building 440 for 600+ HP suggestions

[charger2fast4u]

it's time to build an engine for my charger. looking for 600+ HP. i'm thinking a 512 440 source stroker kit would get me there? any idea what heads to get i don't know whether to go with a set of indy heads or 440 source bare aluminum heads and put my own springs and all on it because of all the bad stories ive heard about the pre assembled one's. i'm looking for any suggestions on what parts to go with so let me know what you's think

[mikesbbody]

Where are ya Ron? 

[firefighter3931]

A 493 or 505 rotating assembly will make it easier and more streetable....definately build a stroker. As for the heads ; max ported Edelbrock RPM's or the Indy EZ-1's with the max-wedge intake port are needed. The EZ-1's with the Indy dual plane will fit under the stock hood and take less effort than the Edelbrock heads....that is what i would use. The heads should be prepped by a good machinist for some cleanup work and valvejob.

Proform 950 carb, 2in headers and a 260* @.050 solid or roller cam and all the other associated goodies to finish it off and make it reliable. Pump gas compression ratio (10.5:1) is no problem.



Ron

[charger2fast4u]

so i should go with a eagle 505 stroker kit over a 512 from 440 source? i already have 2'' TTI headers for the stock heads so i will need a head that has the stock locations and bolt pattern. which heads do you prefer to use RPM'S or EZ's? and should i buy them bare or assembled?

[firefighter3931]

so i should go with a eagle 505 stroker kit over a 512 from 440 source? i already have 2'' TTI headers for the stock heads so i will need a head that has the stock locations and bolt pattern. which heads do you prefer to use RPM'S or EZ's? and should i buy them bare or assembled?

Either rotating kit will work fine in that type of build....just make sure to have everything looked over closely and corrected if need be. The 505 kit from 440 source would be my first choice....bore the block as little as possible. The 4.25 crank/4.35 bore is ideal (505 kit) 


Your TTI headers with the EZ-1's are perfect....no fitment issues whatsoever. The EZ heads have a stock exhaust port location. 

For the heads i would use the EZ-1's with the max wedge intake port. Purchase them from a dealer like Porter Racing Heads and have them gone over. The valvejob allways needs some work and sometimes the guides need clearancing. A pro like Dwayne will check and correct any deficiencies.  You could also discuss the cam and have him select a custom ground profile for your application....it only costs a few extra bucks but is well worth it. The cam will be matched to your combo and the flow numbers on your heads. 


Porter Racing Heads ; 802-951-1955


With these parts a 600hp build on pump gas is a cakewalk ! 



Ron

[charger2fast4u]

alright i will have to call porter racing heads and talk about this build. so he could grind me a cam made for my specific build? that makes things alot easier. does porter have heads in stock or order them or would i have to buy the heads somewhere else and send them there to get worked on? also Ron im having trouble finding a usable 440 block around me any suggestions where to get one? i'd like to keep my 440 i got in my car now in so i can drive it around until this build is done.

[firefighter3931]

alright i will have to call porter racing heads and talk about this build. so he could grind me a cam made for my specific build? that makes things alot easier. does porter have heads in stock or order them or would i have to buy the heads somewhere else and send them there to get worked on? also Ron im having trouble finding a usable 440 block around me any suggestions where to get one? i'd like to keep my 440 i got in my car now in so i can drive it around until this build is done.

Yes, Dwayne can select a custom cam profile based on your needs....custom cams only cost a few extra $$ and it makes sense to have your head porter pick your cam. I just had him grind one up for me for the 572 stroker build. 

Talk to Dwayne about the head purchase....they will end up being drop shipped to his shop from Indy. I will be doing the same later this year. 

The Block is something you will have to hunt down, check on Craigslist, e-bay etc....or maybe your local junkyard.

Where are you located ?


Ron

[FLG]

How are the blocks that 440 source sells?

They seem pricey but at least you get a block you know is good and your not taking a chance.

[charger2fast4u]

i'm located in PA. i was wondering the same thing about the blocks if they are worth the money or if i'm better off getting a used block. hey ron would this build get me at 600+ rwhp  or just 600 on the motor? i'd like to see around 600-650 rwhp in the end.

[FLG]

If you dont mind can you post a parts list when you finally get it done?

Im looking to do just the same with my stroker build.

[firefighter3931]

i'm located in PA. i was wondering the same thing about the blocks if they are worth the money or if i'm better off getting a used block. hey ron would this build get me at 600+ rwhp  or just 600 on the motor? i'd like to see around 600-650 rwhp in the end.

You should be able to find a good used core in Pa somewhere i would think. The 440 source blocks are just stock blocks that have been cleaned up. At the power level you are looking at (600-650 crank hp) the stock block is at it's limits. Trust me, that's difficult to hook up on the street !

600-650 rwhp is too much unless it's a dedicated racecar....all it will do is spin and point you towards the ditch at 1/2 throttle. It sounds good on paper but in reality it's not much fun to drive. There comes a point when too much power is just plain dangerous. 

If you're looking for "big power" then an aftermarket block is the way to go with a big cube 540-572 type build. The bigger the engine, the less you need to wind it up. High strung motors that make the big power number are not that much fun on the street....and they are difficult to maintain and tune. 


Here's a good illustration ; Vegas Mike's 440 makes 530hp/540tq and is installed in a full bodied street legal 68. The car is an auto trans with 4.10's and 295/50 BFG's. There were 3 of us in the car all weighing 240+lbs and from a 35 mph roll dropping it down a gear and nailing the throttle it put the car sideways and went into violent wheelspin.

Mikes 440 : http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6000.0.html

Imagine the same car with another 100 hp ....get the picture. 



Ron

[mauve66]

besides the motor you should also be thinking of the trans and rearend, they all work together to run correctly, especially the convertor, the wrong one will have you feeling like your driving a slant six  Valiant

[BLUE68RT4ME]

So Ron, why do you suggest the 505 kit over the 512?  If the 505 is 4.25 X 4.35 then the 512 has got to be nearly square... isn't that where you want to be?   I'm asking in honest sincerity because I'll be doing the same thing in about a year.  I've been looking at the 512 and the 528 kits as well.  I would just like to know what your thoughts are coming from someone who is in the know on this stuff.  My block is a 71, any concerns with using that lighter block on stroked 500-600 hp motors?  Thanks for all the feedback you've given 2fast, it's helping me a lot!

Mark

[john108]

I may be wrong. But, from what I have seen, a 505 is a 512 kit with the bore .030 over.  It is a 512 with the bore .060 over.

[BLUE68RT4ME]

That would make sense, as I remember he also said to bore it as little as necessary, hence keeping it more stable for the street. Makes sense!

[firefighter3931]

So Ron, why do you suggest the 505 kit over the 512?  If the 505 is 4.25 X 4.35 then the 512 has got to be nearly square... isn't that where you want to be?   I'm asking in honest sincerity because I'll be doing the same thing in about a year.  I've been looking at the 512 and the 528 kits as well.  I would just like to know what your thoughts are coming from someone who is in the know on this stuff.  My block is a 71, any concerns with using that lighter block on stroked 500-600 hp motors?  Thanks for all the feedback you've given 2fast, it's helping me a lot!

Mark

Mark, the stock block has it's limits. The idea is to take as little off during an overbore as possible to maintain structural integrity. 

That being said, the obvious choice is the 505 kit when using a virgin block. If you can get away with a .030 overbore that is the best possible scenario, inmo. 



Ron

[charger2fast4u]

besides the motor you should also be thinking of the trans and rearend, they all work together to run correctly, especially the convertor, the wrong one will have you feeling like your driving a slant six  Valiant

i have thought about it and i had something in mind of a tremec 5 spd with a dana 60 anyones thoughts on this? my 68 charger is an auto now and was looking into the keisler tko with overdrive trans but ive read alot of people not being satisfied with there work. anyone have experience with them? i plan to start this build by the middle of april all i need is a good usable 440 block. for the stroker kit what kind of pistons and intake manifold would be recommended? and a hydraulic or solid cam? thanks for all input on this everyone.

[FLG]

How about a 727 with a gear vendors OD unit?

Thats my plan, from what ive seen there great.

[firefighter3931]

besides the motor you should also be thinking of the trans and rearend, they all work together to run correctly, especially the convertor, the wrong one will have you feeling like your driving a slant six  Valiant

i have thought about it and i had something in mind of a tremec 5 spd with a dana 60 anyones thoughts on this? my 68 charger is an auto now and was looking into the keisler tko with overdrive trans but ive read alot of people not being satisfied with there work. anyone have experience with them? i plan to start this build by the middle of april all i need is a good usable 440 block. for the stroker kit what kind of pistons and intake manifold would be recommended? and a hydraulic or solid cam? thanks for all input on this everyone.

A Dana is never a bad choice with any stroker type build and especially with a manual transmission. 

Not sure what the power ratings are on the TKO transmissions but i do believe Keisler offers a beefed up version for stroker builds...check with them. Another option would be an 18 spline 833 with a Gear Vendors overdrive. 

The pistons will largely depend on what cylinder head you decide on. For pump gas it will be a dished piston for sure...the volume of that dish will be determined by the cylinder head chamber size.

The Intake manifold, will again depend on the cylinder head being used...as will the Cam profile.

You probably need to make a decision on how much power you're looking to make and then match the components accordingly. I like solid cams with stroker builds. 



Ron

[charger2fast4u]

i was thinking of a keisler TKO-600 with a .64 overdrive to keep the RPM's down while highway driving.  they say it's made for 600HP 600tq. i looked into  the 833's and i think the TKO would be a better choice for what my car is getting built for (daily driver)  and to the track once every so often. as for the DANA 60 i'm still up in the air on it what's some good places that will build one to your needs. and also i have a ssbc disc brake kit would it bolt up to the DANA without any hassle or need any adapter plates?

[FLG]

Check out Dr.Diff for the Dana 60. He custom buids em for mopars, not sure of his stie anymore search around and im sure it will pop up.

[charger2fast4u]

another question about all this talk about what year 440 blocks to use to build up are best. what years are the best year blocks to use and hold up better to more power? i'm asking because i'm going to a big swap meet this weekend and hope to find a block there so i can get this build on the way.

[firefighter3931]

another question about all this talk about what year 440 blocks to use to build up are best. what years are the best year blocks to use and hold up better to more power? i'm asking because i'm going to a big swap meet this weekend and hope to find a block there so i can get this build on the way.

The 440 blocks are pretty much all the same but one thing that will influence strength is core shift during the casting process. There is a good writeup on the 440 source website : http://www.440source.com/blockinfo.htm


Ron

[BLUE68RT4ME]

So you don't see any problems use '71 and newer blocks either?  That's when they started leaning the castings, right?  As always, thanks for the feedback!   

[firefighter3931]

So you don't see any problems use '71 and newer blocks either?  That's when they started leaning the castings, right?  As always, thanks for the feedback!   

Mark, i have a 73 and 74 block available.....one of those two will be used when it comes time to build the 493 for my 70 R/T 



Ron

[charger2fast4u]

i'm about to place the order for the TKO trans and am wondering if anyone knows if the crankshaft is 6 or 8 bolt that comes in the 505 stroker kit from 440 source? so i know what flywheel to get.

[Long Island RT]

I have the 512 kit from 440 source and I used their 130 toothed flywheel (6 bolt).  They do have an 8 bolt (hemi) crank, but it's got a 4.5" stroke and obviously you won't be able to use their steel flywheel.
I've heard they make 1000+ horsepower on the 6 bolt cranks so I don't imagine it being a strength issue.

[charger2fast4u]

so all the 440's are 6 bolt cranks and all hemi's are 8 bolt? whats the advantages and disadvantages of a steel flywheel over a aluminum one? and a 130 and 143 toothed?

[six-tee-nine]

Ron,

About the overbore size, I have a 440 maying around that already is .030 over. So It's facing at least .040 probably even .060.
Sould I use it or is finding another core to use the better option if I want to go stoke it?

[firefighter3931]

Ron,

About the overbore size, I have a 440 maying around that already is .030 over. So It's facing at least .040 probably even .060.
Sould I use it or is finding another core to use the better option if I want to go stoke it?

You could allways have the block sonic checked....it's a worthwhile procedure on any stroker build and this will tell you if the block is a good candidate for a performance build...or not. 


Ron

[charger2fast4u]

hey Ron i have a question with this build of 600+ hp and the tremec with a .64 overdrive what would be good gearing for the DANA 60 if i'm wanting more of a cruising gearing then racing gearing?

[firefighter3931]

hey Ron i have a question with this build of 600+ hp and the tremec with a .64 overdrive what would be good gearing for the DANA 60 if i'm wanting more of a cruising gearing then racing gearing?

Tire diameter comes into play so the "right" gear depands on many factors ; OD ratio/tire diameter/engine powerband etc...


Ron

[werner]

I HAVE A 69 CHARGER 383 MOSIER 60 REAR AXLE WITH 3:73 GEARS AND A LOCKER AND 14 " TIRES. WORKS AND SHIFTS GOOD. HIGH RPM IS WHERE tko'S HAVE PROBLEMS SHIFTING. SMALL BLOCK PERFORMANCE ENGINES BEING WOUND UP OVER 6500RPMHAVE A HARD TIME IN THE 2 - 3 SHIFT. PUT THE HYD CLUTCH IN MINE AS WELL. iTS SO FAR THE BEST THING I HAVE DONE TO THE CAR. ITS FUN TO DRIVE WITH THE PISTOL GRIP NOW AS OPPOSED TO THE AUTO.
BIGGEST PAIN IN THE ASS FOR INSTALL WAS WORKING UNDER THE DASH PUTTING IN THE CLUTCH PEDALS, RESST OF THE INSTALL WAS BOLT IN EXCEPT FOR THE TRANNY TUNNEL. KEISLER SENT WRONG TUNNEL SHEET METAL TWICE BUT OTHER THAN THAT THEY ARE GREAT TO DEAL WITH.
I BUILT THE POWER TRAIN SRONG AS I HAVE A 440 THAT I WANT TO STROKE BUT JSUT RECENTLY HAVE THE OPERTUNATY TO GET A NEW 6.1 HEMI THAT I MIGHT INSTALL INSTEAD.

[charger2fast4u]

I HAVE A 69 CHARGER 383 MOSIER 60 REAR AXLE WITH 3:73 GEARS AND A LOCKER AND 14 " TIRES. WORKS AND SHIFTS GOOD. HIGH RPM IS WHERE tko'S HAVE PROBLEMS SHIFTING. SMALL BLOCK PERFORMANCE ENGINES BEING WOUND UP OVER 6500RPMHAVE A HARD TIME IN THE 2 - 3 SHIFT. PUT THE HYD CLUTCH IN MINE AS WELL. iTS SO FAR THE BEST THING I HAVE DONE TO THE CAR. ITS FUN TO DRIVE WITH THE PISTOL GRIP NOW AS OPPOSED TO THE AUTO.
BIGGEST PAIN IN THE ASS FOR INSTALL WAS WORKING UNDER THE DASH PUTTING IN THE CLUTCH PEDALS, RESST OF THE INSTALL WAS BOLT IN EXCEPT FOR THE TRANNY TUNNEL. KEISLER SENT WRONG TUNNEL SHEET METAL TWICE BUT OTHER THAN THAT THEY ARE GREAT TO DEAL WITH.
I BUILT THE POWER TRAIN SRONG AS I HAVE A 440 THAT I WANT TO STROKE BUT JSUT RECENTLY HAVE THE OPERTUNATY TO GET A NEW 6.1 HEMI THAT I MIGHT INSTALL INSTEAD.

i just got my tko transmission today pretty salty price but i hope it is worth it. looks great i can't wait to get started on it. lucky for me my dash isnt in the car right now so it should be easy to get the pedals put on. do you know if you could reuse your stock brake pedal or no? so you had a good install with no problems other then them sending the wrong trans tunnel to you?

[Long Island RT]

I used the entire stock pedal assembly.  Just had to drill a new hole in the clutch arm just above the original.  It didn't line up properly to the hydraulic clutch master cylinder.

[charger2fast4u]

I used the entire stock pedal assembly.  Just had to drill a new hole in the clutch arm just above the original.  It didn't line up properly to the hydraulic clutch master cylinder.

did you go from manual to manual? when you did the swap. i am going from an automatic to manual. i had my stock brake pedal powdercoated and would like to use that one with the clutch pedal they give me. also because the stock brake pedal looks more heavy duty then the one they give you in the kit plus it's original.

[Long Island RT]

I went from automatic to manual, however I bought a used set of stock pedals from a 4 speed b-body.  They bolted right in.  I think you'll have a hard time using the brake pedal from an automatic - it's too wide, and you will definitely have to use an aftermarket clutch setup.  I can't imagine that will be easy to set up - and will probably look out of place as well.

I think Brewers sells the stock 4-speed pedal assemblies.