Hiring a car builder (BK, Patrick, Smith brothers, HPLAG, Danny)

[mopar2]

 

[Ghoste]

Well, I think I understand what you are saying but I have to say that for 47,000 dollars of my hard earned money, I know what I expect.  I understand what a full rotiserrie job entails and the costs involved with those kind of restos.  I also know that I see more and more of these 50k body jobs being sold as top notch by the body shop and then when the customer is unhappy, the same shops seem to feel that you got what you paid for.  It seems to me like the bar for "you got what you paid for" is being raised considerably??

[Troy]

For the record (and before anyone says something they regret), I was asked by Mr Lee to remove the thread about his car. I have asked him to provide his own account in the hopes that it will start off as (and remain) an informative discussion.

Troy

[69charger2002]

the bottom line is this. no matter who the builder... let's just be real for a minute. everyone is in a business to make money. whether it's working at walmart or building cars. car builders have to make 10-20k on a project that takes 8 months to build to make it worthwhile, and that's somewhat understandable.  now that being said... $10k in my opinion buys a really nice complete charger body. R/T? no but that is not what most "builders" turn in GL's. so in essence these guys paying $43k, $47k, $70k etc.. while i concede they should not be getting mopar national sshow winners, they should be built very nice cars that they can be assured are built correctly and proud of.. needing no work or redoing of the body. i don't care how you spin it. $45k even with a builder making $15k on the back end is easily achievable.
trav

[dodgecharger-fan]

I think it's possible for a builder can do things right or do things wrong and still make $15K on the back end. (If that's the number. I'm not going to argue that. My point is they can make the same, or damn near close, amount of money going either route.)

It was said many times in the BK thread that it would have been less work to do it right than to cobble it together as was shown.
That's a good example right there.

If a builder decides to put more of their time in to hiding a problem than what it would take to fix it right, then it could be said that they don't truly value their own time.

It makes me wonder if they do actually make as much when they take shortcuts as they'd do if they do things right.
It sure doesn't help business when the bad things get discovered, though.

[Back N Black]

I think the condition of the car you start out with plays a big factor. If you have a rust bucket thats needs floor pans ,trunk floor, rear quarters, tail panel etc.. it going to cost that kind of money or even more to do it right. Find the best possible car before you commit. 

[Ghoste]

If it costs that much or more to do it right does it not fall to the bodyshop to inform you of that?  Does starting with a poorer car mean it's okay for the shop to cover it quickly and not tell you it's going to bubble out in a few months?

[dodgecharger-fan]

Especially if they are supplying the car.....

[jb666]

I think it's possible for a builder can do things right or do things wrong and still make $15K on the back end. (If that's the number. I'm not going to argue that. My point is they can make the same, or damn near close, amount of money going either route.)

It was said many times in the BK thread that it would have been less work to do it right than to cobble it together as was shown.
That's a good example right there.

If a builder decides to put more of their time in to hiding a problem than what it would take to fix it right, then it could be said that they don't truly value their own time.

It makes me wonder if they do actually make as much when they take shortcuts as they'd do if they do things right.
It sure doesn't help business when the bad things get discovered, though.

I think the condition of the car you start out with plays a big factor. If you have a rust bucket thats needs floor pans ,trunk floor, rear quarters, tail panel etc.. it going to cost that kind of money or even more to do it right. Find the best possible car before you commit. 

If it costs that much or more to do it right does it not fall to the bodyshop to inform you of that?  Does starting with a poorer car mean it's okay for the shop to cover it quickly and not tell you it's going to bubble out in a few months?

Especially if they are supplying the car.....

This is a great thread, and I have to agree with the (above) posts, you have made some great points. I've learned a LOT because of this deal, this car, this forum and this industry. People are out there to earn a living. Some are out there to screw people out of their hard earned money and give the hobby a bad name, but I REALLY BELIEVE there are still a lot of good people left in this industry. I can't let my raw deal sway my opinion of every car maker.

With that said, do I think "DR Patrick" is a hack? NO. Do I think he did a hack job on Mr Lee's car and then took the easy way out? Yes. Much like BK, it would have been easier to stand by your build and make the wrong RIGHT.

Mopar2, great thread -- Thanks for the look at this situation from your side 

[richard pettys 73]

I was thinking of hiring a car builder myself because i dont know alot about sheet metal work and what not, but after reading some o the horrendous stories here it makes me almost want to try to do it myself. Even if it is supposed to be a reputible builder and so on , there is always that chance that any of us could get taken advantage of if they feel their work is top notch and we feel its just not up to par or even safe!!!

[Mike DC]

 
The condition of the raw material car can't be overstated.  It really can't.


The paint/bodywork involved could vary between $5K and $20K+ depending on the extent of the re-work that is necessary.  And modern restorations are as much about buying whole the car new in individual boxes as they are about actually FIXING old parts. 

[dodgecharger-fan]

Good builders ARE out there.

I found a bad one and went through a bit of a nightmare - maybe not quite as bad as jb666 because I never let it get in to paint let alone reassembled.

Now, I have a very good guy working on my car. He found all kinds of stuff that the first guy did and hid. I honestly believe this new guy could see the problems at a glance - like he had x-ray vision. He got on them the first day.
He got a long way and we waited for some parts but I had to stall things for a while last year due to finances and job uncertainty but we're starting to get things lined up so he can get back on it very soon.

The only downside: I have to stop just before paint again. At least it will be solid and sealed up, though.
If things change with regards to the economy and I can get things sorted out financially, maybe I'll be able to get it into paint in a year or so.

If that works out, I want to bring it back to the same guy if I can. He's that good.  <-- and that was my point before I started to ramble.  

[Back N Black]

I think the condition of the car you start out with plays a big factor. If you have a rust bucket that's needs floor pans ,trunk floor, rear quarters, tail panel etc.. it going to cost that kind of money or even more to do it right. Find the best possible car before you commit. 

What it comes down to is buyer beware. The guys that seem to get taken are the long distance relationships. If your builder is so  far away that you cannot drop in at least once a week unexpectedly, find some other body shop. If the builder is suppling the car, take a real good look at it and maybe bring a friend along for a second opinion. It seems that body shops like BK had clients that were miles away and could not see what was actually going on. When i was on the hunt for a Charger, it took me 2 years of driving all over Ontario and Quebec to find the right car. People either lied to you on the phone about the condition, wanted too much money or it was a numbers matching rusted out piece of crap. There is absolutely no excuse for bodyshops to be ripping people off, but the guys that are getting ripped also need to do their homework. My opinion and a buck fifty will get you a coffee downtown. 

[RECHRGD]

I think the condition of the car you start out with plays a big factor. If you have a rust bucket that's needs floor pans ,trunk floor, rear quarters, tail panel etc.. it going to cost that kind of money or even more to do it right. Find the best possible car before you commit. 

What it comes down to is buyer beware. The guys that seem to get taken are the long distance relationships. If your builder is so  far away that you cannot drop in at least once a week unexpectedly, find some other body shop. If the builder is suppling the car, take a real good look at it and maybe bring a friend along for a second opinion. It seems that body shops like BK had clients that were miles away and could not see what was actually going on. When i was on the hunt for a Charger, it took me 2 years of driving all over Ontario and Quebec to find the right car. People either lied to you on the phone about the condition, wanted too much money or it was a numbers matching rusted out piece of crap. There is absolutely no excuse for bodyshops to be ripping people off, but the guys that are getting ripped also need to do their homework. My opinion and a buck fifty will get you a coffee downtown. 

I agree!! Additionally---it's quite possible that many of these guys really don't know how to do it right.  How many college degrees, years of trade experience, or certifications are required to open up a business like this?  Probably none.  Go buy a business license and go for it!  Anybody that can do a half-assed clean-up job on a car and call it restored can jump into the market and try to get Barrett Jackson money for their "best" restoration job.   Bob

[chargerkid01]

I got the shell of my car put blasted, metal replaced, and primed for around 11,000!! I was done right to!! These companies that are doing half ass work are screwed up!!

[Fizzy]

Did a Model A high boy for a guy in the early 90's. He came in once a week, inspected the work, and paid cash, then would direct what work he wanted for the next week. He got metal finished panels and razor sharp gaps. Never whined about what it cost AND I never oversharged. Did another model A, restoration this time. He had little knowledge, but knew he had a car that was a turd. Came in every 2 weeks and inspected, asked exactly what and how it was done, and paid cash. He also never whined, got really good work and I never overcharged him. We even rubbed out the laquer paint with baking soda, cause thats how Henry did it. Next guy brings in a chevy coupe that had already been worked on. He wanted a rock solid estimate for the work, added additional work and did'nt expect to pay for it, tried to put me on a deadline. and whined every time he wrote a check. All three cars were show winners, but guess which one got less attention to the work

[chargerkid01]

Fizzy where are you from?? I'd love to have you work on the charger!! Can't afford it right now though.

[Fizzy]

Minnesota, shop was in Fargo, but guys like the Chevy coupe guy wrecked my interest in doing customer cars, other than an occational bike for my buddies. Got a 33 chev coupe, a 53 stude, a 41 ford pickup(almost done) and a recently aquired 70 R/T charger to do of my own. This should take me until I assume room temp, probobly leave something left for my Kid to do.

[jb666]

Minnesota, shop was in Fargo, but guys like the Chevy coupe guy wrecked my interest in doing customer cars, other than an occational bike for my buddies. Got a 33 chev coupe, a 53 stude, a 41 ford pickup(almost done) and a recently aquired 70 R/T charger to do of my own. This should take me until I assume room temp, probobly leave something left for my Kid to do.

That's cool.. Any pictures you could show us of your stable?

[chargerkid01]

hey no problem that is a little to far to ship a car for me anyway!! and yes lets see some pics

[Arkgl01]

I have used patrick on my General lee and my dads 68 RT. He did a great job on both and didnt skimp any where. He emailed me with what he recommended and I did them. The only small complaint was the car was not detailed and I did that when I got it back to make it 100% Other wise I thought he did a great job. Just my 

Mark

[Fizzy]

Been out of state 3 months an a construction project. Be back in about a week and then will get some pics out, if the mrs. helps me. She doesn't allow me access to the desk computer.

[68charger383]

Lets stop candy coating things. If your in the business and making a profit/living on doing this work, then your accountable for everything done up to a level of professionalism one would expect from a body shop let alone a mopar restoration shop.

I agree 100% garbage in garbage out as far as starting off using a rusty hull as the base. If you start with a decent and more expensive canvas, you'll have an easier and cheaper rebuild.

Lets face it, thanks to PG/BE&A, Year One, Legendary, AMD, USA Chargers, Classic Body Designs, Goodmark etc, you can pretty much rebuild most of the cars body, interior and frame with new parts. The price for a rebuild should basically be the price of these parts plus labor. In addition, anything less than restored or new parts should be deemed as an attempt to short change the client on the restoration.

So there is no excuse for these shops to be shortchanging the customers. As far as these being people who didn't know, they shouldn't have to know anything since they are writing a check and paying for the mopar restoration shops expertise on the rebuild. They are paying these shops to build them a new charger, so they don't have to risk buying one off ebay and getting screwed.

[jb666]

Lets stop candy coating things. If your in the business and making a profit/living on doing this work, then your accountable for everything done up to a level of professionalism one would expect from a body shop let alone a mopar restoration shop.

I agree 100% garbage in garbage out as far as starting off using a rusty hull as the base. If you start with a decent and more expensive canvas, you'll have an eaiser and cheaper rebuild.

Lets face it, thanks to BE&A, Year One, Legendary, USA Chargers, Classic Body Designs, Goodmark etc, you can pretty much rebuild most of the cars body, interior and frame with new parts. The price for a rebuild should basically be the price of these parts plus labor. In addition, anything less than restored or new parts should be deemed as an attempt to short change the client on the restoration.

Well put 

[69charger2002]

exactly what i was trying to say, but you worded it much better.   
trav

[chargerkid01]

hey trav why don't you sell another nice charger down in chargerland and quite hording them all 

[69charger2002]

im down to 8 how many more you want me to sell??? lol
trav

[TeeWJay426]

I must say that the common denominator with guys getting screwed by these shady builders is a long distance relationship and insufficient monitoring in person of the work in progress. How else could HLPAG or BK still be in business? Too many folks are willing to shell out too much money without really checking on what their getting for it. Hoe many cars would HLPAG actually sell if a potential buyer showed up to see what they were really getting BEFORE they wrote the check? Far less than what they have managed to dump so far, I guarantee that. I personally couldn't justify shelling out 40+K for anything without being 100% sure of what I was getting for it. Anybody that is willing to do otherwise is asking to be taken, IMO.

[chargerkid01]

Do you still have one of the white ones in your picture that are up front? I'll take one!! lol I don't know what it is about a white charger I love them though. Or maybe even the General. 

[69charger2002]

yep kept both the white ones, one of the white ones is now blue it is a 440 4 speed dana 60 car. the general is in england now.
thanks for the compliments. sorry for the hijacked thread!
trav

[chargerkid01]

yes I agree sorry for the hijack I'll have to start a thread now so I can knock trav out for painting that charger blue!! just a joke trav maybe!! As for car builders Frank Rogers of Richmond, Ohio treated me well and I will give his number to anyone who is interested!!

[451-74Charger]

I have a guy in England that worked on my last car with me.
He is Very old school and does everything by hand, including bending forming etc.
However he is slooooooow
Took 2 years just to refit 2 arch extensions and 2 fenders on a Chevette HSR
All work was done in a cow shed (Cows were in the field while we worked on the car), but I will say his skills are fantastic.
Pity i moved 3000 miles from him.

[d/ur/t]

Do you still have one of the white ones in your picture that are up front? I'll take one!! lol I don't know what it is about a white charger I love them though. Or maybe even the General. 

Got to love white chargers hey.

I have to say deep down most restorers know what they are doing.You don't accidently do a crap job either you run out of mo jo or you run out of back bone.Then for some reason once they decide they are running of either they seem to double dip buy adding hours not spent on the car.

At the end of the day you want what you paid for. 

cheers

[chargerkid01]

ok I'll restate my statement I like 2nd generation white chargers!! 68 69 70, although that is a sharp charger and I will admit I've never seen one like that give some info!!

[68charger383]

Here's one up for sale that looks pretty nice.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,55264.0.html

[chargerkid01]

yaeh I know it is a little out of my price range right now I'd love to have another charger!!

[paul jacobs]

If your considering hiring a car builder, for all or part of your build, the best line of defense is to research the shop.  Ask for references and inspect the shop if you can.   Inspect their work with a fine tooth comb! If the shop your considering isn't clean & organized then move on. Personally my shop is spotless-mopped floors and all.  Heated in winter, air conditioned in the summer.  Every bolt/nut and clip has it's place.  I have areas of work-rearend tables, frontend tables etc. with all rebuild parts right there-along with any specialized tools needed for that job.  A paint booth is here just for components.  Racks with customer parts labeled and boxed.  Everything has it's place.
Our body & paint shop, run by my business partner Troy Angelly, is the same way-it's totally seperate from the assembly & resto shop.  All metal work is done in one area, filler/primer work in another & paint all by itself.  There are nothing but classic mopars there-no collision work whatsoever!  This body shop gets cleaned up everyday before closing!
I don't agree that you shouldn't choose someone far away as long as their policy is to send lots of pictures and document everything to the ninth degree.  The best shops in the country probably are not going to be close. 
My customers have an open invitation to stop by my shop anytime they wish.  It is not too much to ask for 100% when someone is paying you hard-earned money to restore their car.  I had a customer with a driveline vibration that creeped up after about 100 miles.  I personally drove 1400 miles to pick it up and bring it back to my shop and find the problem, all on my coin.  That doesn't make me special-it should be everyones philosophy-go the extra mile to make the customer happy and do the right thing.  And remember-it's cheaper to do it right than to do it twice, just ask anyone who has had to do it.  Good luck to all.

[d/ur/t]

ok I'll restate my statement I like 2nd generation white chargers!! 68 69 70, although that is a sharp charger and I will admit I've never seen one like that give some info!!

After all we are worlds apart.This charger is an Australian White Knight special.Close to your A' bodies I believe.

They buy your terms are exceptionally rare only 200 {100 white ones 100 red ones }were ever made in 1975 and this is one of 100 and they do get rarer as they come in both 4 speed manual and automatic.

Though I have a dodge charger R/T I love these so much as my brotherinlaw had one new.There was bugger all done to them {4.3 LT or 265 cu 218 BHP} but were quick and had legs top speed 120 + MPH.

Have to say years ago we blew this holden {you say chev} off on this long straight out of town.He pulls up beside us at traffic lights and says man that thing has some legs {I say sure does} he says what is 4.3 LT 360 or something {referring to the badge on the front guard}  I say doubt it 265 mate and start with the big belly laugh telling my brotherinlaw what mister Holden/chev was asking.lol


OHH

They also look good in hemi orange.



cheers kyren

[Tilar]

Lets stop candy coating things. If your in the business and making a profit/living on doing this work, then your accountable for everything done up to a level of professionalism one would expect from a body shop let alone a mopar restoration shop.

Exactly. I used to do a little work on peoples cars or tractors from time to time, but the one thing I would not do is scrimp or hide something. The people that are doing these high dollar crap jobs care nothing about the quality of work they do, and a Sherwin Williams resoration can be done by anyone that can swing a paint gun.

I have no idea how many jobs I turned down over the years because someone wanted to cut a corner here or there, but to me, If my name was going to be associated with the job, It either got done right and at my price or it didn't get done. It's as simple as that.

[d/ur/t]

Do you still have one of the white ones in your picture that are up front? I'll take one!! lol I don't know what it is about a white charger I love them though. Or maybe even the General. 

Got to love white chargers hey.

I have to say deep down most restorers know what they are doing.You don't accidently do a crap job either you run out of mo jo or you run out of back bone.Then for some reason once they decide they are running of either they seem to double dip buy adding hours not spent on the car.

At the end of the day you want what you paid for. 

cheers

Suppose I should have said that this car had some serious American designer work from Bob Hubbach if I remember correctly.

There's a photo getting around of him out front of his house in michigan with an E49 R/T.

Rumour has it after design work he went back to the states returning some 18 months later to find the car he helped designed was now on the race track.

cheers