My "Sick Pack" 440

[b5blue]

After some great help from members and searching previous threads with really good "links" I wanted to give a heads up to everyone contemplating a six pack in the near future. First off I've run into a problem with the center carb to manifold gasket...Fel-Pro's is too narrow in the rear leaving a tiny gap where the slot in the base, that feeds the large vacuum tube on the passenger side is. Several different Holly 2300 gaskets (from different sources) were tried and all did the same thing. The resulting "leak of vacuum" can raise hell with the action of your outboard carbs, idle, and distributor's vacuum retard. ProMax is aware of the problem and makes their own, I'll know for sure when they get here so check your gaskets to the intake and to the carbs before installing, some gaskets just barely cover, that is not good enough as mine failed shortly (done by a well meaning carb shop).The next thing that I ran into is that the valley pan should have intake gaskets above and below it to properly seal. When I ordered my intake set and clearly stated I was installing a six pack I assumed since it was a MoPar set it was complete and installed it...and it leaked at the heat crossover and I got small oil leaks into the intake runners of the heads and even a little on top of the valley pan. The problem is when you order the Fel-Pro 1215 gasket set with the 4 intake gaskets and valley pan (with the heat block-off) the gaskets may be too thick making the intake sit a tiny bit too high to get the intake bolts started. Frustrated I ground out a little of my intake's bolt holes to make it fit and later realized a better approach would have been to find thinner intake gaskets.FYI I'm trying running the heat block-off with just 1/8 holes drilled in ether side(from a recommended link) to see if it helps with a "heat soak" problem I've dealt with in the past (my intake is aluminum) Some how 14 years ago with the help of friends I got all this right, the thing ran problem free for 7 years till the motor gave up. After sitting in storage for six years then taking great care to order what should have been correct parts I'm warning to do your own checking! (I have yet to find all six pack info in one source)               

[firefighter3931]

Looking forward to your progress Neal. The 6-pack induction is a lot of work to dial in but on a mild 440 they are a nice setup and look cool.     Any plans to stagger the jetting ?


Ron

[b5blue]

Hey Ron! The only staggering going on right now is ME! I called Todd at Marsh and let him know about the gasket issue, right now I'm hoping to sort out the details I missed in the rush to get the car out on the road.(my son needed the beater for USF)Once I get the new center carb (that I may not have needed) on and the XR5's with the FIRECORE's (Thanks!) I want to baseline everything to see where I'm at. The only reference I've run into on staggered jets so far was an article from MoPar Action I believe...they were un-staggering a six pack for an engine they had heavily modified. Once again any info I can collect will be appreciated. I'm trying to build this with an eye on mileage to see how good it can get (hence the 145K torque converter and 3.23 gears).         

[firefighter3931]

Hey Ron! The only staggering going on right now is ME!
     

Quit staggering and get to work ! 

With the "resto" cam the stock jetting should be in the ballpark. One thing you might want to look at is the power valve...do an idle vacuum reading in gear and see what you've got once it's up and running. That cam should pull a ton of vacuum with the dual plane 6-pack intake. Most holley carbs come with a 6.5 PV but if you're making 12in of vac in gear the PV should be upsized to help with transistion from idle to main circuit. This helps bigtime with off-idle bog at full throttle. For reference ; i like to size the PV 2-3 hg lower than idle vacuum. Power enrichment comes in sooner. 


Ron

[62 Max]

For what its worth,the only base gasket I have ever used and will contine to use is the original brown heavy cardboard gasket.I machine all my bases but it is very forgiving if you have a base that is not true.They don't leak.

My Superbird has one of the old Street Hemi 284/474 grind cams from 25+ yrs ago,center carb has # 66 jets, idle feed .040,power valve channel restriction .043 throttle side,.052 diaphragm side,6.5 valve.,front plate drilled .089,rear .093.Intake gasket is 413 truck with one 1/4" hole on passenger side heat crossover.12 hg at idle (1000 rpm), timing,38* total.

Dana 3.54,4spd.Has always averaged 16/17 mpg.Car runs as good as you would ever want.Has been the same since I put it together in 1984.

[bill440rt]

Wow. Good info.
I ordered my 6-pack setup from ProMax as well. GREAT company to deal with. Ben is a true gentleman. 

It came all pre-assembled with their special Max-Pack baseplates, dyno'd & dialed in close to my engine combo. I got the FelPro gasket kit from Mancini. It has the tin valley pan with the black intake gaskets. Any problems with these other than getting the bolts started? I'm using ARP's intake bolt kit. 

[b5blue]

Ron we are thinking alike there  62 Max SWEET!! would you believe nobody had gasket material except the thin stuff around here? Bill the gasket set (1215) problem for me may be from my used 346 heads being surfaced a couple times, test it all dry first. I had Gagacinched the gaskets to the heads and intake then silicone d the valley pan in place thinking it all would fit! I checked my new carb fuel line set from RIGHT STUFF against my old original and the new one's are about 3/8" longer from the brass "T"s to the carbs!! That's going to put them down and over farther moving closer to the intake, valve cover, and distributor (were it goes down to the fuel pump). Maxwellwedge was right about "having to bend the hell out of" the fuel pump (Carter M4845 with brass adapter) to vapor separator steel fuel line also!  so much for paying extra to "just assemble the correct parts".  In my original post I miss identified the vendor as Fine Lines!! I am very sorry it was RIGHT STUFF NOT Fine Lines!!        

[bill440rt]

Great. More good info.
I got a set of stainless carb lines from Fine Lines. I gotta swap them out before it goes on the engine. I'll pre-assemble the lines & compare first before bolting them on.

Looks like the Fel-Pro gasket set may work out for me after all. 

[firefighter3931]

Neal, the problem with the paper gaskets that come with the 1215 gasket set is that they are too thick. This has been an issue for many years and that's why i don't use them. The correct gasket thickness should be .015 thick and i think the gaskets that come with the kit are twice as thick and this creates port mis-alignment. I believe someone makes the thinner gaskets if you feel that you want to use them.

Fwiw, i use Ultra Copper high temp RTV around the intake ports (both sides) and along the end rails with a dab in each corner to seal things up. I just snug the bolts up and let it sit overnight to let the RTV set up before final torquing. Throw a dab on the intake manifold bolts because they are wet and oil will creep up the threads and pool in the bathtub/base of intake manifold.



Ron

[maxwellwedge]

Actually the original factory gaskets were black - They are ink-stamped "REAR" in silver. I'll take a pic and post. I have been using either the Fel-Pro as above or Roger Gibson's re-pops of the originals. Both seem to work fine on all my 6-Shooters.

[maxwellwedge]

Ron we are thinking alike there  62 Max SWEET!! would you believe nobody had gasket material except the thin stuff around here? Bill the gasket set (1215) problem for me may be from my used 346 heads being surfaced a couple times, test it all dry first. I had Gagacinched the gaskets to the heads and intake then silicone d the valley pan in place thinking it all would fit! I checked my new carb fuel line set from Fine Lines against my old original and the new one's are about 3/8" longer from the brass "T"s to the carbs!! That's going to put them down and over farther moving closer to the intake, valve cover, and distributor (were it goes down to the fuel pump). Maxwellwedge was right about "having to bend the hell out of" the fuel pump (Carter M4845 with brass adapter) to vapor separator steel fuel line also!  so much for paying extra to "just assemble the correct parts".       

I don't know why no one can make this crap right.
I think people are re-popping re-pops that were never right to begin with. I clean up the originals and use them when possible. The re-pops get to spend some quality time with my tube bender.

[b5blue]

The Promax carb to intake gaskets came in all three are the "same" unlike the others (the other set had a completely different center gasket).They "almost" match the shape of the intake's carb profile. Anyway for 25.00 they will work, so game on this weekend. I'm still kind pissed about the fuel line thing after 40 years my originals are rounded on some of the nuts from being over tightened to stop leaks.

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Thats too bad about your fittings being rounded. Flare nut wrenches sure help to keep that from happening.

[b5blue]

Yup! 14 years ago when I bought it they had already been boogered up, on a sad note they are all that's left from a 70 GTX A12 car....I ran into the original owner of that car at a friend's shop...he sold the car to some young guns, they took the car, never finished paying him and proceeded to mess the thing up instead of restoring it, they junked the body and sold the motor/trans to parts unknown. Later they sold the six pack to BJ's for 200.00 to "pay their brothers hospital bill"...spelled BAIL MONEY. I was looking to change out the TM-7 high rise on my Charger and BJ sold me the six pack, a good hood (mine was very rusty and had a hole cut in it with a six pack scoop riveted on) and a proper 8 3/4 axle (mine was a modified truck axle) for 800.00! Later he gave me a set of 69 Hi Po exhaust manifolds and Hemi leaf springs for 35.00. (buy the way I offered to square up with the original owner if needed some way and being a true MoPar guy all he said was he wished he had sold me the car and wished me good luck!)        

[b5blue]

OK I just spent (wasted) an hour flipping fuel lines around trying to find any combo of assembly for these RIGHT STUFF upper fuel lines and it's crap. The 2 "S"'s for the front and center carb's aren't even the same length and in and out ends on both are not parallel so they "angle" when you try to assemble them. The rear seems too short (both ways) putting the "T" blocks too close and too far back IRONICALLY for their slightly longer center and front lines ( which are not the same length)  I'm done with RIGHT STUFF's junk...tomorrow I'll chop that crap up and make my carb set-up and tune rigg out of it and keep my original as a must match this example! Anyone know who makes upper fuel line set that fits? So far from my experience with these guys I wouldn't trust them to hook up a garden hose much less fuel or brake lines    Once again in my original post I miss identified the vendor as Fine Lines and it was RIGHT STUFF!!SORRY!!   

[Sublime/Sixpack]

I bought one set several years ago from Mopar Performance and it fit fine, but the last time I installed a Six Pack set up they were on back order so I bought the fittings, blocks, and line, then made my own. It worked out pretty good.

[b5blue]

Did ya double flair it? If I knew this was gonna happen I'd just bought a double flair rigg and made my own too!

[bill440rt]

Odd, I've never had a problem with Fine Lines' products before. 
I've got a set of SS 6-pack lines waiting to go on my setup, I'll let ya know how they work out.

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Yes, double flare.

[maxwellwedge]

I bought one set several years ago from Mopar Performance and it fit fine, but the last time I installed a Six Pack set up they were on back order so I bought the fittings, blocks, and line, then made my own. It worked out pretty good.

Yup - The Mopar Performance ones worked fine. You had to buy the whole install kit if I remember...

[b5blue]

Thanks Bill!! I'm going to check with ProMax. 

[b5blue]

OK chopped up the new fuel lines and made a test/tune rig next...the new Firecore wires and NKG XR5's go on.Any one know what to do with the vent tube on top of my new center carb? My old one didn't have that so I'm at a loss to hooking it up(Air cleaner base?)

[62 Max]

Odd, I've never had a problem with Fine Lines' products before. 
I've got a set of SS 6-pack lines waiting to go on my setup, I'll let ya know how they work out.

Bill or anyone else,if you use stainless steel lines don't use anything but a flare nut wrench to tighten them.The stainless lines need to be tight to not leak and sometimes they can be a PITA .It's real easy to round off the flare nuts with a regular open end wrench.Also,make sure you have a wrench that will fit your fuel inlet fitting so you have something to tighten the line to instead of putting all the pressure on the bowl threads.

[firefighter3931]

Bill or anyone else,if you use stainless steel lines don't use anything but a flare nut wrench to tighten them.The stainless lines need to be tight to not leak and sometimes they can be a PITA .It's real easy to round off the flare nuts with a regular open end wrench.Also,make sure you have a wrench that will fit your fuel inlet fitting so you have something to tighten the line to instead of putting all the pressure on the bowl threads.

Good advice....SS lines are a PITA to seal up. The material is very hard so you need to apply some leverage to seat the flared ends up properly. 



Ron

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Any one know what to do with the vent tube on top of my new center carb? My old one didn't have that so I'm at a loss to hooking it up(Air cleaner base?)

Some people just leave it open, I'd run it to the right side valve cover breather. Buy the breather that will accept the air cleaner hose (large) as well as the smaller nipple for the carb vent.