower coil

Doug's D452 2" headers




Here's my question for the day;

My builder has mocked up the block to prep for zero decking.  Left side he says the pistons run  -.016 to -.017 but the right side is -.018, -.017, -.010, -.014.  Does that sound like a rod needs correcting?  The plan is to zero deck the block and run the .044 ROL gasket for quench.  

Thanks!

[firefighter3931]

Frank, my own block was waay out of whack ; one bank taller than the other and both banks were uneven corner to corner. Not an uncommon occurance with mopar 

It's also possible that the crank indexing might need to be corrected....that often happens with aftermarket "budget" cranks. 



Ron

[dstryr]

If the crank indexing was off then would I expect to see both pistons on that journal higher than the rest?  Is a 'long' rod a possibility?  What's an acceptable variation in piston heights? 


The machine shop owner came well-recommended by a friend but his hey-day was the 70's and 80's and he's not so much into the 'new' stuff that is available for mopars.  So he's is asking me what I want to do because he's not real comfortable with the .040 quench distance and is afraid there could be contact if the piston rocks a little.  He told me yesterday the bores were honed to the 440Source specs is for clearance but I didn't ask what the clearances were.     

He is super-particular and wants to do it right so there are no issues for me in the future so for now I'll have to ask a few  so I am comfortable sorting this out with him.

[firefighter3931]

Sure, it's possible that the rod lengths are off....he'll need to mic them out to see what you've got. 

He should be able to tell you how far the block is out of whack as well....as of now it hasn't been machined, correct ? Most of the problem should be solved once the block is squared up. If you don't want to have the crank indexed then have him set the deckheight so that the tallest piston is at zero deck. A few thousandths difference won't make any difference.

The .044 quench is fine....with a shorter piston and larger diameter bore there might be more piston rock but even at that .040 is safe, inmo. I've read of .030-.035 tight quench builds without issue but that's a little too tight for my comfort level. 


Ron

[dstryr]

Thanks, Ron

No, the block hasn't been cut yet.  He will cut each side .010" and the tall piston will be at deck height and the rest will be just a little down, -.004 to -.008.   He should have it assembled by the end of next week.

[firefighter3931]

 He should have it assembled by the end of next week.

Right On ! 

[dstryr]

Hoping to get an exhaust system figured out for this car.  I have Doug's D452 2" headers and was thinking of going with 3" to the Ultrflows and then 2-1/2 out the back using stock chrome tips.  Will 2-1/2" tailpipes flow well enough for this big of a motor?  I won't be going to the track much and with the HP, I don't expect to need to turn big RPMs. 

[firefighter3931]

The exhaust gases cool the further away from the collecter they get so on a street build that will be "all done" by 6k.... i would have no problem using a 2.5in tailpipe. 

On that note i would opt for a 3in muffler and reduce it at the tailpipe joint. 



Ron

[dstryr]

My guy is assembling the motor and called this morning with a problem.  He says the crankshaft mics out at 1.5632" and the cam sprocket mics out at 1.5660".  He says it should be press fit and spins freely.  The crank is from 440Source and cam set is a CompCams adjustable, p/n is at home.

Any comments on this?

[firefighter3931]

Frank, i'm sure you're referencing the lower gear on the timing set correct....not the upper cam gear ?

The keyway will keep the lower gear properly oriented and when you install the Dampner it will push the lower gear in tight and keep it from walking around. None of the lower gears i've installed were press fit....they slid on easily.


Ron

[dstryr]

That's it, Ron.  I mis-spoke.   I think you are you saying the damper will also sandwich the lower gear to the shoulder on the snout so that the key is not what keeps the sprocket in place, correct?

This is the first 440 stroker he's built and I have so far supplied the parts except for the pushrods.  Should have the measurement today to order some Smith Bros. rods. 

I was just thinking, since I have been supplying the parts and the block was align honed, I may need an under-sized timing chaing.  I ordered the cam, lifters, and timing set from Dwayne Porter but am pretty certain we didn't choose an undersize chain.

[firefighter3931]

Frank, the key keeps the lower gear from spinning on the crank but the dampner also helps to secure it as well. 

You'll have to test fit the timing set to see if there is any slop in the chain. It depends how much material was removed during the align hone.

Good choice on the parts supplier....you would be hard pressed to find someone more knowledgable than Dwayne. 



Ron

[dstryr]

Ok, my builder hasn't used aftermarket mopar cranks and thought this was just sloppy work and said, "Call the guy you got it from!" so I gave 440Source a call and asked the crank spec, 1.5632-1.564.  Mine is 1.5632 as measured by the builder.  Then I called Dwayne Porter because I bought the cam, rockers, and timing set from him and he told me that since there are several aftermarket crank manufacturers out there with varying degrees of QC that the sprockets are typically a little on the loose side, probably on purpose to take into account the variations from different crankshafts.  He also said he has often seen .003-.004 clearance, while mine is only about .0028".  Builder is OK with that.   Assembly continues...

[firefighter3931]

See...no worries !  Oddly enough, I happened to be visiting Dwayne at the shop and was there when you called....talk about timing. 

Like i told you Frank the last few set's i've installed have not been press fit and slid on without any difficulty. None of those engines have had any issues and one of them is a supercharged 440 with a solid roller cam and 600lb spring pressures. 

Keep us up to speed on your progress 



Ron

[dstryr]

Hope to get few questions answered on pushrods with the Harland-Sharps. 

1)What size, 5/16" or 3/8" with stock Stealth springs and the solid lifter cam.

2)Has anyone had clearance issues with pushrods in general?  My builder thinks there will be interference.

3)Would adjustable pushrods be a better choice for the future in case I decide to cut the heads for a little more compression? 

The XS290S cam is recommended for 10.5:1 and I figured at zero deck the comp. would be 10.3:1 and I could get away with that.  With the 'tall' piston from my earlier question the deck was cut on both sides 0.010 so the tall piston is at zero and the rest about .004 to .008 in the hole.  I figured that would be just over 10.1:1 and maybe that cam might like a little more squeeze down the road.

[firefighter3931]

Frank, the 5/16 heavy wall (.065) chrome moly pushrods should work fine...that's what i have in mine. 

With a 1.5 rocker arm and the 5/16 pushrods it should clear without issue I would think ? Problems usually arise when thicker pushrods and increased rocker ratios are employed. 

I wouldn't worry about bumping up the compression....that cam is small enough in a 500in build that it will make tons of power down low. Those recommendations you're reading pertain to a 440....the extra stroke will tame the cam down considerably and make it act "smaller" than it would in a 440 based build. That puppy is going to be a torque monster with very good street manners. 


Ron

[dstryr]

         <= ME

[dstryr]

I think this build will finally be done after just ONE part arrives.  The 440Source pickup with the collar interferes with a rod.  440Source says take a belt sander to it and clearance it, but don't go too crazy or it will window the collar-not good.  So I said screw it and ordered a 3/8" stroker pickup w/out the collar for my 7" deep pan and should have it by Monday. 

Just a word of advice, use the pickup tube without the collar for a stroked motor.  

[firefighter3931]

Sounds like you're getting very close to firing that beast up Frank ! 

Minor setback on the rod/pickup clearance...thanks for the heads-up 

I've had good luck with the hemi pan and matching pickup....knock on wood. 



Ron

[dstryr]

 

[dstryr]

Have gotten a little side-tracked since Carlisle, then all the small details like water pumps and housings had to be settled, so still working on getting this motor completed.  I think Musicman and I may just have to be happy to see our motors in and running by spring to start next year's cruise season, but I'm still hoping I have a week or two to fry some tires if I can get it broken in this fall.  Musicman, I hope you get to yours as well.  

Question on a tight new motor...

I have put oil in and primed the motor and gotten plenty of oil to both rocker shafts.  The motor takes a lot of effort to turn.  This may be a subjective question, but how tight is too tight?  I used my torque wrench and was in the 80ft/lbs range, plugs finger tight in the holes and intake and exhaust manifolds taped over to keep dust out, but I don't see those two things as culprits.

[dstryr]

bump before it goes to page 2...

[firefighter3931]

Question on a tight new motor...

I have put oil in and primed the motor and gotten plenty of oil to both rocker shafts.  The motor takes a lot of effort to turn.  This may be a subjective question, but how tight is too tight?  I used my torque wrench and was in the 80ft/lbs range, plugs finger tight in the holes and intake and exhaust manifolds taped over to keep dust out, but I don't see those two things as culprits.

Frank, is the cam installed along with the valvetrain ? If so, that will make it harder to turn over, especially with the plugs installed 

I like to see 20-25ftlbs on the assembled shortblock with no heads or valvetrain.



Ron

[Musicman]

Hi Frank

It's good to hear that you are nearing the finish line 

As Ron has already stated... if you have everything installed, it is going to turn over rather hard due to cylinder compression, valve spring pressures, etc,etc,etc. Pull the plugs and try it again, I think you'll find it rolls over much easier   It's not going to freewheel of course, due to valve train pressures etc., but it should roll over much easier.
Keep us posted

Mike

[dstryr]

The motor went to the shop on Friday and will be broken in this week.  Next week is dyno time, barring any issues popping up.

[Musicman]

We'll be right here waiting

[TexasStroker]

We'll be right here waiting

Yeah, looking forward to the numbers!

[dstryr]

Will who owns the shop fired the motor Tuesday for its break-in and yesterday for a second run.  After the first run he changed oil and filter and all was well so let it cool overnight and ran it again yesterday.  I stopped after work and the motor was almost cooled off from the run earlier in the day and they had bolted on a set of headers.  He fired it for me and it sounds like a beast.   Idles well at around 1000 rpm and using the stock distributor with a pertronix ignitor under the cap.   Will said the exhaust temps all look good and they only adjusted 5 rockers after the break-in run.  Ron, the Firecores will go on before the dyno test.

I put the promax metering plates in the outboard carbs with 84 jets and stock 64s in the center carb.  We will change springs before the dyno runs because he opened it up to see if the outboards were coming in and they weren't.

I'll  have dyno numbers next week...

[Musicman]

Antisipation is killing us here    

I see your jetting is similar to mine... I'm running mine a little richer... 88 outside, 68 center, because I don't want to take the chance of having it go lean on me during the tests. I'm also running a different set of carburetors (BG Six Shooters) on my build, so my outside carbs are mechanical not vacuum operated. All 3 carbs have squirters also, so it's a little different than your setup in that respect as well.
Mine is getting done tomorrow, so we'll see what happens. Wish me luck

[firefighter3931]

I'll  have dyno numbers next week...

You tease ! 

 
He fired it for me and it sounds like a beast.   

Of couse it does...that ain't your grandpa's 318 ! 

Ron, the Firecores will go on before the dyno test.

Good plan....optimize the fuel curve while you have it on the dyno. The Firecore wires are know to lean out a fuel curve due to the increased spark energy. Get that Badboy dialed in and please hurry up, lol ! We're allmost as excited as you are ! 


Ron

[dstryr]

Here's a quick update.  The outboards weren't opening last week so I dropped off a set of springs on Friday and they changed them over to the lightest spring to get things started in the right direction. They had put a bolt on the throttle to manually open the outboards and at least get some numbers and see where the a/f ratios were and EGTs, and had just changed to the lightest springs to continue tuning.  

With 36* total advance and 64s center and 84s outboards it made 560hp and 630 ft. lbs torque.  It was a little lean so they went to 66s and 86s and played around with the timing 34* and 38*.  It liked 36* and they will go back to 84s in the outboards and expect the numbers to come back and even improve a little.  Will liked the 66s in the center.  Hopefully the lighter springs will get things going in the right direction.   I don't have an unlimited tuning budget so we will get close and I'll work on it after it is in the car, if it still needs tweeking.  

More to follow once I get a dyno sheet.

Thanks for all the help and advice!

2nd test of the day, 1st one I was there to see:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUHDi-iPf9A

3rd test :
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgoJBORKieQ

[firefighter3931]

Right on Frank !  I'm sure there's additional Horsepower in there with some tuning. Man, gotta LUV 630ftlbs of torque 

Looking forward to some dyno data 


Ron

[Musicman]

Looking real good Frank

I have to wait until I get home to view the vid's, so I'll get to them this evening.

Do you know what kind of vacuum you were pulling in those first runs Hopefully the lighter springs will do the trick

Keep us posted

Mike 

[dstryr]

Well, I'm done spending my money on dyno time.    I'll pick the motor up and have a printout by the end of the week.   Will used a set of 1-7/8 fenderwell headers for the break-in and initial tuning but with my 2" Doug's Headers the numbers crept up just a tad, +38hp and +22lb/ft of torque, to  598hp and 652tq.    

He pulled to 5800 and said it wasn't near ready to quit.  Now all I need is a race car. 

[Musicman]

Nice job Frank... Congratulations

With all you guys punching out these big numbers lately, I'm starting to feel a little intimidated... maybe I should have just stuck to plan "A" with my build...

Nah, not really I like it just the way it is



P.S.: Cool Vid's

[firefighter3931]

with my 2" Doug's Headers the numbers crept up just a tad, +38hp and +22lb/ft of torque, to  598hp and 652tq.    

He pulled to 5800 and said it wasn't near ready to quit.  Now all I need is a race car. 

Wow, that's an excellent improvement ! 

I had a feeling there was more in that combo and it looks like they found it 

Congrats Frank ! 



Ron

[dstryr]

Sorry for the pic quality- the printouts were light and I couldn't get a scan so these are the best I could do with the digital cam and editing.

Dyno sheet says Sweep 12... I guess they were busy while I was away.



Avg Corr HP  540
Avg Corr TQ  614
Avg Acceleration  830



Peak Corr HP  598  @ 5700 RPM
Peak Corr TQ  651 @ 4500 RPM







Avg Fuel Flow  31gph
Peak Fuel Flow 37gph
Avg BSFC       .383
Peak BSFC      .435

[super_dave]

Wow thats awesome.  Good for you, should be fun to have that under foot.

So, whats a build like that cost roughly with dyno time etc... over / under 10,000?

[dstryr]

Thanks, Dave

I got a lot of great advice from guys on moparts.com, the a12.com forum and especially HERE to get this far and I hope this helps.  Here are the round numbers; I'm sure I spent more than a lot of guys might who have parts hoarded, but less than others.



Cam, timing set, EDM lifters and HS 1.5 ratio rockers from Dwayne Porter   $1100.00
440Source heads and rotating assm.                                                      $2800.00
Porting, valvejob and back-cut valves by Harry's Heads, Sioux City, IA       $  766.00
Machine work including 1 sleeve, align hone and assembly                         $2180.00
Smith Brothers pushrods                                                                      $  160.00

Add to that a 7qt pan, Melling HV oil pump, ARP head bolts & main studs, Damper, windage tray, intermediate shaft, water pump & housing, and a few other things that I didn't want to pull off the original motor for the car, and 10* locks & retainers......another $500-$600.

Plus the Promax Max Pack kit with rear base plate, outboard jettable metering blocks, and center carb block, $450.00.

Then $600 for Doug's 2" Headers, another $350 budgeted for a 3" exhaust system, dyno time for $700 which included priming the engine and re-lubing the camshaft before fire-up, installing the intake/carbs, break-in for 3 20-minute runs w/ oil changes after 1 & 3, changing manifolds to headers, then changing to my headers for the final pull & numbers above.  

So for basic new parts and machine work, just over $7k.  The rest adds up pretty quick, though...


Last thought,  the 440Source heads are advertised to flow 290cfm OOTB and Harry's Heads measured mine at 254 before and 283 after for a gain of 29cfm.  Most guys have found the number to be closer to 255 OOTB, like mine.  FWIW, it might matter for someone looking at these heads.

Frank

[super_dave]

Frank, thanks for the reply, I appreciatte it.  For that kind of power I think you did really well cost wise, not that I know much about these things    I initially had looked at some turnkey engine deals all at $11,000.00 and up, but the power numbers are considerably less.  Are you using this build mainly for street use or strip?  Thanks.

[dstryr]

Dave, I'm real happy with the results, especially for a pump gas motor.  It will be in a car driven almost entirely on the street.  I'm 2hrs from any race track now and no budget to race consistently.   I'm really looking forward to spring and getting back on the street.   A non-roller rocker would have been a lot less and given up a few hp.  The motor looks very stock, also. I cut the baffles from a set of valve covers to clear the roller rockers so the headers will really be the only thing that looks non-stock, plus the extra wire for the pertronix Ignitor under the dist cap.