My "Sick Pack" 440

[b5blue]

After some great help from members and searching previous threads with really good "links" I wanted to give a heads up to everyone contemplating a six pack in the near future. First off I've run into a problem with the center carb to manifold gasket...Fel-Pro's is too narrow in the rear leaving a tiny gap where the slot in the base, that feeds the large vacuum tube on the passenger side is. Several different Holly 2300 gaskets (from different sources) were tried and all did the same thing. The resulting "leak of vacuum" can raise hell with the action of your outboard carbs, idle, and distributor's vacuum retard. ProMax is aware of the problem and makes their own, I'll know for sure when they get here so check your gaskets to the intake and to the carbs before installing, some gaskets just barely cover, that is not good enough as mine failed shortly (done by a well meaning carb shop).The next thing that I ran into is that the valley pan should have intake gaskets above and below it to properly seal. When I ordered my intake set and clearly stated I was installing a six pack I assumed since it was a MoPar set it was complete and installed it...and it leaked at the heat crossover and I got small oil leaks into the intake runners of the heads and even a little on top of the valley pan. The problem is when you order the Fel-Pro 1215 gasket set with the 4 intake gaskets and valley pan (with the heat block-off) the gaskets may be too thick making the intake sit a tiny bit too high to get the intake bolts started. Frustrated I ground out a little of my intake's bolt holes to make it fit and later realized a better approach would have been to find thinner intake gaskets.FYI I'm trying running the heat block-off with just 1/8 holes drilled in ether side(from a recommended link) to see if it helps with a "heat soak" problem I've dealt with in the past (my intake is aluminum) Some how 14 years ago with the help of friends I got all this right, the thing ran problem free for 7 years till the motor gave up. After sitting in storage for six years then taking great care to order what should have been correct parts I'm warning to do your own checking! (I have yet to find all six pack info in one source)               

[firefighter3931]

Looking forward to your progress Neal. The 6-pack induction is a lot of work to dial in but on a mild 440 they are a nice setup and look cool.     Any plans to stagger the jetting ?


Ron

[b5blue]

Hey Ron! The only staggering going on right now is ME! I called Todd at Marsh and let him know about the gasket issue, right now I'm hoping to sort out the details I missed in the rush to get the car out on the road.(my son needed the beater for USF)Once I get the new center carb (that I may not have needed) on and the XR5's with the FIRECORE's (Thanks!) I want to baseline everything to see where I'm at. The only reference I've run into on staggered jets so far was an article from MoPar Action I believe...they were un-staggering a six pack for an engine they had heavily modified. Once again any info I can collect will be appreciated. I'm trying to build this with an eye on mileage to see how good it can get (hence the 145K torque converter and 3.23 gears).         

[firefighter3931]

Hey Ron! The only staggering going on right now is ME!
     

Quit staggering and get to work ! 

With the "resto" cam the stock jetting should be in the ballpark. One thing you might want to look at is the power valve...do an idle vacuum reading in gear and see what you've got once it's up and running. That cam should pull a ton of vacuum with the dual plane 6-pack intake. Most holley carbs come with a 6.5 PV but if you're making 12in of vac in gear the PV should be upsized to help with transistion from idle to main circuit. This helps bigtime with off-idle bog at full throttle. For reference ; i like to size the PV 2-3 hg lower than idle vacuum. Power enrichment comes in sooner. 


Ron

[62 Max]

For what its worth,the only base gasket I have ever used and will contine to use is the original brown heavy cardboard gasket.I machine all my bases but it is very forgiving if you have a base that is not true.They don't leak.

My Superbird has one of the old Street Hemi 284/474 grind cams from 25+ yrs ago,center carb has # 66 jets, idle feed .040,power valve channel restriction .043 throttle side,.052 diaphragm side,6.5 valve.,front plate drilled .089,rear .093.Intake gasket is 413 truck with one 1/4" hole on passenger side heat crossover.12 hg at idle (1000 rpm), timing,38* total.

Dana 3.54,4spd.Has always averaged 16/17 mpg.Car runs as good as you would ever want.Has been the same since I put it together in 1984.

[bill440rt]

Wow. Good info.
I ordered my 6-pack setup from ProMax as well. GREAT company to deal with. Ben is a true gentleman. 

It came all pre-assembled with their special Max-Pack baseplates, dyno'd & dialed in close to my engine combo. I got the FelPro gasket kit from Mancini. It has the tin valley pan with the black intake gaskets. Any problems with these other than getting the bolts started? I'm using ARP's intake bolt kit. 

[b5blue]

Ron we are thinking alike there  62 Max SWEET!! would you believe nobody had gasket material except the thin stuff around here? Bill the gasket set (1215) problem for me may be from my used 346 heads being surfaced a couple times, test it all dry first. I had Gagacinched the gaskets to the heads and intake then silicone d the valley pan in place thinking it all would fit! I checked my new carb fuel line set from RIGHT STUFF against my old original and the new one's are about 3/8" longer from the brass "T"s to the carbs!! That's going to put them down and over farther moving closer to the intake, valve cover, and distributor (were it goes down to the fuel pump). Maxwellwedge was right about "having to bend the hell out of" the fuel pump (Carter M4845 with brass adapter) to vapor separator steel fuel line also!  so much for paying extra to "just assemble the correct parts".  In my original post I miss identified the vendor as Fine Lines!! I am very sorry it was RIGHT STUFF NOT Fine Lines!!        

[bill440rt]

Great. More good info.
I got a set of stainless carb lines from Fine Lines. I gotta swap them out before it goes on the engine. I'll pre-assemble the lines & compare first before bolting them on.

Looks like the Fel-Pro gasket set may work out for me after all. 

[firefighter3931]

Neal, the problem with the paper gaskets that come with the 1215 gasket set is that they are too thick. This has been an issue for many years and that's why i don't use them. The correct gasket thickness should be .015 thick and i think the gaskets that come with the kit are twice as thick and this creates port mis-alignment. I believe someone makes the thinner gaskets if you feel that you want to use them.

Fwiw, i use Ultra Copper high temp RTV around the intake ports (both sides) and along the end rails with a dab in each corner to seal things up. I just snug the bolts up and let it sit overnight to let the RTV set up before final torquing. Throw a dab on the intake manifold bolts because they are wet and oil will creep up the threads and pool in the bathtub/base of intake manifold.



Ron

[maxwellwedge]

Actually the original factory gaskets were black - They are ink-stamped "REAR" in silver. I'll take a pic and post. I have been using either the Fel-Pro as above or Roger Gibson's re-pops of the originals. Both seem to work fine on all my 6-Shooters.

[maxwellwedge]

Ron we are thinking alike there  62 Max SWEET!! would you believe nobody had gasket material except the thin stuff around here? Bill the gasket set (1215) problem for me may be from my used 346 heads being surfaced a couple times, test it all dry first. I had Gagacinched the gaskets to the heads and intake then silicone d the valley pan in place thinking it all would fit! I checked my new carb fuel line set from Fine Lines against my old original and the new one's are about 3/8" longer from the brass "T"s to the carbs!! That's going to put them down and over farther moving closer to the intake, valve cover, and distributor (were it goes down to the fuel pump). Maxwellwedge was right about "having to bend the hell out of" the fuel pump (Carter M4845 with brass adapter) to vapor separator steel fuel line also!  so much for paying extra to "just assemble the correct parts".       

I don't know why no one can make this crap right.
I think people are re-popping re-pops that were never right to begin with. I clean up the originals and use them when possible. The re-pops get to spend some quality time with my tube bender.

[b5blue]

The Promax carb to intake gaskets came in all three are the "same" unlike the others (the other set had a completely different center gasket).They "almost" match the shape of the intake's carb profile. Anyway for 25.00 they will work, so game on this weekend. I'm still kind pissed about the fuel line thing after 40 years my originals are rounded on some of the nuts from being over tightened to stop leaks.

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Thats too bad about your fittings being rounded. Flare nut wrenches sure help to keep that from happening.

[b5blue]

Yup! 14 years ago when I bought it they had already been boogered up, on a sad note they are all that's left from a 70 GTX A12 car....I ran into the original owner of that car at a friend's shop...he sold the car to some young guns, they took the car, never finished paying him and proceeded to mess the thing up instead of restoring it, they junked the body and sold the motor/trans to parts unknown. Later they sold the six pack to BJ's for 200.00 to "pay their brothers hospital bill"...spelled BAIL MONEY. I was looking to change out the TM-7 high rise on my Charger and BJ sold me the six pack, a good hood (mine was very rusty and had a hole cut in it with a six pack scoop riveted on) and a proper 8 3/4 axle (mine was a modified truck axle) for 800.00! Later he gave me a set of 69 Hi Po exhaust manifolds and Hemi leaf springs for 35.00. (buy the way I offered to square up with the original owner if needed some way and being a true MoPar guy all he said was he wished he had sold me the car and wished me good luck!)        

[b5blue]

OK I just spent (wasted) an hour flipping fuel lines around trying to find any combo of assembly for these RIGHT STUFF upper fuel lines and it's crap. The 2 "S"'s for the front and center carb's aren't even the same length and in and out ends on both are not parallel so they "angle" when you try to assemble them. The rear seems too short (both ways) putting the "T" blocks too close and too far back IRONICALLY for their slightly longer center and front lines ( which are not the same length)  I'm done with RIGHT STUFF's junk...tomorrow I'll chop that crap up and make my carb set-up and tune rigg out of it and keep my original as a must match this example! Anyone know who makes upper fuel line set that fits? So far from my experience with these guys I wouldn't trust them to hook up a garden hose much less fuel or brake lines    Once again in my original post I miss identified the vendor as Fine Lines and it was RIGHT STUFF!!SORRY!!   

[Sublime/Sixpack]

I bought one set several years ago from Mopar Performance and it fit fine, but the last time I installed a Six Pack set up they were on back order so I bought the fittings, blocks, and line, then made my own. It worked out pretty good.

[b5blue]

Did ya double flair it? If I knew this was gonna happen I'd just bought a double flair rigg and made my own too!

[bill440rt]

Odd, I've never had a problem with Fine Lines' products before. 
I've got a set of SS 6-pack lines waiting to go on my setup, I'll let ya know how they work out.

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Yes, double flare.

[maxwellwedge]

I bought one set several years ago from Mopar Performance and it fit fine, but the last time I installed a Six Pack set up they were on back order so I bought the fittings, blocks, and line, then made my own. It worked out pretty good.

Yup - The Mopar Performance ones worked fine. You had to buy the whole install kit if I remember...

[b5blue]

Thanks Bill!! I'm going to check with ProMax. 

[b5blue]

OK chopped up the new fuel lines and made a test/tune rig next...the new Firecore wires and NKG XR5's go on.Any one know what to do with the vent tube on top of my new center carb? My old one didn't have that so I'm at a loss to hooking it up(Air cleaner base?)

[62 Max]

Odd, I've never had a problem with Fine Lines' products before. 
I've got a set of SS 6-pack lines waiting to go on my setup, I'll let ya know how they work out.

Bill or anyone else,if you use stainless steel lines don't use anything but a flare nut wrench to tighten them.The stainless lines need to be tight to not leak and sometimes they can be a PITA .It's real easy to round off the flare nuts with a regular open end wrench.Also,make sure you have a wrench that will fit your fuel inlet fitting so you have something to tighten the line to instead of putting all the pressure on the bowl threads.

[firefighter3931]

Bill or anyone else,if you use stainless steel lines don't use anything but a flare nut wrench to tighten them.The stainless lines need to be tight to not leak and sometimes they can be a PITA .It's real easy to round off the flare nuts with a regular open end wrench.Also,make sure you have a wrench that will fit your fuel inlet fitting so you have something to tighten the line to instead of putting all the pressure on the bowl threads.

Good advice....SS lines are a PITA to seal up. The material is very hard so you need to apply some leverage to seat the flared ends up properly. 



Ron

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Any one know what to do with the vent tube on top of my new center carb? My old one didn't have that so I'm at a loss to hooking it up(Air cleaner base?)

Some people just leave it open, I'd run it to the right side valve cover breather. Buy the breather that will accept the air cleaner hose (large) as well as the smaller nipple for the carb vent.

[dstryr]

On my fuel lines I usually put a little grease on the back of the flare so that the flare nut doesn't bind on the flair and twist it while tightening.  Sometimes the nut will want to twist the line just a little and then it could back off from vibration.   I keep the grease off the threads, though. 

[62 Max]

On my fuel lines I usually put a little grease on the back of the flare so that the flare nut doesn't bind on the flair and twist it while tightening.  Sometimes the nut will want to twist the line just a little and then it could back off from vibration.   I keep the grease off the threads, though. 

Frank,one more trick.Flare copper tubing,cut off the flare and use it between the fitting and line.They come right apart and you don't need to tighten them until they won't move anymore.

[maxwellwedge]

If it is the horizontal bowl vent valve tube it usually goes to a nipple on the breather. You can put an 8-10" hose on the tube and let it run towards the back.

[mauve66]

teflon tape works great on preventing fuel leaks and not having to tighten the hell out of the fittings either

[Tom Q]

I have one six pak set up that requires staggered jetting-one step difference in jet size in the ctr carb only.  The LM1 wideband a-f meter does not lie.

As far as using ss lines I don't think that ss is required or needed.  SS is unforgiving and will cause sealing problems sooner or later. I use a quick removal set up with old lines cut for rubber gas lines till the tune is correct and then I install the regular lines when finished.

[john108]

There are seals designed to work on flair tube fittings.
Many exist but the one I am thinking of is Voi-Shan conical seals.
http://www.toolsforaircraft.com/vsimain.html
Cheaper copies are available.

[62 Max]

teflon tape works great on preventing fuel leaks and not having to tighten the hell out of the fittings either

Teflon tape works on the threads but is useless on flare fitting seats.

[maxwellwedge]

I have got and have had many Six-Packs and have never used any tapes or sealers and never had a leak at the lines. I am blessed. 

[b5blue]

THANK YOU FOR EVERY ONES INPUT!! 

[firefighter3931]

I have one six pak set up that requires staggered jetting-one step difference in jet size in the ctr carb only.  The LM1 wideband a-f meter does not lie.

Thanks for the real world feedback Tom. Those LM-1's are awesome and i'm sure a very handy tuning tool. I need to get one at some point....much easier than reading plugs.

Do you remember off hand which side was jetted richer on that center carb ?



Ron

[62 Max]

I have got and have had many Six-Packs and have never used any tapes or sealers and never had a leak at the lines. I am blessed. 

You are not blessed,you just used the correct (probably original) parts and did it the right way.

[b5blue]

I was wondering the same as Firefighter, what kind of set-up is it on..now I wish I had taken a peek inside my newly Holley rebuilt center carb. to see the power valve and jetting.Also on the stainless topic, I was sent a stainless ground clip (from fuel line to sender) after ordering a regular one (free upgrade, vendor out of others) and months later when I got around to using it (after cleaning the tank and fuel lines from sitting unused for 6 years) would not hold on tightly to the lines. It seemed to me the stainless will not hold a "spring effect" you go to clip it on and the tangs spread but then it's too loose. I ended up throwing it out and made my own. Now that I'm saying it, I got to order another! There was such a rush to get this car on the road I did what I had to in the last 2 days before my son took the old beater to USF.

[b5blue]

IT LIVES!! Ron's Firecore wires make a HUGE difference! No more vacuum leaks! Blocking the manifold heat has pretty much stopped the reaction time for the chokes thermal spring tho. I ran it for 15-20 min. and temp was at 180 but it didn't budge. Can someone answer 2 questions for me #1 To adjust float bowl level up do I turn the nut clockwise or counter clockwise? (mine read low and I went almost a full turn both ways and didn't see fuel) #2 The distributor vacuum pod is adjustable with a small Allen wrench, again clockwise advances or retards (increase/decrease action) Thanks! 

[62 Max]

IT LIVES!! Ron's Firecore wires make a HUGE difference! No more vacuum leaks! Blocking the manifold heat has pretty much stopped the reaction time for the chokes thermal spring tho. I ran it for 15-20 min. and temp was at 180 but it didn't budge. Can someone answer 2 questions for me #1 To adjust float bowl level up do I turn the nut clockwise or counter clockwise? (mine read low and I went almost a full turn both ways and didn't see fuel) #2 The distributor vacuum pod is adjustable with a small Allen wrench, again clockwise advances or retards (increase/decrease action) Thanks! 

Counter clockwise will raise the level.

[b5blue]

THANKS!

[firefighter3931]

That's fantastics news Neal....now start tuning that badboy and show us some burning rubber ! 



Ron

[b5blue]

Well the adjusters for wet bowl level are down so far that the nuts don't engage! That's why I got no change in fuel level earlier. Now I got to figure out how to get them "up", without damaging anything.(if it isn't too late) Monday I'll go to a nut and bolt shop and see if they can match the size and threads to the "lock screw" and run a screw with a nut on it and jamb it to the adjuster to back it out. They just clear the top of the bowl housing. This must have happened fighting the extra fuel pressure from the other pump. 

[62 Max]

Well the adjusters for wet bowl level are down so far that the nuts don't engage! That's why I got no change in fuel level earlier. Now I got to figure out how to get them "up", without damaging anything.(if it isn't too late) Monday I'll go to a nut and bolt shop and see if they can match the size and threads to the "lock screw" and run a screw with a nut on it and jamb it to the adjuster to back it out. They just clear the top of the bowl housing. This must have happened fighting the extra fuel pressure from the other pump. 

Be careful with what you get,thread is an odd ball 1/4x32.

[maxwellwedge]

Well the adjusters for wet bowl level are down so far that the nuts don't engage! That's why I got no change in fuel level earlier. Now I got to figure out how to get them "up", without damaging anything.(if it isn't too late) Monday I'll go to a nut and bolt shop and see if they can match the size and threads to the "lock screw" and run a screw with a nut on it and jamb it to the adjuster to back it out. They just clear the top of the bowl housing. This must have happened fighting the extra fuel pressure from the other pump. 

I think if you have to adjust that far either your floats have bent tangs and/or your needle and seat are thewrong type. The only good way to check is take the bowls off and see what is going on with your float height.

[maxwellwedge]

I have got and have had many Six-Packs and have never used any tapes or sealers and never had a leak at the lines. I am blessed. 

You are not blessed,you just used the correct (probably original) parts and did it the right way.

Darn - I wanted to be blessed. 

[b5blue]

1/4 32 Thanks! After running around "testing" screws and nuts I ended up hoping they made such a thing. These had to been down for some time, I remember changing around a bunch of settings just to keep it getting me to work and driving real easy. When my son moved up to Gainesville I just parked it and started saving money. I can tell already weak spark from the NAPA Beldon wires and the gasket leaks on the intake and center carb. were what I was chasing. I remember we set wet level right after start up OK. After that I remember it gulping fuel and just not running right. Finding no vacuum signal at all for the outboards from center carb. had me stumped, I knew that meant they they "dumped" as soon as I cracked open the throttle. I checked wet level after leaning out idle on the outboards and it was way too high,that must have been when I cranked these down too far. I may end up pulling the bowls, now is the time to get this right! 

[62 Max]

I have got and have had many Six-Packs and have never used any tapes or sealers and never had a leak at the lines. I am blessed. 

You are not blessed,you just used the correct (probably original) parts and did it the right way.

Darn - I wanted to be blessed. 

You are blessed!

[Ghoste]

It's like you stole that photo from my fridge before I was married.  Eerie deja vu.

[maxwellwedge]

And my brand too.....you shouldn't have! 

[b5blue]

OK floats are up! Getting better and better! Now whats up with me seeing these 179.00 vacuum retard with an electric hookup on them for distributors on eBay? My FSM has got nothing on them. There listed as a "six pack" item? Also I've found a "green vacuum delay" for 440 and Hemi ? Anyone enlighten me?

[maxwellwedge]

OK floats are up! Getting better and better! Now whats up with me seeing these 179.00 vacuum retard with an electric hookup on them for distributors on eBay? My FSM has got nothing on them. There listed as a "six pack" item? Also I've found a "green vacuum delay" for 440 and Hemi ? Anyone enlighten me?

Vacuum retard -It's a 1971 440-6 thing - don't worry about it. Also on 70 440-4bbl.
Green can - '69 Hemi 4-speed thing.

A standard single point, dual point or electronic, properly set-up is fine.

[b5blue]

Thanks again Maxwellwedge!  Just took it out for some gas...what a difference! Getting closer... idle is smooth and strong...pulling vacuum @ 17 as Firefighter predicted. Next I'll massage timing and figure out vacuum pod adjustment on distributor then go back into the carbs, like I thought the rubber cones for the float height are crappy, got a good source to order 2 new ones? I don't think they were replaced last rebuild (like I asked). I couldn't open it up there were cops all over (three sitting at the exit to the neighborhood) and three more in the 3 mile round trip to Sunoco! Figures first time out after all this work and replacing the rear springs! I can't wait to get the new 145K torque converter in and the 727's shift returned to stock (It shifts "hard" BAM in 2nd and 3rd, a leftover from it's "drag racing" years)         

[b5blue]

OK got the new needle seats in just in time! One of the "O" rings crumbled to pieces removing it! Re set wet level to just weeping on the out boards and even in the center and went out for a spin. Running great now, fires right up and gets busy when you stomp it. No lag but with the high stall in there the RPM's jump past where it would be anyway. In the next week or two I hope to get the 145K converter in and that will put me at std. six pack settings, same cam, similar heads (346), same valve springs, fuel lines setup, 3.23 sure grip, matched "T" bars and rear springs (I even got the A-12 steel plates under the LCA bumpers and reinforcing plates under them too) Next will be the 11 3/4 rotors (slider type) and a column rebuild. Thanks to everyone for their input!! I'll post what happens next as things develop!       

[maxwellwedge]

Happy Happy Joy Joy for you!

[b5blue]

Thanks for your input on both threads Maxwellwedge! Now I'm eager to finish the running gear...

[maxwellwedge]

 

[firefighter3931]

Ok Neal, we need proof.....where's the tire smoke !!!! 



Ron

[b5blue]

Hey Ron! I bought "Vista for dummies" yesterday, I'm working on it! (I'm lucky to find my way in and out of here) 

[firefighter3931]

Hey Ron! I bought "Vista for dummies" yesterday, I'm working on it! (I'm lucky to find my way in and out of here) 

You're doing just fine...keep at it. 


Ron

[b5blue]

OK update! fiddled with the settings more, I've got to get over to see Chuck at CJ's Auto to set idle RPMs and timing (no tack) but everything's going good! I've installed new rear springs, replaced the front LCAs with ones I re bushed and had reinforcing plates welded on to, found a slightly bent strut rod and replaced it along with both sides strut rod bushings, new standard 440/Hemi torsion bars, idler arm, set ride height, rebuilt the steering coupler, replaced the key lock and ignition switch and fabricated a bushing for in between the upper steering column bearing and the steering wheel and got it aligned at a Goodyear Dealer who "speaks fluent vintage MoPar" (finally!). Caster is off -1.6 on the left and -1 on the right still so I've got to get off set UCA bushings to fix that when I put the 11 3/4 disk set up on. Next is the 145K torque converter and get rid of the Green axle bearings (got a sweet pair of MoPar rear axle service pack sets from member "partsalot") Then I will be ready to burn up them back tires! (oh yea and pissed off 2 ricers today...no you may not cut me off!  )

[b5blue]

OK, vacuum gauge off manifold reads 17lb. @ idle as I mentioned earlier. Off the tube (center carb.) shown for "dist." it reads 5lb. @ idle and if I so much as tap the throttle it shoots to 20lb. (?). Should I go with manifold vacuum and adjust vacuum advance accordingly or stick with center carb. and adjust for tiny 5lb. signal? I got stuck in a traffic jam for about 45 min. and my temp started climbing up (got to 210). I'm sure vacuum advance is needed as high temp stuck in traffic was never a problem in the past. Mileage is suffering also @ about 6-8 mpg in the last 150 miles or so.(I did a search on vacuum advance and found allot of really good info...thanks again guys!) Anyone running a mostly stock set up six pack please give me input! THANKS!! Neal   

[maxwellwedge]

You need to go with the ported vacuum for the distributor on the center carb. Manifold vacuum will yank that poor little arm right off your plate  Check the FSM for the dist. vacuum specs. I would do it for you but I am at work trying to make enough money to buy Doug's Daytona! 

[b5blue]

Thanks once more! The FSM is for a 70 and my dist. is 72 NAPA rebuild, but I should be OK! GET THAT CAR!!!  (What threw me was the friggin jump to 20!!!)

[firefighter3931]

You need to go with the ported vacuum for the distributor on the center carb. Manifold vacuum will yank that poor little arm right off your plate  Check the FSM for the dist. vacuum specs. I would do it for you but I am at work trying to make enough money to buy Doug's Daytona! 

Jim is correct....manifold vacuum doesn't work well because as soon as you hammer the throttle the vac signal drops to zero and retards your timing. 

I would set the distributor up with 16-18* of base timing and 36* @2800-3000 rpm. This may require some distributor mods depending on what advance plate is currently installed. The plates can be welded up to limit the mechanical advance. I have the specs for plate slot measurement if you need them Neal.

The poor milage and hot engine temps are typical of a retarded timing curve and/or lean carb issue. 

I allways tune the ignition curve first before worrying about the jetting. 



Ron

[b5blue]

I put a light on the timing and @ 16 initial I get a whopping advance to 21 @ appox 2600-3000 RPM...popped the cap off and noticed the rotor had black "tracks" in the center like it had been firing to the shaft (probably from the crappy Beldin NAPA wires resistance). Ran to NAPA got a new "best you got" rotor and when I put it on noticed the dist. shaft has a fair amount of wobble in it and lifted "up" about 1/16-1/8 inch when I pulled up to remove the rotor! When I twist the shaft to check advance action it's stiff and seems to bind up at what I guess is about 5-6 degrees explaining the 21 @ 3K. When I hook up the vacuum advance put it in gear and tap the gas peddle it dies instantly. I'm thinking this dist. isn't worth trying to fix/modify.   

[maxwellwedge]

Probably less than that because that's 21* at the crank. Sounds like that distributor has seen better days. Heavy spring(s) and/or seized/binding advance plate and possibly shaft wobble. Do you have access to a distributor machine to give it a quick check? Invaluable for checking a lot of stuff including vacuum advance. Failing all that, get a new distributor. Is your current one single or dual point?

[b5blue]

That's just it, this dist. is a fresh NAPA rebuild...ordered a 73 440 to get one pre lean burn (with pointless ECU). this thing hasn't seen 1500 miles since out of the box. More new "bad" stuff! (I replaced the old one mostly because it had a bad crack in the housing and had been curved for drag race w no vacuum advance working and figured this would put me back to a "stock" set up)Don't get me wrong about NAPA I've used their stuff for over 30 years all over the USA but lately they have dropped the ball a few times. My local guys are trying real hard to help me. I keep trying to go common seance middle of the road and ending up wishing (in this case) I had just bought a whole new MoPar set up even though the new set-up has too aggressive of a curve for a daily driver situation. Chuck said he would fix it and modify the curve to what I need for 50-100 bucks, but I'm just pissed that a new rebuild needs anything and re-thinking my approach on ignition since finding the wobble, maybe 440 parts cores are mostly shot after 30 years?       

[firefighter3931]

Neal, do yourself a favor and order up a new MP distributor. The MP dizzy's have Mallory advance mechanisms installed and have adjustable stops so you can custom tailor the amount of mechanical advance. If you want to slow the curve down it's simply a matter of installing a stiffer spring. 


Ron

[b5blue]

Thanks Ron! That's the direction my thinking was heading. Reliability is a must with this thing or I've got to give up...and I'm not giving up. I just can't get over all the gremlins that crept into this project.   

[SeattleCharger]

    god, this stuff is complicated 

[b5blue]

OK (speaking of complicated) my big block book shows 4 part numbers for MP dist but has no reference? Ron could you get me a part number for the one you described?

[firefighter3931]

OK (speaking of complicated) my big block book shows 4 part numbers for MP dist but has no reference? Ron could you get me a part number for the one you described?

Here ya go Neal :

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=DCC%2D3690432&N=700+4294925143+4294839065+4294881256+400172+115&autoview=sku


Nice piece....comes complete with a new Tan cap and rotor 



Ron

[BigBlockSam]

thanks for all the great info guys . i'm building a 68 440 hp motor for my daytona replica. i'm taking the 6 pack set up off my 68 charger r/t . i have the original intake and carb for it . i'm just rebuilding the carb . it's a #' matching car . i'd like to get it back that way .

the daytona's just for fun . the six pack needs to be freshen up . it's hesitating , BIG TIME ,  when you stomp her.

Rene

[b5blue]

Thanks again Ron! In a frustrated panic yesterday I ordered a "lifetime warranty" rebuild from Advance Auto...it will be here soon and I'll do what I can with it...if it sucks too I'll take it back. But I'm getting one of these as soon as I can and I'll keep (Hopefully) the Advance one as a back up. Rene I'm glad any of this helps you that was the main point of this topic!! The first thing I would check is float levels and idle adjustments, if your outboards are set right you can take the air cleaner off and with your fingers (kinda make an upside down peace sign) and plug the 2 "outer most air bleeds" on each outboard carb >.  . .  .< one at a time. If idle goes up=too rich, if idle goes down=too lean. This assumes you know plugs, wires, timing ect. are all decent. The next checks go into "transition" but try that first and let us know what you have and what your running.

[b5blue]

DAMN! Here we go again! I tried to order a dist. from Ron's Link....they were out of stock, Mancini showed in stock called and they had none. Called Todd at Marsh Performance and he said he would pull one from a kit...told him to just send the whole kit (ECU,wiring,resistor and dist.) He said it should be there Wed., Friday comes still no Dist.! I try calling Todd and get no answer ("messages full"). A check with my bank shows no transaction (?) Finally JEG's has one in stock and it should be here Tue.!!! What's happening with Ma MoPar and our supply line! (Todd said he had 19 on "back order") I'm getting a damn tracking # this time! (sorry for the rant...I put off buying one for 14 years!!)

[b5blue]

OK now we are getting somewhere...the new MoPar dist. is in and after some testing initial timing is at 12. I'm finely able to drop idle down to a near normal amount. Next I'll keep testing the vacuum settings on the pod. Word to the wise on this, never waste time and money on a re-built dist. they just clean them up and slap them together.Both of the ones I got could not have been farther apart from each other and they should have been identical. What a waste of time and money. Thanks for your input Ron!