12 second 440

[Fizzy]

I kow the FAST guys are doin it, but what does it take to get a 12 second 440 in a charger using factory exhaust manifolds. I'm would be willing to use non factory intake and heads. Just would avoid headers if I can.

[Ghoste]

That isn't an unrealistic goal at all depending on the how far into the 12's you are aiming for of course.  Really the best thing yo culd do is just pay careful attention to the assembly process and select parts that will work together well.  If you are open to aftermarket heads and intake then you should also get a camshaft to take advantage of them.  The regular racers will all have opinions on an ideal there but you have left yourself a nice open window for parts.  Don't cripple yourself by stopping there though, you will need a good converter and transmission build (I'm assuming it's an auto) and a rearend ratio to work with your other components.  A proper suspension setup and you're laughing.  I realize that is kind of a vague answer but your goal is not an impossible one and with headers being your only limitation makes for a nice combo.
Have you considered a stroker?

[Fizzy]

I have been considering a stroker, if the factory exhast manifolds don't restrict it to the point of being a waste. What I am doing is building a car like the one I never got to make as fast as I wanted when I was a kid. I am a body guy, not nessessarily an engine guy, and what I do know is 70s-80s technology. I would appreciate any opinions I can get on guys with 12 second something cars. It is a 70 R/T charger w/ 440 auto 8 3/4 rear end.

[firefighter3931]

I have been considering a stroker, if the factory exhast manifolds don't restrict it to the point of being a waste. What I am doing is building a car like the one I never got to make as fast as I wanted when I was a kid. I am a body guy, not nessessarily an engine guy, and what I do know is 70s-80s technology. I would appreciate any opinions I can get on guys with 12 second something cars. It is a 70 R/T charger w/ 440 auto 8 3/4 rear end.

Check out Mike's stroker. This is a very simple and easy build to duplicate and will run 12's without breaking a sweat...assuming you can get it to hook up. 

That is a HP Manifold type build and the cam profile was specced with that parameter in mind. The key to making manifolds work is the cam selection....reducing overlap works well with restrictive exhaust systems. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,43911.0.html



Ron


Ps. Welcome to the site 

[Fizzy]

That looks like something I would build. Any reports since he got it in the car? Is the 440 source stuff imported like it has been implied? If a guy was on a buy American kick what parts would you guys reccommend? My business is OK for now, but I think my money is going to stay in country.

[Ghoste]

440source isn't just implied, it's absolutely coming out of China.  If you want American for heads you are going to have to look at Edelebrock or Indy.  For a stroker crank I'm not sure anymore.  Somebody must still be making them in the US?  Cams and intakes you are pretty safe, pistons and rods you will have to check, some are some aren't.  You can almost go by the price to tell you where they are made but a better bet is to just contact the mfg and ask them.

[firefighter3931]

That looks like something I would build. Any reports since he got it in the car? Is the 440 source stuff imported like it has been implied? If a guy was on a buy American kick what parts would you guys reccommend? My business is OK for now, but I think my money is going to stay in country.

If you want to buy domestic steel it's going to cost you a LOT more. Callies crank is ~$1800, Oliver rods are ~ $1500 so it adds up quick. Most of the aftermarket stuff is offshore forgings and some of them have the finish work done in North America. Eagle, Scat, K1, Ohio Crank and even the lower line Callies (Compstar) are forged abroad.

I don't buy into all the hype...buy purchasing from a USA vendor you are still supporting a USA business.  The parts cost less to produce and those savings are passed onto the consumer, meaning a more economical build and more money in your pocket for gas and tires. 

The high end stuff is better from a quality standpoint but realisticly you won't make enough power to hurt/break any of the offshore stuff in typical street/strip trim. I have several cranks sitting on the shelf for future builds....some are stock some aftermarket. The next pair i will be using are an Eagle 4.5 stroke and an MP/Scat 4.15 stroke. Scat and Eagle rods matched to their respective cranks and Diamond Racing pistons. For any build making less than 1000hp these parts are more than sufficient. 



Ron

[Fizzy]

Ron, just asking, but are most people having good long term luck with the 440 source stuff. I guess I agree with the theory that if its overseas or nothing, like some of the sheetmetal, i am damn happy they are making parts at all. I would also ask, is there alot of difference in the aftermarket sheetmetal. I found US made 1/4 panels, but are the imports acceptable. Back when I was doing body work for a living, replacing rusty 73-80 chevy pickup sheetmetal was almost bread and butter work, but you could sure tell the difference in fit with aftermarket stuff. If it's good stuff now, then it is. Maybe we should be rating this stuff on this forum, like Year One does with its sheetmetal. There are just some parts that I don't need a lesson on, like 1/4 panels and crankshafts. My buddies and I have been out of this for 20 years, so I only have 20 year old info to base my decisions on, other than this forum.     

[firefighter3931]

The offshore stuff is descent....a 4340 forging is far superior to the stock 1053 crank that came in out HP motors from Ma Mopar. Sometimes, the finish work is suspect and needs to be corrected. To some machinists this is a big deal....to others they just fix it and move on. Even the high end stuff like Callies, Crower et al is not immune. In the past few years the quality of the finished product has improved and it's not as big an issue as it was say 5 years ago.

Lots of Racers are beating on foreign cranks week in, week out with no issues. It all boils down to the machining and attention to detail during the assembly process. Honestly, i've never even heard of a broken 440 source crank. The stock block will usually break/crack long before the crank does. 



Ron

[68pplcharger]

The engine will be easy to deal with and get into the 12's with factory manifolds. I don't know many people on this site,but I've read plenty of responses from Ron to know he knows his mopar engines. The traction isn't to hard to master either. Super stock springs and a properly set up pinion snubber from mopar works really well. If you want to stay with Mopar suspension components. Mopar did allot of homework in the 60,s to stay competitive in the Super Stock classes and make the factory suspensions work. There are plenty of mopar B bodies at Edgewater that run in the 12's all the way down to the 10's on nearly factory suspension and slicks. I read in articles that the guys in the F.A.S.T. class are running 11's and even high 10's have opened up the factory manifolds with acid dipping and porting.

[mopar_nut_440_6]

I have a 440 which has a 5/8 stroke billet hemi crank, TRW motorhome pistons, balanced, blueprinted, 915 heads ported, stainless valves, roller rockers and a MP 509 cam with a 950 Holley DP and street dominator intake. Stock non 6 pack rods shotpeend and beam polished. This engine was built before you could buy stroker kits and works out to 477 CI and 11.8:1 compression.

This engine ran an 11.43 using factory manifolds (extrude honed) through full exhaust in a 4000 lb 69 Charger with 3.23 gears. Superstock leaf springs, 10.5 x 28.0 slicks and a pinion snubber. Nothing special but everybody was quite surprised when the hood was popped and the engine appeared stock right down to factory valve covers and air cleaner. Then the car was kicked off the track for running too quick without a cage. LOL

This engine idles well although does require racing fuels or a 50/50 mix of av gas and 93 octane. This engine is super solid and extremely reliable. No issues driving it on the street with a 3800 stall. Daily driver for 3 years. Likes to shift at 5000 RPM and seems the more gear we took out of the car the faster it ran. We started with 4:56 and eventually ended with the 3:23's. 440's luv to pull but we were quite surprised to see how much this engine wants to be worked. 

[firefighter3931]

Likes to shift at 5000 RPM and seems the more gear we took out of the car the faster it ran. We started with 4:56 and eventually ended with the 3:23's. 440's luv to pull but we were quite surprised to see how much this engine wants to be worked. 

Not surprising to hear it likes 5k shiftpoints....Most 440's with mildly worked stock heads and the 509 are all done by 5800-6000 max. The added 37 cubes is just pushing the powerband lower. The cam is a little on the small side for a serious race build but overall it's working quite well, for what it is. 

The fact that it ET's better with the 3.23's shows that it was running out of steam before the traps with the deeper gears.    Sometimes less is more. 


Ron


Ps. Welcome to the website 

[mopar_nut_440_6]

Likes to shift at 5000 RPM and seems the more gear we took out of the car the faster it ran. We started with 4:56 and eventually ended with the 3:23's. 440's luv to pull but we were quite surprised to see how much this engine wants to be worked. 

Not surprising to hear it likes 5k shiftpoints....Most 440's with mildly worked stock heads and the 509 are all done by 5800-6000 max. The added 37 cubes is just pushing the powerband lower. The cam is a little on the small side for a serious race build but overall it's working quite well, for what it is. 

The fact that it ET's better with the 3.23's shows that it was running out of steam before the traps with the deeper gears.    Sometimes less is more. 


Ron


Ps. Welcome to the website 

Yes, you are correct, the cam is a bit small but the engine was built as a daily driver and it was what was kicking around. There is a lot more in this engine but that would require better heads and more cam. Maybe you can suggest something as I have been thinking of trying to find a set of aluminum head with a larger chamber so I can drop the compression a bit. The heads I have currently have been shaved.

Also, I almost forgot, the first 440 I built 25 years ago was a stock build with 906 heads a 509 cam, Holley Street Dominator and a 750 DP. It ran 12.8 @ 110 mph @2000 ft consitently. 4.56 gears, stock stall converter, 4.56 gears with a shift kit. I drove this daily on the street for 7 years and put over 1000 drag passes on it. I still have this engine in my garage. It is a trooper.

Cheers,

James

[firefighter3931]

Also, I almost forgot, the first 440 I built 25 years ago was a stock build with 906 heads a 509 cam, Holley Street Dominator and a 750 DP. It ran 12.8 @ 110 mph @2000 ft consitently. 4.56 gears, stock stall converter, 4.56 gears with a shift kit. I drove this daily on the street for 7 years and put over 1000 drag passes on it. I still have this engine in my garage. It is a trooper.

That sounds just like a friends 440 that i've helped tune. 3800lb Cuda street/strip ride, 3500 stall, 4.10's with 28in MT's. Best so far is 11.80's and it 60ft's in the 1.58 range. His has a set of stock rebuilt 915's and the performer RPM dual plane but otherwise identical to yours. Runs fine (and races) on pump gas. When he first started it was running mid 13's with the same basic combo....just a little tweaking found the missing ET. 

Oh ya, that engine now has 500+ passes on it and runs as good as ever. 

Yes, you are correct, the cam is a bit small but the engine was built as a daily driver and it was what was kicking around. There is a lot more in this engine but that would require better heads and more cam. Maybe you can suggest something as I have been thinking of trying to find a set of aluminum head with a larger chamber so I can drop the compression a bit. The heads I have currently have been shaved.

It shouldn't be difficult to pull some compression out of it with a larger chamber. The Edelbrock RPM or MP 452 aluminum castings are 84cc. Depending on your piston to deck measurements there's allways the option of going with a thicker head gasket to reduce volume and lower static compression. The cam selection will also influence cranking pressure....bigger cams bleed off cylinder pressure and help with detonation issues. The closed chamber head is a better choice, inmo....tight quench is preferable.

With that shortblock and a good head/cam package you could easily make 550hp/600tq without too much effort....and run on pump gas. 



Ron

[Fizzy]

Ron, o you ever talk about your 446 engine? Must be a reason you picked the combo you did.

[firefighter3931]

Ron, o you ever talk about your 446 engine? Must be a reason you picked the combo you did.

I've mentioned my engine here before but it's an old school build with nice heads and a custom cam....works pretty good for what it is. 



Ron

[mopar_nut_440_6]

Ron, o you ever talk about your 446 engine? Must be a reason you picked the combo you did.

I've mentioned my engine here before but it's an old school build with nice heads and a custom cam....works pretty good for what it is. 



Ron

Are you going to share?

[firefighter3931]

Ron, o you ever talk about your 446 engine? Must be a reason you picked the combo you did.

I've mentioned my engine here before but it's an old school build with nice heads and a custom cam....works pretty good for what it is. 



Ron

Are you going to share?

Nope....top secret ! 

Actually there was a long 4 page thread on the old board that detailed the entire build and subsequent dyno testing. That thread disappeared into oblivion with the demise of the original website. Lots of good data and dyno thrashing....a real R&D test mule. 

Basicly we beat on the thing to the tune of 85 dyno passes testing 4 intake manifolds, multiple carb and spacer combinations, 3 sets of different sized headers and 2 different cam profiles. The shortblock is basic old school stuff ; stock crank, stock rods, trw 6-pack replacement pistons....all very well machined and assembled. Static/dynamic balanced, square decked, finish honed with file to fit rings etc....The modern stuff is all in the top end : Custom Comp Solid lifter grind, Harland Sharp rocker arms, Ported Edelbrock RPM heads. Static compression is 10.5:1 and designed to run on pump gas. Timing 35 total 20 initial.

Max power was 560hp with a victor & 950hp carb but with the Street Dominator and my Proform 750 dp'er it made 535hp/540tq which is quite good on this dyno. For reference a buddy's engine made 555 on the same machine and ran mid 10's @ 128 in his 3700lb Satellite. I'm not looking for that kind of ET but i'm hoping for some low 11's at ~ 120 or so. (mine has less stall and less gear + more weight than my buddy....and a little less HP as well)

This engine is just temporary....we're in the process of building something real big and it will hit the dyno later this year. Completely new build with an extra 130 cubes and a lot more power. 


Ron

[mopar_nut_440_6]

Ron, o you ever talk about your 446 engine? Must be a reason you picked the combo you did.

I've mentioned my engine here before but it's an old school build with nice heads and a custom cam....works pretty good for what it is. 



Ron

Low 11's should be in the ballpark. The stroker I have ran 11.43 in a 4000 lb Charger, 3.23 gear, 3800 stall, superstock springs and a pinion snubber through the cast manifolds.

Oops, I think I just repeated myself.

Sounds like a great engine. It would be nice to tune on a dyno. All of mine has been done the old fashioned way on the drag strip!! Unfortunately our strip has closed so I do not know what I wil do. I did buy an afr for my turbocharged Duster so I could always hook that up and at least get the fuel right!

Cheers,

James

Are you going to share?

Nope....top secret ! 

Actually there was a long 4 page thread on the old board that detailed the entire build and subsequent dyno testing. That thread disappeared into oblivion with the demise of the original website. Lots of good data and dyno thrashing....a real R&D test mule. 

Basicly we beat on the thing to the tune of 85 dyno passes testing 4 intake manifolds, multiple carb and spacer combinations, 3 sets of different sized headers and 2 different cam profiles. The shortblock is basic old school stuff ; stock crank, stock rods, trw 6-pack replacement pistons....all very well machined and assembled. Static/dynamic balanced, square decked, finish honed with file to fit rings etc....The modern stuff is all in the top end : Custom Comp Solid lifter grind, Harland Sharp rocker arms, Ported Edelbrock RPM heads. Static compression is 10.5:1 and designed to run on pump gas. Timing 35 total 20 initial.

Max power was 560hp with a victor & 950hp carb but with the Street Dominator and my Proform 750 dp'er it made 535hp/540tq which is quite good on this dyno. For reference a buddy's engine made 555 on the same machine and ran mid 10's @ 128 in his 3700lb Satellite. I'm not looking for that kind of ET but i'm hoping for some low 11's at ~ 120 or so. (mine has less stall and less gear + more weight than my buddy....and a little less HP as well)

This engine is just temporary....we're in the process of building something real big and it will hit the dyno later this year. Completely new build with an extra 130 cubes and a lot more power. 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Low 11's should be in the ballpark. The stroker I have ran 11.43 in a 4000 lb Charger, 3.23 gear, 3800 stall, superstock springs and a pinion snubber through the cast manifolds.

Oops, I think I just repeated myself.

Sounds like a great engine. It would be nice to tune on a dyno. All of mine has been done the old fashioned way on the drag strip!! Unfortunately our strip has closed so I do not know what I wil do. I did buy an afr for my turbocharged Duster so I could always hook that up and at least get the fuel right!

Jim, the Moroso speed calculator is showing ~480hp to run 11.40's at 4000 lbs. For sure those manifolds were robbing a LOT of power....at least 50hp with a combo like yours. 

I saw on your Car domain page that you're from BC....are you close to Mission. That is an awesome track from what i hear with killer air and superb bite. 


A turbo'd slant 6....you are a mad scientist ! 



Ron

[mopar_nut_440_6]

Low 11's should be in the ballpark. The stroker I have ran 11.43 in a 4000 lb Charger, 3.23 gear, 3800 stall, superstock springs and a pinion snubber through the cast manifolds.

Oops, I think I just repeated myself.

Sounds like a great engine. It would be nice to tune on a dyno. All of mine has been done the old fashioned way on the drag strip!! Unfortunately our strip has closed so I do not know what I wil do. I did buy an afr for my turbocharged Duster so I could always hook that up and at least get the fuel right!

Jim, the Moroso speed calculator is showing ~480hp to run 11.40's at 4000 lbs. For sure those manifolds were robbing a LOT of power....at least 50hp with a combo like yours. 

I saw on your Car domain page that you're from BC....are you close to Mission. That is an awesome track from what i hear with killer air and superb bite. 


A turbo'd slant 6....you are a mad scientist ! 



Ron

Hi Ron,

Yes, the manifolds made a huge difference. When headers were put on the car picked up a half second in the 1/8 with the same exact setup. The engine looked stock including air cleaner, except for the holley dominator intake but it was painted to match the engine, my buddy wanted to have the ultimate sleeper.

I live in Prince George which is 500 miles north of Mission. I have actually never been to the track as I have been completely out of the sport for the last 12 years. I have raced at Ashcroft which is about 200 miles north of Mission. It is also very good, hot as hell but well run, great track and also super bite! We have a track here but there is no support so it has struggled to stay open for years. I am thinking it may be done now!

Where are you from?

[firefighter3931]

Hi Ron,

Yes, the manifolds made a huge difference. When headers were put on the car picked up a half second in the 1/8 with the same exact setup. The engine looked stock including air cleaner, except for the holley dominator intake but it was painted to match the engine, my buddy wanted to have the ultimate sleeper.

I live in Prince George which is 500 miles north of Mission. I have actually never been to the track as I have been completely out of the sport for the last 12 years. I have raced at Ashcroft which is about 200 miles north of Mission. It is also very good, hot as hell but well run, great track and also super bite! We have a track here but there is no support so it has struggled to stay open for years. I am thinking it may be done now!

Where are you from?

Wow, you are waaay up north ! 

I'm in the East....Ottawa, Ontario. Closest "descent" track is in Napierville, Que which is a 2.5hr tow. Our local track, if you want to call it that... is a POS. Mainly 1/8th mile stuff because the surface past the 660' is so fubarred.    Still ok for Test n tune but the bite there sucks....owner is too cheap to spend cash on VHT. 

I want to see pics of that Duster....please 



Ron


Ps. Not surprised to hear the ET improvement with headers on your combo....those tight lobed cam profiles don't respond well to restrictive exhaust systems....too much overlap kills any scavenging.

[mopar_nut_440_6]

Hi Ron,

Yes, the manifolds made a huge difference. When headers were put on the car picked up a half second in the 1/8 with the same exact setup. The engine looked stock including air cleaner, except for the holley dominator intake but it was painted to match the engine, my buddy wanted to have the ultimate sleeper.

I live in Prince George which is 500 miles north of Mission. I have actually never been to the track as I have been completely out of the sport for the last 12 years. I have raced at Ashcroft which is about 200 miles north of Mission. It is also very good, hot as hell but well run, great track and also super bite! We have a track here but there is no support so it has struggled to stay open for years. I am thinking it may be done now!

Where are you from?

Wow, you are waaay up north ! 

I'm in the East....Ottawa, Ontario. Closest "descent" track is in Napierville, Que which is a 2.5hr tow. Our local track, if you want to call it that... is a POS. Mainly 1/8th mile stuff because the surface past the 660' is so fubarred.    Still ok for Test n tune but the bite there sucks....owner is too cheap to spend cash on VHT. 

I want to see pics of that Duster....please 



Ron


Ps. Not surprised to hear the ET improvement with headers on your combo....those tight lobed cam profiles don't respond well to restrictive exhaust systems....too much overlap kills any scavenging.

I have a link to pics of my cars in my signature. The Duster is there. It is nothing special. I bought the car to put the stroker into and it was in such good shape that I did not have the heart to start chopping it up. I decided why not try to turbocharge as I had always wanted to do one. It was pretty simple overall and I learnt a lot. Next one will be a breeze! Can you say Twin Turbo 440? I already bought some headers for this!

The stroker may find it's way in there though as I think it would be a waste to shove it in my Charger and choke it up. Plus, the poor fuel mileage will definitely detract from a car I want to drive.

Cheers,

James