Hiring a car builder (BK, Patrick, Smith brothers, HPLAG, Danny)

[mopar2]

 

[Ghoste]

Well, I think I understand what you are saying but I have to say that for 47,000 dollars of my hard earned money, I know what I expect.  I understand what a full rotiserrie job entails and the costs involved with those kind of restos.  I also know that I see more and more of these 50k body jobs being sold as top notch by the body shop and then when the customer is unhappy, the same shops seem to feel that you got what you paid for.  It seems to me like the bar for "you got what you paid for" is being raised considerably??

[Troy]

For the record (and before anyone says something they regret), I was asked by Mr Lee to remove the thread about his car. I have asked him to provide his own account in the hopes that it will start off as (and remain) an informative discussion.

Troy

[69charger2002]

the bottom line is this. no matter who the builder... let's just be real for a minute. everyone is in a business to make money. whether it's working at walmart or building cars. car builders have to make 10-20k on a project that takes 8 months to build to make it worthwhile, and that's somewhat understandable.  now that being said... $10k in my opinion buys a really nice complete charger body. R/T? no but that is not what most "builders" turn in GL's. so in essence these guys paying $43k, $47k, $70k etc.. while i concede they should not be getting mopar national sshow winners, they should be built very nice cars that they can be assured are built correctly and proud of.. needing no work or redoing of the body. i don't care how you spin it. $45k even with a builder making $15k on the back end is easily achievable.
trav

[dodgecharger-fan]

I think it's possible for a builder can do things right or do things wrong and still make $15K on the back end. (If that's the number. I'm not going to argue that. My point is they can make the same, or damn near close, amount of money going either route.)

It was said many times in the BK thread that it would have been less work to do it right than to cobble it together as was shown.
That's a good example right there.

If a builder decides to put more of their time in to hiding a problem than what it would take to fix it right, then it could be said that they don't truly value their own time.

It makes me wonder if they do actually make as much when they take shortcuts as they'd do if they do things right.
It sure doesn't help business when the bad things get discovered, though.

[Back N Black]

I think the condition of the car you start out with plays a big factor. If you have a rust bucket thats needs floor pans ,trunk floor, rear quarters, tail panel etc.. it going to cost that kind of money or even more to do it right. Find the best possible car before you commit. 

[Ghoste]

If it costs that much or more to do it right does it not fall to the bodyshop to inform you of that?  Does starting with a poorer car mean it's okay for the shop to cover it quickly and not tell you it's going to bubble out in a few months?

[dodgecharger-fan]

Especially if they are supplying the car.....

[jb666]

I think it's possible for a builder can do things right or do things wrong and still make $15K on the back end. (If that's the number. I'm not going to argue that. My point is they can make the same, or damn near close, amount of money going either route.)

It was said many times in the BK thread that it would have been less work to do it right than to cobble it together as was shown.
That's a good example right there.

If a builder decides to put more of their time in to hiding a problem than what it would take to fix it right, then it could be said that they don't truly value their own time.

It makes me wonder if they do actually make as much when they take shortcuts as they'd do if they do things right.
It sure doesn't help business when the bad things get discovered, though.

I think the condition of the car you start out with plays a big factor. If you have a rust bucket thats needs floor pans ,trunk floor, rear quarters, tail panel etc.. it going to cost that kind of money or even more to do it right. Find the best possible car before you commit. 

If it costs that much or more to do it right does it not fall to the bodyshop to inform you of that?  Does starting with a poorer car mean it's okay for the shop to cover it quickly and not tell you it's going to bubble out in a few months?

Especially if they are supplying the car.....

This is a great thread, and I have to agree with the (above) posts, you have made some great points. I've learned a LOT because of this deal, this car, this forum and this industry. People are out there to earn a living. Some are out there to screw people out of their hard earned money and give the hobby a bad name, but I REALLY BELIEVE there are still a lot of good people left in this industry. I can't let my raw deal sway my opinion of every car maker.

With that said, do I think "DR Patrick" is a hack? NO. Do I think he did a hack job on Mr Lee's car and then took the easy way out? Yes. Much like BK, it would have been easier to stand by your build and make the wrong RIGHT.

Mopar2, great thread -- Thanks for the look at this situation from your side 

[richard pettys 73]

I was thinking of hiring a car builder myself because i dont know alot about sheet metal work and what not, but after reading some o the horrendous stories here it makes me almost want to try to do it myself. Even if it is supposed to be a reputible builder and so on , there is always that chance that any of us could get taken advantage of if they feel their work is top notch and we feel its just not up to par or even safe!!!

[Mike DC]

 
The condition of the raw material car can't be overstated.  It really can't.


The paint/bodywork involved could vary between $5K and $20K+ depending on the extent of the re-work that is necessary.  And modern restorations are as much about buying whole the car new in individual boxes as they are about actually FIXING old parts. 

[dodgecharger-fan]

Good builders ARE out there.

I found a bad one and went through a bit of a nightmare - maybe not quite as bad as jb666 because I never let it get in to paint let alone reassembled.

Now, I have a very good guy working on my car. He found all kinds of stuff that the first guy did and hid. I honestly believe this new guy could see the problems at a glance - like he had x-ray vision. He got on them the first day.
He got a long way and we waited for some parts but I had to stall things for a while last year due to finances and job uncertainty but we're starting to get things lined up so he can get back on it very soon.

The only downside: I have to stop just before paint again. At least it will be solid and sealed up, though.
If things change with regards to the economy and I can get things sorted out financially, maybe I'll be able to get it into paint in a year or so.

If that works out, I want to bring it back to the same guy if I can. He's that good.  <-- and that was my point before I started to ramble.  

[Back N Black]

I think the condition of the car you start out with plays a big factor. If you have a rust bucket that's needs floor pans ,trunk floor, rear quarters, tail panel etc.. it going to cost that kind of money or even more to do it right. Find the best possible car before you commit. 

What it comes down to is buyer beware. The guys that seem to get taken are the long distance relationships. If your builder is so  far away that you cannot drop in at least once a week unexpectedly, find some other body shop. If the builder is suppling the car, take a real good look at it and maybe bring a friend along for a second opinion. It seems that body shops like BK had clients that were miles away and could not see what was actually going on. When i was on the hunt for a Charger, it took me 2 years of driving all over Ontario and Quebec to find the right car. People either lied to you on the phone about the condition, wanted too much money or it was a numbers matching rusted out piece of crap. There is absolutely no excuse for bodyshops to be ripping people off, but the guys that are getting ripped also need to do their homework. My opinion and a buck fifty will get you a coffee downtown. 

[RECHRGD]

I think the condition of the car you start out with plays a big factor. If you have a rust bucket that's needs floor pans ,trunk floor, rear quarters, tail panel etc.. it going to cost that kind of money or even more to do it right. Find the best possible car before you commit. 

What it comes down to is buyer beware. The guys that seem to get taken are the long distance relationships. If your builder is so  far away that you cannot drop in at least once a week unexpectedly, find some other body shop. If the builder is suppling the car, take a real good look at it and maybe bring a friend along for a second opinion. It seems that body shops like BK had clients that were miles away and could not see what was actually going on. When i was on the hunt for a Charger, it took me 2 years of driving all over Ontario and Quebec to find the right car. People either lied to you on the phone about the condition, wanted too much money or it was a numbers matching rusted out piece of crap. There is absolutely no excuse for bodyshops to be ripping people off, but the guys that are getting ripped also need to do their homework. My opinion and a buck fifty will get you a coffee downtown. 

I agree!! Additionally---it's quite possible that many of these guys really don't know how to do it right.  How many college degrees, years of trade experience, or certifications are required to open up a business like this?  Probably none.  Go buy a business license and go for it!  Anybody that can do a half-assed clean-up job on a car and call it restored can jump into the market and try to get Barrett Jackson money for their "best" restoration job.   Bob

[chargerkid01]

I got the shell of my car put blasted, metal replaced, and primed for around 11,000!! I was done right to!! These companies that are doing half ass work are screwed up!!

[Fizzy]

Did a Model A high boy for a guy in the early 90's. He came in once a week, inspected the work, and paid cash, then would direct what work he wanted for the next week. He got metal finished panels and razor sharp gaps. Never whined about what it cost AND I never oversharged. Did another model A, restoration this time. He had little knowledge, but knew he had a car that was a turd. Came in every 2 weeks and inspected, asked exactly what and how it was done, and paid cash. He also never whined, got really good work and I never overcharged him. We even rubbed out the laquer paint with baking soda, cause thats how Henry did it. Next guy brings in a chevy coupe that had already been worked on. He wanted a rock solid estimate for the work, added additional work and did'nt expect to pay for it, tried to put me on a deadline. and whined every time he wrote a check. All three cars were show winners, but guess which one got less attention to the work

[chargerkid01]

Fizzy where are you from?? I'd love to have you work on the charger!! Can't afford it right now though.

[Fizzy]

Minnesota, shop was in Fargo, but guys like the Chevy coupe guy wrecked my interest in doing customer cars, other than an occational bike for my buddies. Got a 33 chev coupe, a 53 stude, a 41 ford pickup(almost done) and a recently aquired 70 R/T charger to do of my own. This should take me until I assume room temp, probobly leave something left for my Kid to do.

[jb666]

Minnesota, shop was in Fargo, but guys like the Chevy coupe guy wrecked my interest in doing customer cars, other than an occational bike for my buddies. Got a 33 chev coupe, a 53 stude, a 41 ford pickup(almost done) and a recently aquired 70 R/T charger to do of my own. This should take me until I assume room temp, probobly leave something left for my Kid to do.

That's cool.. Any pictures you could show us of your stable?

[chargerkid01]

hey no problem that is a little to far to ship a car for me anyway!! and yes lets see some pics

[Arkgl01]

I have used patrick on my General lee and my dads 68 RT. He did a great job on both and didnt skimp any where. He emailed me with what he recommended and I did them. The only small complaint was the car was not detailed and I did that when I got it back to make it 100% Other wise I thought he did a great job. Just my 

Mark

[Fizzy]

Been out of state 3 months an a construction project. Be back in about a week and then will get some pics out, if the mrs. helps me. She doesn't allow me access to the desk computer.

[68charger383]

Lets stop candy coating things. If your in the business and making a profit/living on doing this work, then your accountable for everything done up to a level of professionalism one would expect from a body shop let alone a mopar restoration shop.

I agree 100% garbage in garbage out as far as starting off using a rusty hull as the base. If you start with a decent and more expensive canvas, you'll have an easier and cheaper rebuild.

Lets face it, thanks to PG/BE&A, Year One, Legendary, AMD, USA Chargers, Classic Body Designs, Goodmark etc, you can pretty much rebuild most of the cars body, interior and frame with new parts. The price for a rebuild should basically be the price of these parts plus labor. In addition, anything less than restored or new parts should be deemed as an attempt to short change the client on the restoration.

So there is no excuse for these shops to be shortchanging the customers. As far as these being people who didn't know, they shouldn't have to know anything since they are writing a check and paying for the mopar restoration shops expertise on the rebuild. They are paying these shops to build them a new charger, so they don't have to risk buying one off ebay and getting screwed.

[jb666]

Lets stop candy coating things. If your in the business and making a profit/living on doing this work, then your accountable for everything done up to a level of professionalism one would expect from a body shop let alone a mopar restoration shop.

I agree 100% garbage in garbage out as far as starting off using a rusty hull as the base. If you start with a decent and more expensive canvas, you'll have an eaiser and cheaper rebuild.

Lets face it, thanks to BE&A, Year One, Legendary, USA Chargers, Classic Body Designs, Goodmark etc, you can pretty much rebuild most of the cars body, interior and frame with new parts. The price for a rebuild should basically be the price of these parts plus labor. In addition, anything less than restored or new parts should be deemed as an attempt to short change the client on the restoration.

Well put 

[69charger2002]

exactly what i was trying to say, but you worded it much better.   
trav