Mitch's 69 Charger restoration -sheet metal

[fy469rtse]

Another thought sorry Mitch , those fenders have a lot of adjustment , look at your inner skirts you can lift the fenders mid stream , I did , the more I look at the photo's the better the options , which fender is the worst , I bet the AMD one , I found there not that great ,  but those fenders are just sitting there in the photos
If it was my car , I think I would be taking her home to sort it , your skill level and patience have shown on this car so far , minor issues , put her back on the stands and drill those spot welds out , inner skirts , don't have the stands under the front frame rails ,chock it at the sills and induce sag the other way,
And then think
US car tool frame connectors , I put a false top in mine just below the floor level to create a proper boxed section, if you put these in after correcting the droop in nose it won't go anywhere, better handling also a benefit, torque boxes also ?

[fy469rtse]

Another Mitch , went back through you whole thread, nothing you did , sag was already there from the amount of structural rust , here's my new plan,
Fenders will adjust bonnet edges , if they won't , the the bonnet can be adjusted to suit , next align doors up to body gaps to quarter panels , fenders on and do the like car builders do cut or build up with weld to front door or fender gap edges and grind to suit , these cars were never built great o start with and this car is now better then the factory did,

[green69rt]

Lots of good stuff to think about.    Like I said, the shop will be giving me their assessment of what needs to be done and the hours to do it along with the new parts needed.   I think I will sit on their info till this coming Monday (at least) and let things percolate thru my head.   I don't want to pull the trigger on anything too quickly.  

They did mention a couple of other things that I'm going to keep as is.   They said one rear spring perch sets 3/8" further forward than the other.   They said they could cut it out and line it up, going to tell them no on that, it's close enough and any variation will just make a diff in the angle that the shackle hangs.    The other thing is the gap under the doors.  My car has fairly large gaps and did even when I bought it, as much as 1/2".   Best I can remember, even my new Charger back-in-the-day, had large gaps and so have others that I have seen.  They said they could cut up the outer rocker to close up the gap.   I'll go with the existing gaps.

As far as anything else they want to do, I'm going to make another trip to the shop to look for myself before I decide anything.

I have good confidence in these guys doing a good job, I just need to hold them back from trying to make me a 100 point car.

As for bringing it home, it's $400 each way so Ill have to see what the costs are......  (edit, transport costs were $300)

[cdr]

if we need to take measurements my car is available to compare.

[green69rt]

if we need to take measurements my car is available to compare.

Thanks Charlie, I thought about asking.  

[fy469rtse]

Mitch,
my car also has the large gaps under doors , that's standard,
yes I think they are trying to give you a 100 point car, 4 wheel alignment can be done by shimming the front spring hanger only,
mine will have to be done after the damage I repaired to one front spring hanger , and my car had a rear impact which will have distorted things, 
will that work shop let you fit up your panels to your satisfaction , the factory painted these cars complete didn't they,

[green69rt]

Mitch,
my car also has the large gaps under doors , that's standard,
yes I think they are trying to give you a 100 point car, 4 wheel alignment can be done by shimming the front spring hanger only,
mine will have to be done after the damage I repaired to one front spring hanger , and my car had a rear impact which will have distorted things, 
will that work shop let you fit up your panels to your satisfaction , the factory painted these cars complete didn't they,

The shop and I will have to come to some agreement on how much to do.  The manager and I have talked at least once about the level so I guess I'll just have to keep repeating myself.   I've seen several beautiful cars in their shop, flawless paint, pristine interiors, etc.   I just don't want to pay for that level of a job just to drive it to Austin and have rocks making holes in the paint.

We'll have to discuss panel painting vs assembled paint job.   Since the paint is a semi metallic, I may be limited to painting the car assembled.

[Homerr]

Choose whether you want a car to enjoy driving or trailering.   

[green69rt]

Choose whether you want a car to enjoy driving or trailering.   

I'm going to drive this as much as I can.   Bet on it!!!

[sardillim]

Hey Mitch

I've been following your build and read about the drooping nose issue.  Theses B body chassis are not the most rigid to begin with.   I would think that the shop that has the car has some sort of frame machine and would be able to easily bring the nose back into spec.   After everything is square I would strongly suggest you add a stiffing kit.  I believe the one I used is from xv motorsports and it connects the inner aprons to the cowl.  Here is a link to my thread if you want to see how this installed.   http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,54842.0.html
 

Good Luck

Mike

[green69rt]

Hey Mitch

I've been following your build and read about the drooping nose issue.  Theses B body chassis are not the most rigid to begin with.   I would think that the shop that has the car has some sort of frame machine and would be able to easily bring the nose back into spec.   After everything is square I would strongly suggest you add a stiffing kit.  I believe the one I used is from xv motorsports and it connects the inner aprons to the cowl.  Here is a link to my thread if you want to see how this installed.   http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,54842.0.html
 

Good Luck

Mike

Thanks.  When I replaced the inner rockers I used 14 gauge metal vs the 18 or 20 that is stock.  I'll will also add the US Car Tool frame connectors.     Beyond that we'll have to see.  I'm still not convinced that the nose actually droops but maybe just some bad alignment issues when I got the car or did the repairs.  Still waiting on the shops evaluation.

[sardillim]

This May Help You

Mike

[green69rt]

Thanks, my FSM has a similar diagram that I used for the measurements that I took.  I don't know if the shop has these specs.  Think I'll take a copy of the diagram to them.

[green69rt]

Just got back from the shop. I had a long conversation and crawled around under the car for about an hour.   Basic problem is that the shop estimated $15,000 to fix the body.   That included correcting some measurements that were already to within 1/8" of the FSM diagram.   Some were out 1/2" around the position of the rear spring hangers.   Biggest problem is still the front end frame.


So, the car will come home and I'm going to see what I can do.  Cost was way to high for me to leave it in their shop.   Even after I deleted all the stuff that was really ok, the cost was still around $9000 to fix the front frame, and I think they forgot some parts.  Their plan was to cut off the complete front clip and replace it with new stuff and tack everything in place, hang the fenders and hood and doors and when everything looked good ;weld it back together.   I got to believe I can do it for less.  So next thing is to call the tow company and schedule the shipment.

Just for grins, I also asked what the paint job was going to be.......another $15,000 which includes $5000 for materials.   Is that a reasonable number!!!!?

So now I'm just sitting here thinking how strong a drink to fix (maybe 2 or 3.)

[fy469rtse]

Shit, wish I was there to come give you a hand Mitch,
not as bad as this bill has made it seem, I notice paint just jumped up by a third,
photo's mate, before you take her apart, maybe we can help with plan of action , or the real work needed to be done , front clip is what's needed to be concentrated on,
you don't think I got mine perfect, ridgedly fixed down like you had it and propped to factory measurements, panels to be hung , off and on Mitch, minor stuff , that's what I want you to get your head around , it's made it seem worse leaving it there for an opinion from them,
$ Dollars of course your going to be cheaper its your labour ,would rather have you do it after seeing your work
get her home and start by posting photos, I would like to see how the doors line up, , don't want to get too far ahead yet , but how us some photo's close up Mitch espicially to where these bolts wouldn't line up, fenders and door alignment ? start by purchasing those US car tool frame connector's and the torque box's are a must, and will start from there       

[green69rt]

Shit, wish I was there to come give you a hand Mitch,
not as bad as this bill has made it seem, I notice paint just jumped up by a third,
photo's mate, before you take her apart, maybe we can help with plan of action , or the real work needed to be done , front clip is what's needed to be concentrated on,
you don't think I got mine perfect, ridgedly fixed down like you had it and propped to factory measurements, panels to be hung , off and on Mitch, minor stuff , that's what I want you to get your head around , it's made it seem worse leaving it there for an opinion from them,
$ Dollars of course your going to be cheaper its your labour ,would rather have you do it after seeing your work
get her home and start by posting photos, I would like to see how the doors line up, , don't want to get too far ahead yet , but how us some photo's close up Mitch espicially to where these bolts wouldn't line up, fenders and door alignment ? start by purchasing those US car tool frame connector's and the torque box's are a must, and will start from there       

Seems like I've been in this situation before.   Right now I just want to get it home and then sit and think about it for a week or two, maybe take a couple of measurements.  That always seems to help.

[fy469rtse]

Just reviewed critical points for me , I would be having a bourbon or two, get my head around that it its not that bad , no really its not that bad , just checked your thread for door hinge pillar and door alignment work , all good there,
I had a lot of trouble with the AMD fender lining up, after reviewing my photo's all the work lining up was done with the old fender and that was replaced after it got to panel shop, your's is front clip only, bonnet is good that's only adjustment 

[cdr]

when it gets home call me,i will help you come up with a fix.

[green69rt]

when it gets home call me,i will help you come up with a fix.

Deal!!

[sardillim]

That Sucks!

I will tell you that the nose can be moved around pretty easily.  I have used nothing more than a scissor jack to make a height adjustment on the left front corner of my car.  It shouldn't take much to anchor the car to something and align the chassis.  The trick will be establishing a datum line.  

Good Luck !

[fy469rtse]

I agree, had structural members ( steel beams ) made a temporary jig so I could set measurements, note it still moved Mitch , but close enough to get it right, the more I look the more it becomes just the front rails , Clip

[green69rt]

3 and working.

[green69rt]

My car is back in the garage.  (pic #1)  Already taken the front fenders off.  Before I go any further I just want to say that I don't believe the shop I took it too were trying to pull anything.  They are a high end restoration shop and that's how they approach a job.  I saw many cars in their shop that were beautiful, and some that were just strange.  The one, that stands out to me, was a kind of British jeep.   Someone was spending thousands of dollars to have it fully restored.   They were just too expensive for my job.

I do want to show a couple of things I've noticed about the AMD sheet metal.  Pic #2 is the gap between the new AMD cowl and the original door, Pic #3 shows the gap between the AMD cowl and the new AMD door.  Seems like AMD takes some care to make their parts work together but not necessarily work with original parts.

Another place that I might need to work on is the bottom of the doors, just looks crappy to me, both curves are AMD metal.  Even the driver side that is an AMD door looks the same.

[green69rt]

So a final note on AMD metal.  Even to an amateur's eye like mine, the reproduction is good but not exact.  Pic #1 shows the OE driver side fender.  Notice the smooth curve that I'm pointing at.  Pic#2 shows the AMD piece.  Much sharper curve, almost looks dented but I don't think it is, just a different profile.

Now on to the first repair.  The body man at the Mo Muscle recommended that I fix the pass door gap by making a slice down thru the front edge of the quarter and tap it back.  He said trying to grind the edge of the door should be a last resort.   So that' s how I going to do it.  Pic #3 shows the whole door and pic #4 show the mark on the door where he recommended the cut be made  ( I need to make it a nice clean straight line!)

[nvrbdn]

so it would be just cutting and rewelding back together?