Looking for lightweight 6-pack rod & piston recommendations.....>>>>>

[Johnny SixPack]

Hey guys, having the 440 in my "70 Charger rebuilt, and figured I'd get some tips/ideas on what should be done.

Going to keep it very close to the stock 440 6-pack specs with the addition of a .484 cam (not positive, but one might already in it?).

This will be a complete tear down and inspection of the motor (105,000 miles) since a previous owner used the drag race the car.

I know he ran it hard enough to blow up the original trans, so I'm hoping we don't find any surprises.

Plus there's been some issues with valve float and untold headaches with carbs/backfiring, and since this is the original motor, I don't want to take any chances.

The mech said that they'd bore it out as little as possible, but mentioned I might end up with a 446 in the end.

When/if it's needed, what hardware (rods/pistons/rings) would be the best bet, and what areas need special attention?

What about valve work?

I've never had anything more than magna-fluxing heads done before, so this will be my first real machine work to deal with.

Also, any ballpark estimates for an all around motor rebuild would be great.

Thanks guys.

[cudaken]

 1 big tip, stay away from D&D machine shop in Fenton MO.

Next would be make sure the block has a blue printed deck height.

Next, would either use worked YL rods or egales rods. 6-pack where the hot rods for a while, but the extra weight makes then rev a little slower and extra weight can make them come apart little quicker. Funny the bigger beam section is starting to go aginst them now.

APR rod bolts.

Is it a Street car, or a show car? If it is number matching and you are worried about re sale might think about a driffent block to be safe.

Oh, 1215 Felpro intake gasket so you don't burn the pretty paint of the intake.

What are your goals any way?

                                                                   Cuda Ken

[Johnny SixPack]

Thanks for the tip, Ken.

The motor is going to be very close to stock.

It is the original block, and I just might get a donor block so I can have some piece 'o' mind about driving this thing hard.

It's also an original 6-pack, so I know the bottom end will be different.

Car will be a street/show deal.

More street than anything though.

I'm more interested in drivin' her than cleaning her.  

Mainly I want to make sure that things are done right.

The goal is to have a 10.5:1 bit of heaven that'll run on nicely on pump gas.

I'm saving the madness for the other car.

[firefighter3931]

Johnny,

Quality machinework and attention to detail will make or break a motor. For what you're looking to do with this car, a basic rebuild with a few tricks should be plenty. The speedpro 6-pack pistons would be fine along with reconditioned rods and ARP rod/main bolts. Balancing the rotating assembly is a must for a reliable/durable engine that you want to last and run well. A good 3 angle valvejob and maybe some mild bowl porting on the heads would be sufficient. If you're keeping the factory manifolds, a cam with a wider lsa and short overlap will work better than the 484 hydraulic. There are a couple of cams in the new Lunati "VooDoo" series that would be excellent choices for a mildly warmed up 6-pack build. A 2.5in TTI mandrel bent exhaust system would be ideal fot the aformentioned build.

With iron heads and pump gas you want to keep the compression in the 9.5:1 range. The 6-pack pistons would give you close to that or maybe slightly less depending on the deckheight and combustion chamber volume of your heads.

Ron

[Johnny SixPack]

Thanks Ron.

Definitely keeping the manifolds.

They're a must for the stock deal, so I'm gonna live with 'em.

And what I know about cams would fit onto the head of a pin with room left for a herd of pink elephants.

I definitely suffer from a lack of off the line power, and have gotten into the habit of reving it up before leaving from a dead stop.

That could be in large part to the 3500 stall converter (or the carbs), but again, that's a previous owner thing.

I just want the motor to be slightly above factory power levels in the end.

One last thing, weren't the "70 6-pack motors 10.5:1 stock?

Or was that a little bit of factory padding?

Thanks again Ron!

[firefighter3931]

I just want the motor to be slightly above factory power levels in the end.

One last thing, weren't the "70 6-pack motors 10.5:1 stock?

Or was that a little bit of factory padding?

With a little headwork and proper cam selection it will be stronger than stock. A good exhaust system will also help a lot. A 3500 stall is too much for a driver/cruiser inmo. The turbo action 11in "street hemi" converter would be much better. The factory advertised compression ratios were allways generous. The 2355 speedpro piston is an exact replica of the factory 6-pack slug except it is much stronger/durable being made of forged aluminum. There are lighter pistons available but you're not building a race engine so they're not needed inmo. Realisticly, this type of build is good to 5500-5800 rpm unless there are heavy cylinder head mods, a big cam and headers. That is a direction that you're not going with this build so balancing the rotating assembly with a basicly stock but strengthened bottom end (ARP rod/main bolts) is sufficient with those parameters in mind.  

Ron

[Johnny SixPack]

Muchos gracias, amigo!

I will make sure to talk about those pistons with my guy tomorrow.

Will also bring up the converter recommendation.

Baring any major problems the only things that'll be replaced are pistons and rings, correct?

I know I've had more than one instance of valve float before (@ 5500 rpm), so I'm wondering if the springs aren't shot.

If that is the case, would you just replace the springs, or.....?

How much will it add to make sure that the motor is completely balanced?

Here's a question for those of you with the TTI exhaust: Does it pass for a near stock appearance with the correct tips?

[firefighter3931]

Muchos gracias, amigo!

I will make sure to talk about those pistons with my guy tomorrow.

Will also bring up the converter recommendation.

Baring any major problems the only things that'll be replaced are pistons and rings, correct?

I know I've had more than one instance of valve float before (@ 5500 rpm), so I'm wondering if the springs aren't shot.

If that is the case, would you just replace the springs, or.....?

How much will it add to make sure that the motor is completely balanced?

Here's a question for those of you with the TTI exhaust: Does it pass for a near stock appearance with the correct tips?

A proper rebuild will include pistons, rings, main/rod/cam bearings, oil pump. ARP rod and main bolts along with rod reconditioning and having the components static and dymnamic balanced. The valvesprings are certainly tired and will need to be upgraded. Timing chain and gears and possibly rocker arms/pushrods. The valvesprings need to be matched to whatever cam you decide on. Valve replacement will depend on their condition but if they need replacing go with a stainless steel valve, especially on the exhaust side.

TTI makes a stock looking H-pipe system that will bolt right up to your factory manifolds. They also sell the matching stainless tips and all the hanger hardware. The factory 21/4 compression bent exhaust system is very restrictive and hurts performance bigtime. To get the most out of this build you want a 21/2 mandrel bent exhaust so the engine can exhale properly.

Not sure on costs in your area but mine was $175.00 for the balance job.

Ron

[cudaken]

 Cost me $250.00 in the mid west to have my balanced.

Ron, with the speed pro 6-pack pistons and a blued printed deck height it would still only be 9.5 to 1? Is that with .0040 head gasket or .0020 steel head gasket? That is assuming the heads where the proper CC's.

                                   Ken

[firefighter3931]

Cost me $250.00 in the mid west to have my balanced.

Ron, with the speed pro 6-pack pistons and a blued printed deck height it would still only be 9.5 to 1? Is that with .0040 head gasket or .0020 steel head gasket? That is assuming the heads where the proper CC's.

                                                    Ken

Ken, the block should be at 10.725 if it's exactly as it's supposed to be. With that spec bang on the 6-pack slugs are .020 below deck. Using an 88cc chamber here are the numbers with both .020 steel shim and .040 composite :

(1) 88cc with .020 steel shim = 9.98:1
(2) 88cc with .040 composite = 9.57:1

This is using a 4.35 bore dimension (.030 over 440)

Ron

[Johnny SixPack]

*Update*

Talked to the guy and he said the SpeedPro's are what he was recommending.

Also going to with the added piece of mind a donor block will bring (save the #'s block).

So we'll be decking the block, boring it .030 over and going with the steel head gasket.

He's saying this will bring the motor closer to 11:1, but it will still run on pump gas as long as an additive is used (i.e. 104).

It'll be damn close to the 440+6 "70 RR he just finised restoring.

With these specs, do you recommend the same converter, Ron?

What about a shift kit?

I'm all for unseen upgrades.

Keep 'er as close to stock appearance wise, but mod'd internally.

[firefighter3931]

Johnny, unless the heads have been heavily milled i don't see how it will end up anywhere near 11:1 compression. Really, it will be just fine at 9.5:1 with the right cam choice. The best converter is also dependant on the cam and gearing....what gears are in this car ?

Ron

[Johnny SixPack]

He didn't talk about any head work, so I'm not sure where he's getting his numbers from.  

But it will at least be close to 10:1 with the 0 deck-height and the .020 metal head gasket, no?

As for the rear gears, they're 3:23s.

The guy doing the work swears by Hughes Cam.

He'll be contacting them with the build info and getting their recommendation, so I don't have any cam info yet.

What I'd really like is a combo that has good highway manners along with stoplight-to-stoplight potential.

I know this car will not see track duty, due to its history, but she still needs to hold her own.

It will be dyno'd after the build though.

Interested to see when kind of numbers we'll get with a very mildly built (almost stock) 440 6-pack.

[cudaken]

 I am all most ready to tel you pick your stuff up and run! With out knowing the heads cc's there is no way he can tell you what compression you will have. Did he tell you with what kind of head gasket? Most shop's use a .0040 Fefpro gasket and if you look at the what I asked Ron you will see it nake a big driffrencess. (sorry about the spelling) Did he check the deck height first before he did the math?

Is it called D&D? Before you bail on him make him write down the math and let Neil or Ron check it. INC head cc's, and deck height that he based it on. Also ask him what he based it on. I think the stock cc's are 88 but will not swear on it.

                                            Cuda Ken, ready to help you pick your stuff up!

PS, humm, where do you live

[Johnny SixPack]

LOL!

No, no, no!

Not D&D!  

I'm just north of Houston, Ken.

I've seen the finished work his shop does (he farms out his machine work though) and it's top notch.

He's the guy Troy (hemi68charger) is using to restore his "68 Hemi Charger.

My problem is this: I don't know jack $#*t about motor work.  

I'm guessing he's basing his #'s on estimates.

I talked to him about the .020 metal head gasket Ron said would bring the CR up to 10:1 (along with 0 decking the block) though.

[firefighter3931]

LOL!

I'm guessing he's basing his #'s on estimates.

I talked to him about the .020 metal head gasket Ron said would bring the CR up to 10:1 (along with 0 decking the block) though.

Yep, those compression ratio #'s are guestimates. The static compression ratio numbers i posted above are based on a stock 10.725 RB block which places the 2355's at .020 below deck.

Zero decking the block means taking more off so that the pistons sit flush with the deck surface. That is how mine was done, fwiw. The resulting static compression ratio with a .030 over 2355 piston and 88cc head is as follows:

.020 steel shim head gasket = 10.42:1
.040 composite felpro pn 1009 head gasket = 9.97:1

Combustion chamber volume will influence the final static ratio so it needs to be know in advance before making any difinative estimates on compression.....KEN is CORRECT...as usual  

My calculations are based on a theoretical 88cc combustion chamber volume....yours could be less or more. You won't really know for sure unless you have the heads cc'd and measured.

As for the cam : something in the 220*-225* @.050 lift is what you want with 3.23 gears and a 2500 stall. Engle has some nice grinds that can be custom mixed & matched for a specific application. I would suggest something on a 112* lsa for a car using factory manifolds. Less overlap and increased cylinder scavenging with a wider lobe seperation angle. The engine will also idle smoother and be easier to tune with the 6-pack induction system.

The "if it were mine answer" would be : Build it for 9.5:1 static compression with todays crummy reformulated/oxegenated fuel. You won't notice a power difference between 9.5 and 10.0 compression on the street. You will notice a difference if you have to mix in race fuel to keep it from pinging and ruining your engine. The 906 heads won't have hardened exhaust seats which are needed for unleaded fuel. There are 2 options here : have the seats installed or just use a stainless exhaust valve....or preferably both. Running unleaded fuel in an older head will cause the valves to sink into the head....especially on the exhaust side. Manley and Milidon make OEM sized replacement stainless valves for a very reasonable cost.

Ron

[Johnny SixPack]

Well, she's headed off to the shop as of this afternoon.

Going with a donor block for sure.

Only mod's will be the 0 deck height, cam and the TTI exhaust.

Going with the .020 metal head gaskets so I should be just a hair under 10:1.

With everything you said Ron, this should be a perfect setup for this car.

Essentially stock, but mildly warmed up.

About the converter you recommended, Ron, what will be the noticeable difference?

As much as I hate the car's current off the line performance, I love the way it hits from 35 mph on.

Like I said before, it's currently a 3500 stall with 3:23 rear gears (keeping the gears, but converter is up in the air).

[firefighter3931]

About the converter you recommended, Ron, what will be the noticeable difference?

As much as I hate the car's current off the line performance, I love the way it hits from 35 mph on.

Like I said before, it's currently a 3500 stall with 3:23 rear gears (keeping the gears, but converter is up in the air).

Johnny, the biggest difference is that it will feel "tighter" coming off idle. The 3500 stall and 3.23 gears makes it feel sluggish....the 3.23's hurt it a lot. It would probably feel crisper with a deeper 3.91-4.10 gear and 3500 stall....but that's not the way you're going. The idea is to keep the stall speed close to the hwy cruising rpm. So, with 3.23's you'll be ~2500 rpm or slightly higher at 60-65 mph. This will keep the tranny cooler and make it last longer. Loose converters generate heat....which is hard on transmissions.

The 2500 stall is a good compromise....gives you more than stock but won't burn up the trans. How well it performs depends on the camshaft and it's powerband. You want a modest amount of duration.....nothing radical with 2500 stall for best performance. Something with 220-225*@.050 ground on a 112* lsa is what i'd use. If your cam doesn't make power until 3000 rpm and you're using a 2500 stall....then there's a 500rpm gap which will be very noticable.

Ron

[Johnny SixPack]

Johnny, the biggest difference is that it will feel "tighter" coming off idle. The 3500 stall and 3.23 gears makes it feel sluggish....the 3.23's hurt it a lot.

You nailed it, Ron.

Definitely have to wrap it up before you get any movement.

Would it be best to buy the converter after the dyno?

That way the power band would be known for sure.

As for the cam, I'm trusting my guy on this one.

When it comes time for the 496 I'll know what I want.

I'll let you know what we go with cam wise though, Ron.

That way if it's totally off base you can give me your thoughts.

Thanks for all your help, guys!

[firefighter3931]

As for the cam, I'm trusting my guy on this one.

Lets hope he knows what he's doing. As long as the cam makes power low enough it will be fine. If he's on the ball the cam will be custom ground on a 112* lsa for use with the ex manifolds. It wouldn't hurt to run a split duration grind to help the engine exhale better. I'll be interested to see what he comes up with.

Ron

[Johnny SixPack]

From what I've seen, I'm confident.

Troy trusts him.

Like I said though, on the next one I want to be making the decisions.

That gives me a year to start learning I guess.  

[Johnny SixPack]

Ron, I'm gonna go with the TTI system, but seem to remember you liked Magnaflow mufflers.

They offer Dynomax's, so I thought I'd just check with you to make sure before I go and buy anything.

Thanks!

[firefighter3931]

Johnny, the TTI systems are designed for using a dynomax superturbo muffler which has a rumble but not too loud. The ultraflow is more of a high performance piece and has a straight through design so it's louder. The magnaflow is also a straight through design but is quieter than the ultraflow and louder than the superturbo....from what i've heard. You really can't go wrong with any of these choices, but the superturbo will be the quietest of the three. Quiet is a relative term though. My buddy has the superturbo's on his 408 e-head stroker and they sound great. He posted a soundbite here awhile back....

OK, found the link ; combo is a 408 smallblock stroker, e-heads, Comp XE257hl cam, tti headers and 2.5in x-pipe exhaust with dynomax superturbos. These are the ones that come with the tti all inclusive kit.


http://208.63.61.10/imagebank/Rob/70cuda/spring-rev.AVI


Ron

[Johnny SixPack]

Sounds good, Ron.

I like that the Magnaflows are in the middle of the three loudness wise.

I used Magnaflows when we switched our "97 Town Car to a dual exhaust, and I've been impressed so far.

I used Dynomax as part exhaust system for an old "72 C10 I owned awhile back.

I like both, but will probably go with the Dynomax option for simplicity's sake.

Especially since you're saying there's no performance difference.

Gracias senor!

[Johnny SixPack]

Well, some interesting news.

Apparently one of the previous owners of my "70 Charger took the 6-pack guts out of the motor and assembled and balanced it for a 4 bbl.

From what I heard today the PO also did a really crummy job of weighting the crank, and there's just crap everywhere.

So, since I now will have to replace the rods too, Tom got me to thinking about going a little crazier with the build.

I'm not worried about it now especially since the #'s block is being set aside.

What I'd really like is some recommendations on lightweight 6-pack rods and pistons.

Also what cram might led itself to the a faster reving combo?

[cudaken]

 Hum, lighter rod's in the motor, hum Seems some one had the right idea and had it done wrong. I won't go into great details but PM doechsleor call Dennis at Reed Cam 770-474-6664. (there engine bulider)

Dennis and I where talking the other day on the phone. He told me what killed the ill fated 440 and make's more sense than D&D not tighten down a rod bolt! Sorry Neil, Ron, Runner and other folks. What he told me on the phone with out seeing the 440 in person is what I was told by Jack at J&J. As soon as I started to talk about the rod's he said "they are junk, Mopar made tuff but sloppily made rod's"!

If I ever bulid a full tilt boogie Mopar, stock rods will be on E-bay or in the trash.

                               Cuda Ken

[firefighter3931]

If I ever bulid a full tilt boogie Mopar, stock rods will be on E-bay or in the trash.

                               Cuda Ken

Actually, there's nothing wrong with stock rods as long as they're properly prepped. Guys ran them for years with heavy trw slugs and spun those combos to 7k routinely. We're lucky nowadays with all the aftermarket offerings and options available to us. It's just a few $ more to purchase a nice set of brand new h-beam forgings so most will go that way.

So, basicly it becomes a cost effective option to go with brand new forgings rather than rework old castings. I will agree with Ken that it's not worth it to rework stock rods. The 535 (LY) is still a pretty tough rod .....how tough ? There's a guy on another board who intentionally blew up an engine to see what the failure issues would be. The engine grenaded with a 400hp nitrous hit while making an 8second pass....it had survived everything up to that point and had hundreds of nitrous passes on that engine. I have no reservations using them in my on motor....but if i had to do it again, a brand new H-beam would be used .....it makes sense from a cost standpoint.

Ron

Ps. Johnny...you've got mail

[Johnny SixPack]

Ron, thanks for the new options!

I like the idea of a nice mild stroker.

Nothing too radical, but since the block isn't stock, and the idiot before me screwed up the crank, might as well go stroker, eh?

So h-beam rods and Ross pistons?

With the block being .030 over, what would the displacement be with stroker crank (3.90) and stock heads, Ron?

Will the change in engine purpose necessitate changing the converter choice?

How about a shift kit?

Now would also be the time to decide on any trans. mods since mine is being gutted to put into a "70 coded case (currently have a "68 coded case).

I owe yah big, Ron!

[firefighter3931]

With the block being .030 over, what would the displacement be with stroker crank (3.90) and stock heads, Ron?

Will the change in engine purpose necessitate changing the converter choice?

How about a shift kit?

Now would also be the time to decide on any trans. mods since mine is being gutted to put into a "70 coded case (currently have a "68 coded case).

I owe yah big, Ron!

The 3.90 crank and 4.35 bore is a 464 ci combo. The torque curve will be flat and strong....much stronger than with a conventional 3.75 stroke. This engine will make power everywhere.  

Converter choice depends on the cam selection. Personally, i'd choose something in the 2500 rpm range. The turbo action 11in "street hemi" model would be ideal.

Freshening up the trans wouldn't hurt and maybe have a reprogramming kit installed to firm up the upshifts...no need to go radical for a cruiser. Transgo and B&M both make good reprogramming kits for 727"s.

As for the cam, something custom ground from engle with a 112* lsa and split pattern is worth considering.

Ron

[Johnny SixPack]

Thanks for the converter and trans. tips, Ron.

That setup sounds better suited than the 3500 that's in there.

I'm slowly but surely finding out that this car has had some interesting history.

I knew that a previous owner had raced it, but didn't expect the motor info I received from the machine shop.

Oh well, guess that's par for the course for 36 yr old muscle car.