572" horsepower guess

[oldschool]

im almost done with the rebuild on my 572.it made 670 rwhp before.i made some changes like went to a 7.100 rod from a 6.760.i went with a 440-3 manifold instead of a 440-2 4150 w/2" spacer up to a 4500.im going to dyno it on a engine dyno and then on a chasis dyno,so i will know the % of drive train loss.i will post when i know.my motor specs:
580"
572-13 365cnc
indy cm-2 cam: 282/290@.50 .705/.663
440-3 manifold
1150 aed dominator
14.1cr
7.100 rods (steel)

any guesses as to the horsepower? torque? % drive line loss in a 70 charger with a 4.10 dana,18 spline trans and steel magnum 500 rims?
__________________

[firefighter3931]

Hey OS, that looks like a strong engine. So, basicly the same build other than the 440-3 intake and a 7.1 rod along with a few extra cubes (572 > 580) correct ? No other changes ?

I'm thinking with those 572-13's it could use more lift to make those heads shine. 

The way it sits it should make 850+ i would think. Your old rwhp numbers converted back to the crank works out to ~790 hp....using 15% for parasitic loss with the std trans.  790 x .85 = 671

assuming 850 at the crank : 850 x .85 = 722 rwhp

Either way that's one bad hombre ! 



Ron

[oldschool]

Hey OS, that looks like a strong engine. So, basicly the same build other than the 440-3 intake and a 7.1 rod along with a few extra cubes (572 > 580) correct ? No other changes ?

I'm thinking with those 572-13's it could use more lift to make those heads shine. 

The way it sits it should make 850+ i would think. Your old rwhp numbers converted back to the crank works out to ~790 hp....using 15% for parasitic loss with the std trans.  790 x .85 = 671

assuming 850 at the crank : 850 x .85 = 722 rwhp

Either way that's one bad hombre ! 



Ron

HEY RON,THATS ALL THAT I CHANGED.I TALKED TO A FEW PEOPLE ABOUT A BIGGER CAM, 284/300 .720/.675  108/116 CL. MOST SAID LEAVE THE OTHER ONE IN,NOT WORTH THE TROUBLE.WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT GRIND? IM NOT REALLY WORRIED ABOUT LOOSING LOW END TO MUCH,I HAVE SOOO MUCH TO SPARE. THE CAM I HAVE NOW WORKS REALLY WELL ON THE STREET.VERY GOOD IDLE (900RPM),STRONG MIDRANGE,AND GOOD TOP END.IT SEEMS TO ME IT WANTS A LITTLE MORE CAM THOU. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE POWER DIFFERNCE BETWEEN THE TWO WOULD BE? ALSO IF I LOST SOME LOW END MAYBE IT WOULD HELP WITH TIRE SPIN SOME? ALSO ITS A 4SP CAR W/4.10,S SO A BIGGER CAM MIGHT WORK OK.
I TALKED WITH DWAYNE PORTER,AND HE SAID TO CHANGE TO 1.7 ROCKERS. HE SAID THE 572-13,S DO NOT FLOW AS WELL AT LOWER LIFTS,AND THE 1.7,S WOULD REALLY WAKE THEM UP.HE ALSO SAID THAT THE 572-13,S WERE REALLY MADE FOR 1.7,S. I HAVE 1.55 ROCKERS NOW.

I THINK THE % DRIVE TRAIN LOSS WILL BE MORE.THATS WHY IM GOING TO DYNO BOTH WAYS.THAT DANA WITH BIG 11"DRUMS,STEEL MAGNUM 500,S AND 18 SPLINE IS EATING UP ALOT OF POWER. I CAN NOT EVEN SPIN THE WHEELS AS HARD AS I CAN,AND MAKE THEM GO AROUND ONE TURN.IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE.WHEN I KNOW I WILL POST.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WILL DO IN THE 1/4? 3800LB 70 CHARGER,4SP,4.10 DANA,275 60 15 MT DRAG RADIALS? SLICKS? THANKS , BRIAN

[oldschool]

on another note,just left the machine shop. they weighed the new piston and rod,it was 153gm,s lighter.the piston is very short.going with 7.100 rods w/2.200 big end seems to have made a big differnce.the piston pin is half way into the oil ring.i hope they can get my big dollar bryant crank to balance.it has alot of mallory in it now

[firefighter3931]

Hi Brian, the rotating assembly weight reduction is gonna make it rev faster, i'm sure you allready knew that. I too am going with the 7.1 rod with 2.2 journals in my 572 shortblock ; Eagle crank & rods with Diamond 30cc dished pistons. Target compression is 10.8 with tight quench for pump gas. The cam is a 272/280 roller specced by Dwayne.

I'm thinking your current cam is fine....the powerband is where you need it to be. More duration just pushes everything upwards. I would listen to Dwayne on the Rocker arms....he knows the big Indy stuff quite well and has built & dynoed lots of those 572-13/600-13 headed combos. 

As for how fast it will run....heck it has plenty of power to run 9's but the trick is launching the beast effectively to get it to ET well. That's no small feat with a stick car and that much power. Should be lots of fun trying though ! 



Ron

[oldschool]

Hi Brian, the rotating assembly weight reduction is gonna make it rev faster, i'm sure you allready knew that. I too am going with the 7.1 rod with 2.2 journals in my 572 shortblock ; Eagle crank & rods with Diamond 30cc dished pistons. Target compression is 10.8 with tight quench for pump gas. The cam is a 272/280 roller specced by Dwayne.

I'm thinking your current cam is fine....the powerband is where you need it to be. More duration just pushes everything upwards. I would listen to Dwayne on the Rocker arms....he knows the big Indy stuff quite well and has built & dynoed lots of those 572-13/600-13 headed combos. 

As for how fast it will run....heck it has plenty of power to run 9's but the trick is launching the beast effectively to get it to ET well. That's no small feat with a stick car and that much power. Should be lots of fun trying though ! 



Ron

what heads and intake are you going to run?when i dynoed mine,i did it with a indy dualplane and 1000 cfm aed 4150. i also used an indy single plane w/4150 flange,and a 2" spacer to a 4500 flange w/a aed 1150 dominator.
the singleplane made 670 rwhp and 600 for the dualplane.the torque was close with both of them,with the dualplane making a good bit more below 3500. you could really tell the sound differnce between the two. the dualplane really sounded like it was choaking it down,you could tell it liked the singleplane.
when i talked to dwayne porter,he said not to use the 4150 with the spacer.he said over 500" it was a restriction,and cost horsepower.
also i seen a picture of your charger awhile back.i do not remember the rear tire size.i use 275/60/15 and want a bigger tire. i thought yours had a bigger tire,can you tell me what it is? i want it to fit without any cutting.maybee a picture again? thanks again,brian

[firefighter3931]

Hi Brian, the rotating assembly weight reduction is gonna make it rev faster, i'm sure you allready knew that. I too am going with the 7.1 rod with 2.2 journals in my 572 shortblock ; Eagle crank & rods with Diamond 30cc dished pistons. Target compression is 10.8 with tight quench for pump gas. The cam is a 272/280 roller specced by Dwayne.

I'm thinking your current cam is fine....the powerband is where you need it to be. More duration just pushes everything upwards. I would listen to Dwayne on the Rocker arms....he knows the big Indy stuff quite well and has built & dynoed lots of those 572-13/600-13 headed combos. 

As for how fast it will run....heck it has plenty of power to run 9's but the trick is launching the beast effectively to get it to ET well. That's no small feat with a stick car and that much power. Should be lots of fun trying though ! 



Ron

what heads and intake are you going to run?when i dynoed mine,i did it with a indy dualplane and 1000 cfm aed 4150. i also used an indy single plane w/4150 flange,and a 2" spacer to a 4500 flange w/a aed 1150 dominator.
the singleplane made 670 rwhp and 600 for the dualplane.the torque was close with both of them,with the dualplane making a good bit more below 3500. you could really tell the sound differnce between the two. the dualplane really sounded like it was choaking it down,you could tell it liked the singleplane.
when i talked to dwayne porter,he said not to use the 4150 with the spacer.he said over 500" it was a restriction,and cost horsepower.
also i seen a picture of your charger awhile back.i do not remember the rear tire size.i use 275/60/15 and want a bigger tire. i thought yours had a bigger tire,can you tell me what it is? i want it to fit without any cutting.maybee a picture again? thanks again,brian

I can believe the 440 2d is very restrictive on a 572. The 440-3 is the natural choice....the 3X looks like it would hurt low end throttle response. I know Dwayne has dynoed the 3X on a few race builds so i would trust his judgement when he suggests the 440-3 for yours. I can see the 440-2 with the adapter being somewhat restrictive as well...

Mine is going to be tamer than yours....pump gas and a .650 lift roller with endurance style lobes. The Heads are going the be an R&D project....something you wouldn't expect on a big cube combo. Basicly a MW 295cc EZ tweaked with a 2.25 intake valve and some PRH majic with the die grinder and flowbench. The low and mid lift numbers are much stronger on the smaller heads as opposed to the 572-13's so with the cam we chose these heads are a good choice. It will also allow me to keep my TTI headers and Harland Sharp rocker arms. This head combination will be very strong up to .700 valve lift so it works for me. I purchased an MP "337" single plane and we will be trying that one when it goes on the dyno along with a 440-3 and different carb combinations.

The drag radials on my car are 295/65/15's....they just fit ! 


Ron

[oldschool]

hey ron,any chance of a picture of your car from the side,sitting on the ground? what is your backspacing on your rear rims?do they rub any at all?how about the size of the fronts?
my motor is almost done.i went with dwayne's advice and got some 1.7 rockers.that bumps my lift up to about .800".hopefully it will pick up some more power .also hope that it's not to hard on the lifters and other components.thanks for all the help.cant wait to post the dyno results for everbody. thanks again,brian

[firefighter3931]

Brian, cool deal on the 1.7's....that should work great with your heads along with the 440-3  Are you going to dyno it at the same place as before ?

My car is still in the air for the time being but the suspension is loaded....jackstands under the rear axle. The SS springs are sitting pretty high right now but i'm sure they will settle once the cars hits the street. The rear wheels are 15x8 prostars with 4.5in backspacing. I did have to add a billet wheel spacer because the tire was too close to the leafs. A 4in backspace would be perfect and that's what i have now, with the spacer added.   

The fronts are 15x7 with 225/70/15's


Ron


Ps. I'll post a few pics for you ;

(1) side of the car with the 295/65's
(2) MP "337" manifold
(3) MP 337 with INdy EZ's on an RB block....notice how low it sits. Can you say...stock hood   

[oldschool]

thanks for the info ron,you are a fountain of information! i will use the same chassis dyno,but this is first time engine dyno.will be interesting to see actual driveline loss.the tire size looks very good.i will order 2 magmum 500,s with a 4" backspace.i'll put mt drag radials on them,and rotate them between both chargers. can you get that m-1 manifold for a dominator? do you know how tall the carb flange is above the block rails?also it looks like in the picture that their is a valley plate under the manifold,bolted to the block.is that how theese work?thanks again!

[firefighter3931]

thanks for the info ron,you are a fountain of information! i will use the same chassis dyno,but this is first time engine dyno.will be interesting to see actual driveline loss.the tire size looks very good.i will order 2 magmum 500,s with a 4" backspace.i'll put mt drag radials on them,and rotate them between both chargers. can you get that m-1 manifold for a dominator? do you know how tall the carb flange is above the block rails?also it looks like in the picture that their is a valley plate under the manifold,bolted to the block.is that how theese work?thanks again!

You're welcome Brian. Looking forward to your engine & chassis dyno results. I bet you lose less than 20% between the crank and rear wheels with the std trans. It's going to be a beast ! 


The 337 is a MW runner with a 4150 pad on top. The plenum is huge and it looks like MP just closed up the top for the smaller carb....but it can be easily opened up for a 4500 carb. I know this manifold has made 800 hp with a 1050 dommy and 4150-4500 adapter so it moves plenty of air. The carb pad is ~ 1.25in lower than a super victor or 440-2/440-3 ICH single plane. The valley plate is cast in...this is a stock MW head replacement manifold....and the factory MW engines never used a bathtub style intake gasket so that's why the valley is cast into it.

With a raised port head you are correct...there will be a valley plate beneath the cast-in plate. If i end up using this manifold i might just remove the cast plate if the appearance bothers me. Dwayne has the manifold at his shop and plans are to dyno it with a 4150 and 4500 carbs to see how it performs. We're gonna use a 440-3 with a dominator and do some comparison R&D work to see how they stack up aginst each other. If the 337 works well i will probably just use it and open the pad up for a 4500 AED pro-street carb and call it good.

I've allready dropped the k-frame 1in with spacers so i know i can fit this under the stock hood with a drop base air cleaner assembly. 



Ron

[oldschool]

that will be interresting to see.i bet it will not be a huge difference.on my 572 it was 73 rwhp between the dualplane and 440-2 singleplane.a dualplane really choke's it down.i would like to try that m-1 on one of my 500" motors.it think it would pick up a good bit of horsepower.wheres the best place to get one?
will you post the dyno results when you are done,i would really like to see them! one last thing,the lowering spacers on your crossmember,is that a kit or did you make them?what about the bolts to keep it centered,and hold it from moving?are they special? i should have my motor next week,im ready. i will post some pictures along the way also.thank you again,brian 

[firefighter3931]

that will be interresting to see.i bet it will not be a huge difference.on my 572 it was 73 rwhp between the dualplane and 440-2 singleplane.a dualplane really choke's it down.i would like to try that m-1 on one of my 500" motors.it think it would pick up a good bit of horsepower.wheres the best place to get one?
will you post the dyno results when you are done,i would really like to see them! one last thing,the lowering spacers on your crossmember,is that a kit or did you make them?what about the bolts to keep it centered,and hold it from moving?are they special? i should have my motor next week,im ready. i will post some pictures along the way also.thank you again,brian 

Brian, the 337 manifold came from Mancini. It's a rare, not often used piece and they had never even seen one.  It doesn't show up in their on-line catalog either and they found one for me in some wherehouse out in the mid west. The full part number is : P4876337 in case you're trying to locate one. They could be on back order or maybe discontinued....you'll have to call and find out. 

I made the spacers with 1x2 flat stock and cut them into 2in squares. I just used 4 grade 8 bolts that were 1in longer than the stockers. This is an old trick that's been done hundreds of times before with success....no worries.    The shouldered bolts are a non issue....that K-frame ain't going anywhere once you torque it down. One side benefit is that the lowered k-frame improves bump steer. 

I will post a comprehensive build list and engine specs once the engine is dynoed, complete with all the relevant data. We're hoping it makes ~800hp on Dwayne's Superflow which has been known to be a stingy ba$tard and brought many an engine to it's knees. 

Dwayne built a 528 for one of his customers and it made 750 hp on his SF Dyno....that engine is in a 3850 lb 68 Charger R/T running 9.70's at 140 mph.  I'm looking to run 10.0 and have no plans to cage the car...it allready has an 8pt bar and that's all that i'm prepared to install. If it goes faster than that i'll just put a throttle stop on it or pull some timing out to slow it down. It is afterall, just a street car 



Ron

[FLG]

Ron,

Mopar Performance catalog lists the P4876337 intake...maybe its available again?? 

[firefighter3931]

Ron,

Mopar Performance catalog lists the P4876337 intake...maybe its available again?? 

Yep, they are listed in the current MP catalog but just try and find one. 

I'm pretty sure the last batch was manufactured several years ago....hopefully production will resume if there is enough interest. 



Ron

[oldschool]

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH I JUST ORDERED TWO OF THEM FROM MANCINI RACING.TALKED TO MOPAR TECH GUY TODAY.HE SAID THEY JUST STARTED MAKING THEM AGAIN.HE ALSO SAID THEY HAVE A FEW IN STOCK NOW,BUT NEED MORE ORDERS TO MAKE MORE.HE SAID THEY CAN'T MAKE A BUNCH,AND JUST LET THEM SIT.(NOT MUCH DEMAND).I HOPE I CAN GET A COUPLE
I WANT TO TRY THEM AGAINST MY INDY DUALPLANE ON MY 500" MOTORS.I BET THEIR IS SOME GOOD POWER TO BE PICKED UP.THE TECH GUY ALSO SAID THE CARB FLANGE IS 5 1/2" ABOVE THE BLOCK RAILS.WITH A DROP AIR CLEANER,SHOULD BE NO PROBLEM CLOSING A STOCK HOOD.THAT WOULD GE AWESOME!

[firefighter3931]

That's great news....when mine was ordered Mancini said that it was one of very few available....possibly the last one. 

Brian, i'm thinking your 500in strokers are gonna luv that manifold....especially over 6000 rpm. 


Ron

[kamkuda]

That's great news....when mine was ordered Mancini said that it was one of very few available....possibly the last one. 

Brian, i'm thinking your 500in strokers are gonna luv that manifold....especially over 6000 rpm. 


Ron

Hmmm I couldn't find one.  But I have not ordered the victor yet.  If Mancini has any I will take one for my pig