Daytona Value

[73rallye440magnum]

Hey guys, im trying to talk my dad into buying a daytona (unrestored) for investment oppurtunities, as in restore it and sell it for profit. How much could you expect to spend on an extremely well done to original restoration. Car is numbers matching 440 AT, not sure on colors. complete with window mouldings, nose, wing, all the goodies for XX car. Car is somewhat rusty as seen from pics. try not to get all hyped up about it, he said he'd consider it if he could come out alright on it. just looking for a price on resto kind of, keep in mind i could do some work (trim resto, small parts)

[Ghoste]

Kind of an open ended question really.  Without seeing the car, we have no idea what it needs but as an "average", if you took it to a professional, you could easily spend over 100 grand.  By professional, I'm talking about a place like Roger Gibsons, not Joe's A-1 Autobody.  You could also spend 20 or 30 on resto and make out like gangbusters.
Not much of an answer I realize but there isn't much detail here.

[Troy]

You could spend close to $150k on the resto and it would be a concourse car when finished. Heck, you might even still make a profit these days but that really depends on the initial purchase price. If you were best buddies with an excellent body man and got decent disounts on all the parts then you could get by much cheaper. When restoring a Daytona I'd go with original sheet metal if at all possible because the final selling price will reflect that. It's hard to say without seeing the car but you're better off restoring a rusty Daytona than a 318 column shift car. You just better have deep pockets to do it right (the rusty parts are probably all the same though). You may want to check with 60_500 though to see if he knows about the particular car. I know he's looked at a lot of overpriced rusty Daytona projects. You can bet if they were good deals he'd have grabbed one by now...

Troy

[73rallye440magnum]

here's a pic, some of you may have seen this car on the net. asking price is 85k.

[73rallye440magnum]

I'm sure we'd have the car done at mcr probably, its about an hour south of where i live ( www.musclecarrestorations.com ) they have done a superbird, look at the completed gallery for mopars, i think that might be Johns car. they did the factory five cobra in last 2 months HOT ROD magazine. I've been there, they do stunning restos. I know that 69 RT/SE has been brought up a few times here at dc.com.

[jaak]

my opinion.... I do not think this would be a profit maker having to fork out 85g's upfront, meaning a quick turn around.... if it was restored (concourse) and you sat on it a few years... I would say yes. How rusty is it??? how much is missing?? If there is substantial rust, you may need to find a rust free 318 parts car (and even that is costly these days) You just need to weigh everthing out and make a logical decision, and I would definately try to get the purchase price lower, good luck.

[Ghoste]

John Balow ain't coming cheap either.

[73rallye440magnum]

well, 85 is asking price... from pics it does not look terribly rusty, but you really cant see the tail panel, valences, fenders, trunk lip, all the XX special items are with the car (window mouldings, trunk lid, fenders, wing, nose, etc.) say you can get the car for 80, spend 80-100 on a very nice high end concourse resto, could this car sell for 200+?

[73rallye440magnum]

the words cheap and restoration dont really go all that well together.

[jaak]

John Balow ain't coming cheap either.

MCR does outstanding work, photos always look great and I have seen 2 or 3 cars "in person" but from what I always saw they are not 'concours" they are over restored, too perfect.   
Some one like Roger Gibson, now he's all about concours.... correct #'s, finishes, paint daubs, factory markings, even runny orange-peeled paint, Although thats not my thing, thats what a car like this needs to bring top dollar.

[73rallye440magnum]

I know what you mean by over restored... i think they could do cars as original though, go into the awards section on his site, i think he has done decent on OE certification at mopar nats with a few cars.

[jaak]

I know what you mean by over restored... i think they could do cars as original though, go into the awards section on his site, i think he has done decent on OE certification at mopar nats with a few cars.

Ok... I have checked out his site before, but just looked at a few pics, really didn't check everything out. Thats cool though, I think that is a group of workers that a passionate about cars, and that goes a long way, great work and a great attitude.

[69_500]

73Ralley you have a PM now.


Daytona's are always worth the value in my opinion, but getting your money back out of any car is hard to do sometimes. You have to find the right buyer with the right amount of cash. Only thing with a wing car is there are tons of people who want 1, and only 503 to go around. Well more relistically only about 360 to go around as the others are unaccounted for or crushed.

[451-74Charger]

Well, you could always let HLPAG do the resto, i hear they offer that service now....
A few cardboard patches, loads of Bondo, and spread the paint on with a trowel....about $30k i would guess, heck you may even be able to sell it after for $15k......wait only if it was in Orange, had 01 on the side, and didnt show there other cars up .. !!

Just think a Genuine Daytona Dukes clone....yeehaaaaw

[Ghoste]

Of the tons of people who want one though, only a handful can pay what you need to make the car profitable.  Being a Daytona, you will make money on it.  I think even when the musclecar bubble bursts (and I think it may be softening already), Daytona's and Hemi Cuda's are the superstars and will continue to be strong when other cars aren't.
That being said, you will still have to find that person with 1/4 million in disposable income who wants your car.
This could be a good example of why it is always said that you should never buy a restoration project (or any classic car) as an investment but because you like and want the car.

[69_500]

There are still plenty of people out there who have more money than brains. If the market says a HEMI Cuda is worth $600K and the bubble burst, there is still going to be people spending $600K on it. There is plenty of idiots who have tons of money.

Heck in my opinion my 500 is only worth about $50K, but had offers at shows of $90+, but in reality where could I get another 500 for that?

[Ghoste]

At the risk of getting too off topic, do you not think that if the bubble bursts, the strong cars (as I've called them) will hold their own but continue at a more normal pace, leaving a lot of the marginal (where I rightly or wrongly tend to group the more money than brains buyers) players looking for the next big trend?
Just seeking your opinion.  I guess I figure that if you have a 500, it's a topic you've given a lot of thought to.

[69_500]

In my opinion the strong cars as you called them, being the Daytona's and HEMI Cuda's and such I think will lose some value too. Although they won't hit bottom like some of the other cars. I see the inflated prices of DOH General Lee's at the current moment and I think that their inflated prices is going to drop hard and fast at any minute. Then there are other cars that are going crazy and those being the little A body cars. The Duster's and Demon's weren't ever expensive cars yet now some of those are going for some crazy money. I don't think it can last forever. Its definately a good time to dump a few cars if you have some you want to sell and make money on. However its a horrible time to  try to go out and pick up a car that you want to keep for a long time. I don't see the prices of the wing cars or the HEMI cars going down a whole lot. The average Daytona that is restored that I've seen sold in the past year probably averaged about $160K. Some as high as $220, others as low as $120. However I don't think they will stay at that kind of price for too long. I think when the bubble burst they will go down some in price but not back down to the late 80's prices of $35-40K or anything. I think they will flatten out and stay around $120-135K for probably the next 5-7 years.

[hemigeno]

There was a thread about this particular car when it was on the 'Bag a while back. ? We talked about what a resto added to the initial cost would do for that car. ? IMHO it's currently a break-even proposition at best (to restore it correctly) unless the market continues to rise.

Here's the link to the previous thread:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,3889.0.html

[Ghoste]

I've mentioned before that I work part time for an old car auction house and beginning by the end of the summer I saw the market getting very soft.   One year ago, people could make decent money on Hemi clones and recently those have been unwanted as an example.   I guess I figure the fakes are the point guards on the coming trends.
The last auction I worked was in the end of September and a lot of cars went unsold.   The common refrain was that it's now a buyers market but the sellers haven't quite realized it.   We'll see what happens in January but much of what is seen on TV is bs.   The real indicator are the cars that actually sell and change ownership and get trucked to a new destination.   There is a lot of smoke and mirrors involved.
That being said, if I knew so much, I'd buy and sell cars and become an easy billionaire.
Eventually you will get your money out of the car but you may have to sit on it a few years as 69 500 points out.

[chargervert]

I would build a clone instead.A well built clone,will run you about 50k,and he would be able to drive,and enjoy the car.If you want to throw the coin for an original wingcar,you have to factor in how much you want to drive the car.If you are just going to restore the car to flip it,there is not a lot of room for profit,with an 85k asking price!Only the ones that are concourse restored are bringing the astronomical prices,and the resto cost will be very high also.If you want to buy cars to flip,theres more money to be made by buying the right E bodies!

[Ghoste]

Not necessarily.  There is a guy here in town that was trying to make a business of flipping E-bodies and he is about to get out of it.  The media hype on those cars is so strong that everyone is beginning to clue in on the value.
There are plenty of flipping deals still out there to be sure, but you have to search and have cash in hand.

[73rallye440magnum]

thanks for pointing that out hemigeno, bidding went up to 56k, gives you a slight idea of what its worth, 85k in my opinion is quite high, i have also noticed prices starting to drop.

[Blown70]

This is at most a personal choice,  It is a rare car that needs a good resto, which, as stated will not be cheap.  I really could not see spending that much 85, on it.  Maybe 60.

However the question remains as to what to do with it. Concourse Restore, or driver condition,

I personally do not want to have a car that I look at.  I had one I just was too afraid to drive...... Never again,

Tom

[451-74Charger]

The only reason i want to be affraid of driving my Charger, is Scary power.
If i had to sit and just look at it, i wouldnt bother buying it.
Chargers (even Daytonas) need to go play !!

[Blown70]

The only reason i want to be affraid of driving my Charger, is Scary power.
If i had to sit and just look at it, i wouldnt bother buying it.
Chargers (even Daytonas) need to go play !!

I agree 100%

[BigBlockSam]

i know this car, i passed on it before this guy bought it.i was offered the car for $25000 .  yrs ago through the winged warriors. it needs everything. and whats there is rust. he had it up on ebay twice and it didn't sell. if you would   love to own a daytona and it's a labor of love, na . i would still look for a differant car. rite now the wing car market has fallen abit. that car would not be good for an investment. i am looking for a superbird, they use to be out of my price range but now there getting closer.

[BigBlockSam]

don't use ebay for a price comparison. those big cars have alot of shill bidding. you see wing cars go up to $180000. funny that they never hit the reserve. the last two real wing cars that i saw hit the reserve on ebay was a white bird fully restored , that was in the $80000
's and there's another white bird on there now that hit the reserve at $71000. the market has defiantly gotten soft. Rene

[Ghoste]

Don't use any auction as a price guide.  There is plenty of shill bidding at a live auction too and quite often you end up bidding against yourself.  There is a reason they maintain a carnival atmosphere.

[69_500]

Auctions aren't a very good gauge of what the actual market value of a car is in my opinion. However they are a decent clue. There have been plenty of the Daytona's to be sold at prices ranging from $165-210K over the past 6 months. However I can only think of 1 of those that was at an auction. Most of the Daytona's I see for sale on Ebay never meet their reserves, and are sold long after the auction ends.

[48chebbie]

better be very careful with this car in particular. there are a few threads on the net about this car. check the numbers and the guys info close,you will find that this car is not a daytona,but a charger 500.

[hemigeno]

better be very careful with this car in particular. there are a few threads on the net about this car. check the numbers and the guys info close,you will find that this car is not a daytona,but a charger 500.

If you're referring to the Moparts.com thread, I think that thread got a little off course.  They started talking about another VIN that had nothing to do with this car.  Then all of a sudden, that VIN was assumed to be the VIN of this yellow car.  This is a real Daytona, not a 500 being masqueraded as a wing car.

I started to say something on Moparts, but I usually try to stay out of the fracases over there if I can. 

Geno

[48chebbie]

i was wondering where they got the VIN over there,i never saw it in the for sale ad for the car. real daytona or not,still ain't worth $85K 
$20K maybe,if you were REAL ambitious.

[Ghoste]

Unless, of course, somebody owns one of those goofy looking, flying DeLoreans and they know something we don't about Daytona values about to suddenly explode like a nuke. 

[BigBlockSam]

thats a real daytona. it's got all the paperwork from the factory too. well documented car. if they offered it to me today at $25000 i'd take it and flip it make some cash. i couldn't afford to restore it. Rene

[69_500]

Anyone have a link to the moparts thread? I tried to look it up but didn't get anything on a search. Was just curious as to which VIN they were throwing around.

[taxspeaker]

Interesting read nearly 15 years later!

[chargerbird]

if you have to talk someone else to buy a car because you dont have the money...its a bad start..plus your dad like to retire and having money in a car like this would be better spend buying a home or rental...    s

[Birdflu]

Daytona's to be sold at prices ranging from $165-210K over the past 6 months.

Interesting that the values (of at least current 440-4bbl cars) haven't changed that much in 13 years...

[odcics2]

Daytona's to be sold at prices ranging from $165-210K over the past 6 months.

Interesting that the values (of at least current 440-4bbl cars) haven't changed that much in 13 years...

Textbook definition of a "flat market"!   

If you had a car worth $175,000. in 2005, it would have to sell for $230,549. today TO BREAK EVEN, just due to inflation.  Anything less is a loss.

Good thing most Daytona owners have the cars because we like them, not for financial gain!
Anyone can see they are a poor long term "investment" strategy!   

https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

It would be interesting to see what other cars have done in the same time frame.

[Aero426]

Daytona's to be sold at prices ranging from $165-210K over the past 6 months.

Interesting that the values (of at least current 440-4bbl cars) haven't changed that much in 13 years...

Textbook definition of a "flat market"!   

If you had a car worth $175,000. in 2005, it would have to sell for $230,549. today TO BREAK EVEN, just due to inflation.  Anything less is a loss.

Good thing most Daytona owners have the cars because we like them, not for financial gain!
Anyone can see they are a poor long term "investment" strategy!   

Look on the bright side.     You could be selling in 2008.   

[Mopar John]

Aero426,
It is interesting that you mention the year 2008 and Daytona values.
Here are some thoughts that come to mind.
We took our Daytona in for a complete restoration in the fall of that year.
The shop labor rate was $50.00 per hour.
It is now $65.00 per hour!
So if we use the 1,000 hours that were used it will cost $15,000.00 more in labor to restore the same car!
When you add in the cost of all the materials going up probably closer to $20,000.00 more.
Since 2008 the amount of original and NOS parts have shrunk and the prices of whats left have gone up.
So if you are lucky enough to have been sitting on a unrestored Daytona it will cost you more to do a lesser car!
Also during this time several project Daytonas have been restored making entry level cars harder to find and more costly.
Almost all the restored and nice Daytonas are being driven less and stored better.
But as said earlier the values for restored Daytonas have not moved much since 2008.
So your better off buying a well done already restored Daytona!
MJ

[gtx6970]

IMO.
To pay ANYTHING close to $85 for that car,,,,,,AND  pay any reputable shop to restore that car beginning to end will easily exceed 200k

SO I ask,,,whats done ( I'll say very nicely done btw )  440 Daytona sell for these days ?

[Ghoste]

The other notable thing in the last 13 years is a big recession and the bubble bursting on an out of control muscle car feeding frenzy.  We spent a lot of time recovering.

[RSI700VIPER]

IMO.
To pay ANYTHING close to $85 for that car,,,,,,AND  pay any reputable shop to restore that car beginning to end will easily exceed 200k

SO I ask,,,whats done ( I'll say very nicely done btw )  440 Daytona sell for these days ?

Just last week, a nicely restored orange auto on floor sold for $190K at BJ last year, and I saw a very nice Blue auto on floor Daytona sell for $215,000.00 at Mecum in Harrisburg.  Pretty sure the Harrisburg price included commissions so figure maybe $195K?

[odcics2]

IMO.
To pay ANYTHING close to $85 for that car,,,,,,AND  pay any reputable shop to restore that car beginning to end will easily exceed 200k

SO I ask,,,whats done ( I'll say very nicely done btw )  440 Daytona sell for these days ?

Just last week, a nicely restored orange auto on floor sold for $190K at BJ last year, and I saw a very nice Blue auto on floor Daytona sell for $215,000.00 at Mecum in Harrisburg.  Pretty sure the Harrisburg price included commissions so figure maybe $195K?

Same as getting $152,700 in 2005!!   (per inflation index)    

 

[Mopar John]

odcics2,
Since you were a previous owner of the Daytona that sold at BJ last week for $190,000.00.
Could you tell us what you think about that car?
Is it matching numbers? Does it have all original Daytona nose, hood fenders, trunk, wing etc?
When was it restored and at what level of restoration?
You mentioned the trans was modified and you have some of the original parts as an example.
Thanks! MJ

[73rallye440magnum]

Time flies, and I still don't have a Daytona.

[70 sublime]

Of the 500 or so Daytonas built , right now what is the least expensive one out there to buy ??

Least expensive can mean a lot of different things so

A driveable car no matter how pretty it looks or does not look

OR

The cheapest project Daytona out there even if it needs everything like the ravine car did

If anyone knows of a car that could be bought please share a price even if you can not share a location   

[odcics2]

odcics2,
Since you were a previous owner of the Daytona that sold at BJ last week for $190,000.00.
Could you tell us what you think about that car?
Is it matching numbers? Does it have all original Daytona nose, hood fenders, trunk, wing etc?
When was it restored and at what level of restoration?
You mentioned the trans was modified and you have some of the original parts as an example.
Thanks! MJ

I sold it to Sullivan in 1998. It went to another guy and then another! No idea what the restoration level was!
It had the original motor and trans when I had it.
Also had the original front end, when I had it.
I sold it with a BUNCH of NOS parts that went to Harold's other Daytona, from what I have heard.
I heard that things got swapped around between the 2 cars...

[Dragon Slayer]

I am curious how a restoration like this with all the auxiliary parts is viewed?  Everyone can provide input on paint/body work, etc...  It has a matching drive train, which I assume means matching body numbers and vin.  But what about correct alternator, Brake system, Power Steering, jacks, trim, interior parts, wheels, etc....   All the stuff folks nitpick on cars when looking at the For Sale pictures.  I heard mention of concourse restoration.  If this stuff is missing or not original and correct.  Do you chase it or just go with reproduction and close enough stuff.  How does that effect the price or cost of the restoration.

[Mopar John]

Dragon Slayer,
To me a concourse or concours restoration is normally a 1,000 point judging that is fine with new reproduction and replacement parts.
A popular and respected venue for this is the Muscle Car and Corvette Nationals near Chicago the weekend before thanksgiving.
On the other hand a true O.E. judging will use around 2,500 points and you receive deductions for any parts that are not original.
Right now there is not a clear cut venue for that level of judging.
The long standing Mopar Nationals judging group retired years ago and the standards have changed almost every year since.
The price of an O.E. restoration is much higher due to the attention of detail and the cost of original or NOS parts.
MJ

[nascarxx29]

His other Daytona XX29J9B379743 was a local car that started off as a stripped shell in 1978

[nascarxx29]

Hemi Daytona story xx29J9b379743

[odcics2]

Dragon Slayer,
To me a concourse or concours restoration is normally a 1,000 point judging that is fine with new reproduction and replacement parts.
A popular and respected venue for this is the Muscle Car and Corvette Nationals near Chicago the weekend before thanksgiving.
On the other hand a true O.E. judging will use around 2,500 points and you receive deductions for any parts that are not original.
Right now there is not a clear cut venue for that level of judging.
The long standing Mopar Nationals judging group retired years ago and the standards have changed almost every year since.
The price of an O.E. restoration is much higher due to the attention of detail and the cost of original or NOS parts.
MJ

Not to forget all the items, including interior and exterior trim pieces, that are date coded...

[Dragon Slayer]

Dragon Slayer,
To me a concourse or concours restoration is normally a 1,000 point judging that is fine with new reproduction and replacement parts.
A popular and respected venue for this is the Muscle Car and Corvette Nationals near Chicago the weekend before thanksgiving.
On the other hand a true O.E. judging will use around 2,500 points and you receive deductions for any parts that are not original.
Right now there is not a clear cut venue for that level of judging.
The long standing Mopar Nationals judging group retired years ago and the standards have changed almost every year since.
The price of an O.E. restoration is much higher due to the attention of detail and the cost of original or NOS parts.
MJ

Thank you.  Interested in other views.  I love OEM, but could never afford to restore one like that, nor have the patients to wait to find stuff.  But what is the price difference for close to 1000pt restoration with reproduction, versus a 75 percent but all original and OEM stuff?

To me, the old adage of do not invest in rolling stock, and it is cheaper to buy a restored car then restore a car matters.  Seem like buying one that needs restoration as an investment is really a non starter unless you can steal it dirt cheap.  You easily can get over your head, unless you have the skill to do all the work limiting labor cost.   

[held1823]

keep in mind that a project car may be the only way into daytona ownership for someone without the funds to purchase a finished example.

some choose to (over?) spend out of love for these cars, rather than as an investment. wise? perhaps not. understandable? absolutely

[odcics2]

keep in mind that a project car may be the only way into daytona ownership for someone without the funds to purchase a finished example.

some choose to (over?) spend out of love for these cars, rather than as an investment. wise? perhaps not. understandable? absolutely

A labor of love for some.

Some folks get that and some don't.

[69_500]

The 2 Daytona at BJ give you a good example of what original parts, vs reproduction parts.

$180 on one, other over $300.