440 source roller rockers

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

Hi guys I have a 440 I built 2 years ago. Engine is still sitting on stand. My car is not done yet.  Im reconsidering parts I have on the engine. I bought these 440 source roller rockers. I only have them because I needed to adjust my valves because the dumb machine shop ended up having the valves at different heights. With a straight edge across them they were all different. So I bought the 440 source 1.6 ratio aluminum roller rockers with needle bearings. However I also have a cam that is much more radical than stock. Cam is hydraulic flat tappet
COM21-227-4

RPM RANGE 2000-5800

ADV. DURATION 275/287

DURATION @ .050 231/237

VALVE LIFT .525/.525

LOBE CENTER 110

The 1.6 ratio makes the actual lift .560 and makes the duration more?? I have arp bolts and aluminum hold downs. I also have comp cams dual valve springs. Im using ported 67 915 heads with manley stainless 2.14 in 1.74 ex with hardened seats. This is a street engine with 10-1 compression and stock stroke .30 over. I dont plan on drag racing. I just dont want these rockers to blow up. I have been hearing that any aluminum rocker is not a good idea?
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave

[aifilaw]

I purchased some myself, but have not finished the engine either.
I know that they have sold several hundred of those rockers, and I only know of one quality issue with them that was posted here a while back, do a search and you should pull it up with pictures. I believe one of the shaft pins worked its way out.

[daytonalo]

If they are cast alum , throw them in the trash , they have no right being installed in any HP engine !!! My engine builder installed them in my last engine and one broke , spilling needle bearings everywhere

[purple charger]

The only problem I had is according to 440 Source you cannot tighten the set more then 10 pounds, On start up  we broke three.  Had to take the complete motor apart to clean everything.  Look at all the different brands that are made of Aluminium; like you I have  you I have a motor waiting for the paint to get done. and waiting and  waiting almost 4 years

[mally69]

Take my advise on this. I had a set and i had a roller on the tip break loose twice, but on different sides. the first time was mild and didnt do much other than rap like crazy but the second time was a doooooozy. The pin that holds the roller in place snapped off which made like a fork at the end of the rocker which pushed on the retainer that caused the locks to dissconnect from the valve which in turn dropped a valve. I wouldnt use them. For a few axtra more bucks just buy the crane gold rockers.  .

[badass]

How about Harland Sharp I think made in Clevland Ohio?

[aifilaw]

I think there's some generalizations being made here.
yes the iron ductile stock rockers are bulletproof, we know.
For those looking for roller rockers, there are plenty out there on the market. And I have seen several sets, and heard of hundreds of sets of cast aluminum rockers being used on engines making 500-1000 HP and surviving just fine.

[mally69]

the ones i had that broke were from 440 source.

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

I read the post from about your 440 source rockers roller tip breaking off and ruining your engine. You had not one but TWO fail! There is NO way after reading how cheap the 440 source rockers are. They look very nice and the SAME as the high dollar brands, but the China metals are probably not as good as USA made rockers. Im not going to risk ruining a engine I spent $5000 building.

I also think JESSEL rockers are JUNK. Did anyone read the most recent mopar muscle? There is a 440 build that used JESSEL rockers and TWO of the valve lash adjuster studs sheered off. The engine was running like this. When they went to adjust valve lash the adjuster was separated. So, Whats the deal with rockers arms always failing? I guess the most bullet proof design is the stock type iron ductile rockers from mopar performance I think they are the best choice for a street engine.

[mally69]

I read the post from about your 440 source rockers roller tip breaking off and ruining your engine. You had not one but TWO fail! There is NO way after reading how cheap the 440 source rockers are. They look very nice and the SAME as the high dollar brands, but the China metals are probably not as good as USA made rockers. Im not going to risk ruining a engine I spent $5000 building.

I also think JESSEL rockers are JUNK. Did anyone read the most recent mopar muscle? There is a 440 build that used JESSEL rockers and TWO of the valve lash adjuster studs sheered off. The engine was running like this. When they went to adjust valve lash the adjuster was separated. So, Whats the deal with rockers arms always failing? I guess the most bullet proof design is the stock type iron ductile rockers from mopar performance I think they are the best choice for a street engine.

I agree about the ductile iron rockers, those are good and not that expensive, they just aren't rollerised. I run crane gold alum roller rockers and I like them and they are decent also. But if you have the extra oney I would try and shoot for TD alum roller rockers, or the steel comp pro magnum roller rockers.

[oldschool]

I read the post from about your 440 source rockers roller tip breaking off and ruining your engine. You had not one but TWO fail! There is NO way after reading how cheap the 440 source rockers are. They look very nice and the SAME as the high dollar brands, but the China metals are probably not as good as USA made rockers. Im not going to risk ruining a engine I spent $5000 building.

I also think JESSEL rockers are JUNK. Did anyone read the most recent mopar muscle? There is a 440 build that used JESSEL rockers and TWO of the valve lash adjuster studs sheered off. The engine was running like this. When they went to adjust valve lash the adjuster was separated. So, Whats the deal with rockers arms always failing? I guess the most bullet proof design is the stock type iron ductile rockers from mopar performance I think they are the best choice for a street engine.

have you ever used jessel rocker arms? what makes you say they are junk,just a mag article? their could be alot of reasons why the adjusters failed,not just the arms are junk.i use them in my 572" motor with a seat preasure of 260# and open 600#. i turn the motor to 7200 rpm,and have never had a problem.alot of pro stock guys use them in their 3000 hp motors. i will go out on a limb and say,if you spent $ 5000 on your motor, that a jessel setup will be WAY MORE than you need,and your motor could not hurt them!

[defiance]

Anybody else tried the stainless steel rockers that have been on ebay lately?  They look like fine pieces.  Brass bushing on the shaft, adjustable cup back side (so they use standard double-ball pushrods), roller tip, and stainless steel.  I'm trying a set and they look rock solid, line up perfectly, were a breeze to adjust, etc.  Obviously they're ebay stuff, so we'll see how it lasts, but they *look* well constructed...  We'll see how they hold up ... assuming I get the guts to actually crank my engine

[mally69]

Anybody else tried the stainless steel rockers that have been on ebay lately?  They look like fine pieces.  Brass bushing on the shaft, adjustable cup back side (so they use standard double-ball pushrods), roller tip, and stainless steel.  I'm trying a set and they look rock solid, line up perfectly, were a breeze to adjust, etc.  Obviously they're ebay stuff, so we'll see how it lasts, but they *look* well constructed...  We'll see how they hold up ... assuming I get the guts to actually crank my engine

You got any pics of them?

[defiance]

Not really...  kinda ...

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,44241.0.html

There's a super-close-up pic of the back when I was fiddling with some pushrods I got for near-free (ended up being too short, but oh well, they were dirt cheap!).  I'll get some actual pics of them later and post again.

[defiance]

Here's an auction.  The pics are pretty accurate.  I'll see about getting pics of my set on the engine in a bit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MOPAR-383-400-440-Stainless-1-5-Roller-Rockers-Shafts_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem380101600502QQitemZ380101600502QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[defiance]

Here we go

[defiance]

last one-

So yeah, they look rock solid line up and set up nice, and the price includes rockers, shafts, bolts, hold-downs, and spacers- and given that they're bushed, the pins on the roller tips are relatively huge, and they're made of stainless, it seems like there's really not much that could go wrong...

[firefighter3931]

I read the post from about your 440 source rockers roller tip breaking off and ruining your engine. You had not one but TWO fail! There is NO way after reading how cheap the 440 source rockers are. They look very nice and the SAME as the high dollar brands, but the China metals are probably not as good as USA made rockers. Im not going to risk ruining a engine I spent $5000 building.

I also think JESSEL rockers are JUNK. Did anyone read the most recent mopar muscle? There is a 440 build that used JESSEL rockers and TWO of the valve lash adjuster studs sheered off. The engine was running like this. When they went to adjust valve lash the adjuster was separated. So, Whats the deal with rockers arms always failing? I guess the most bullet proof design is the stock type iron ductile rockers from mopar performance I think they are the best choice for a street engine.

have you ever used jessel rocker arms? what makes you say they are junk,just a mag article? their could be alot of reasons why the adjusters failed,not just the arms are junk.i use them in my 572" motor with a seat preasure of 260# and open 600#. i turn the motor to 7200 rpm,and have never had a problem.alot of pro stock guys use them in their 3000 hp motors. i will go out on a limb and say,if you spent $ 5000 on your motor, that a jessel setup will be WAY MORE than you need,and your motor could not hurt them!

Jesel makes top shelf stuff....and that is reflected in the price. They are far from "junk"  

The article in question was from the latest MM and the rocker arms were NOT Jesel, they are in fact 1.7 ratio Harland Sharps. Harland Sharp rockers are excellent quality as well. The builder in this case is pushing the envelope with this build to create a dyno mule magazine engine. The 1.7 rockers and .800 lift at the valve with a solid roller cam that is running obscene spring pressure needs some upgraded hardware. Smith Brothers sells hardened adjusters that are bulletproof....that is what i would use in that type of application.


As for the original question ; 440 source rockers or any "budget" off shore rocker would not be my first choice. There are areas you can cheat on but the valvetrain is not one of them.  



Ron

[badass]

Thats what I thought, what he said :yesnod:Those horsepower challenge motors are looking for the biggest number , probelly never see anything but the dyno, but is a good super stress test and they seem to use the high quality stuff.but they dont know anything do they? I learned the hard way ,still learning. Everyone likes to save hard earned money and spend it wisely .Personaly I took my 440 sourse sticker off of my welding helmet for now Im on a serious made in USA kick its hard

[ronv]

I have been using the Comp Cams ProMagnum rockers for some time now. They have held up to my monthly romps down the drag strip @ 6800 rpm. (using nitrous). I have had the push rods come out of the cups twice but that was after mis-shifts.
Driver error.   

[frederick]

Defiance, are your rockers made by CAT, or better quality?
http://www.catpep.com/catproducts/rockerarmandgirdle/ssmountrocker.asp

[defiance]

I believe they are CAT.

[Challenger340]

I gotta add my 

I think the vast majority of Rocker Arm related problems, which results in the usual "bad product" reputations, is largely a result of "bad practise" as much as "poor product".

Don't shoot me here !

But, I've seen many times, the "BEST" Rockers on the market FAIL, and equally numerous times, the supposedly "inferior" Rocker systems give quite good service, for the money-spent !

What I'm talking here is two-fold;
1.) "Rocker Arm Geometry" and it's importance , as related to survivability of the Valvetrain.
2.) Check, Check, and CHECK again, as there are no true "bolt-on" Rockers Systems anymore, for our 50 yr old design engines, and plethora of aftermarket pieces out there for them.

Example;
Although I do NOT, Reccomend Crane Gold Rockers for applications above 360 lb open pressures(Solid Rollers), favoring "better" stuff to cover my own ass,
I can't argue the fact with my Customers,
that I've still got Drag Engines out there(800 hp stuff) , that come back for "freshening" every 300-350 pulls or so, that are running Roller Cams @ 220 lb seat, 600 open pressure @ 7000 rpm with the Crane Gold Race Rockers(cheapies).

YES, we always cycle them out at freshening, in favor of a new set, and always Rec he keep a few "spares in the Trailer", but they seem to live just fine !
Very tough to "upsell" Customers into $1000 U.S. set of Rockers while refreshening, when his "cheapies" that cost $249 U.S., work just fine !

We use a Sunnen VGS to rough cut all our Valve Seats to the same height(important)
We go back in with stones, THATS RIGHT, S T O N E S, to correct the concentricity, (because if anybody believes a VGS is "perfect", well, you go you ahead).
Then,
We spend TIME during mock-up, to build the correct geometry pushrod, and Oiling.

Again, I'm too long winded here, my point being, when it comes to Rockers & Geometry, spend the time to READ up, then Check it when installing.
Thats the only way to make even "cheapy" Rockers look like Champs !

Bob out.

[Ghoste]

Not long winded at all Bob.  I don't have your experience at all but I do know that everything with cars seems to come down to prep.  The best paint and bodywork?  Prep.  The best drivers will always mentally run through the race several times before the next run.  I've heard of Formula 1 drivers spending days in a simulator prior to each race.  Engines?  Prep, prep, and prep.  The time spend in poring over the tiniest of details and making each of tem perfect is what a blueprinted engine is really all about and it's why a stock eliminator version of our cars can run soooooo much quicker with it's extremely limited modifications compared to our stock versions with all of their quickie bolt ons.

[72charger440]

i bought a set of the 440 source rollers 1.5 ratio i installed them but havent run the engine yet. are they that bad?

[72charger440]

and the valve spring are the stock ones not ones for an hp engine

[mally69]

i bought a set of the 440 source rollers 1.5 ratio i installed them but havent run the engine yet. are they that bad?

personally for only a few more bucks I would go with crane golds for your app, I would not use those 440 source rockers on anything. 

[72charger440]

the only prob wit that is ive got the rockers awhile ago and ive installed them already in my 440 and i put my engine back into my charger. so will they be ok if i run them for a little bit because my heads are stock, and i dont have the money 2 buy new ones ive grad high school last yrs about 2 pay for college and so i cant buy anything else for awhile and this cars going 2 b my daily driver, and i dont think 440 source will take them back and give me a refund but idk

[mally69]

Well i had alot of problems with mine i had adjusters break off several times and 2 rollers came off and cuased me to have to rebuild my entire engine becuase it ended up swallowing a valve becuase of a weak valvetrain. I am gonna have to say NO dont use them, but thats just my advise, especially being a daily driver like you said thats alot of use on those rockers, i know for a fact i didnt have very many miles on mine before stuff started to happen. You do what ya want, but I would never use them on anything ever again. 

[72charger440]

thanks. yeah i dont know what 2 do i dont want 2 rebuild my 440 again and i will b pissed because i have almost 5 grand into  it. anybody think they will give me a refund?

[mally69]

thanks. yeah i dont know what 2 do i dont want 2 rebuild my 440 again and i will b pissed because i have almost 5 grand into  it. anybody think they will give me a refund?

A refund.. not a chance. You should ebay them, and buy a set of crane ductile iron rockers. They are strong and cheaper than the crane golds i believe. But they are non roller which in your engine having stock heads and such I would shoot for those instead.

[Ghoste]

Which begs the question, at what point do roller rockers become a "must"?

[72charger440]

my only prob with that is i would like 2 have rollers but i dont need them i do need adjutables because of my cam.

[Rob R]

Hardened Adj for real hi perf rockers are around $100 for 16...Crower/T&D...so when you buy these economical rockers how good do you think the adj are going to be ? that's why there are soooo many issues with adj and the other is over tightening the lock nut puts too much strain on the adj screw...
And those stainless rockers hold a ferocious amount of heat compared to alum rockers and transfer that heat into the valve and guide.IMO I see accelerated valve guide wear and seat issues when I take apart STREET engines that run those comp stainless rockers...could be just a coincidence maybe the customer never changed his oil or RPM'ed the shit out of it  It's just 3-4 sets of heads I've taken apart that ran a stainless rocker had excessive wear compared to Dove/Indy style rockers....just my take on it

[72charger440]

well i talked 2 the owner of 440 source 2day and we talked about the issues about the rockes and all he told me was that the only real prob with them was people over tightening them and just need 2 get them 2 the right spot on the adjusters and they would b fine and then we talked about my engine and he said those rockers are best for my engine because its almost stock. then i asked him about the pin in the roller on the rockers coming out and makin the valve drop he said he never heard of that happening b4

[defiance]

Ok, do a search on mally's posts, he's got it WELL documented with SCARY pictures.  The pin clearly came out and forced a valve lock loose, dropped a valve, tore the crap out a 440source head and and did some major damage to the block and piston in the meantime.  Brandon ended up replacing the head, and was highly involved with the post-problem support, so I can't believe he would have forgotten that kind of major failure. 

Keep in mind, I actually like 440source, and run a bunch of their stuff on my engine, but mally's not talking crap about the rockers, those pictures were downright terrifying.

here's the thread.  There are quite a few more pics beyond the first page.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,41430.0.html

[72charger440]

what would his stuff be under on that stuff

[72charger440]

what kind of lifters was he using hydralic or solid and what heads was he using my dad wants 2 know hes an engine builder

[aifilaw]

I'll be running a set of 440-source roller rockers, combined with a set of 440-source hydraulic roller lifters on a 280ish split pattern cam on a 4.28" bore, 3.75" stroke, et cetera. aka, a pretty mild build.

After reading some of the complaints and looking at the pictures there are a few adjustments I'm going to be making.
1. Locks and Retainers from the 440-Source aluminum head are getting thrown in the trash in favor of comp 15-degree set
2. In about 5-10,000 miles I will be putting in a better stronger set of double spring valve springs
3. I will be ensuring beyond a shadow of a doubt that my lrocker tips, lash, et cetera et cetera ad infinitum are measured, checked and double-checked before the engine is finished and fired up.
Why? Because after I swap valve springs the idea is never to have to even remove a valve cover for another 95,000 miles.

Second, I think a lot of the wear, and destruction issues (no offense to you if you don't fit this description) are because people with no knowledge of engine building buy cheap parts because they are on a budget, or because they are just being chintzy on a build that requires more, purchase these 440-source rockers and install them incorrectly, or with other mismatched parts, or abuse them in such a way as to make them fail.
I do this because now, if they fail on mine, I can know without a shadow of a doubt there is a production issue on those rockers, and am able to clearly and concisely document it to the manufacturer.

[72charger440]

whats your lift on ur cam aifilaw?

[aifilaw]

0.361 which equates to 0.541 at the valve

[72charger440]

cool thanks my lift on my cam is .420. mine might b ok then.

[firefighter3931]

cool thanks my lift on my cam is .420. mine might b ok then.

With a .420 lift cam why is it that you feel that a roller rocker is required ? 


Ron

[72charger440]

my cam required adjustable rockers and then i  found these and were told by other mopar guy in my town that they were a good product so i bought them.

[firefighter3931]

my cam required adjustable rockers and then i  found these and were told by other mopar guy in my town that they were a good product so i bought them.

Who told you that a .420 lift cam requires adjustable rockers ? Is this a solid cam or hydraulic ? Roller or flat tappet ?


Ron

[72charger440]

its an edelbrock  performer RPM 1500- 6500 rpm cam it says in my book that came with it says  requires  adjustable valve train.

[firefighter3931]

its an edelbrock  performer RPM 1500- 6500 rpm cam it says in my book that came with it says  requires  adjustable valve train.

That cam does not require adjustable rockers. Many manufacturers like to push people in that direction to sell parts but in your case it is not required.

Personally, i would use the stock stamped rocker arms and be done with it. EBay those 440 source rockers. 



Ron

[72charger440]

the stock rockers would be ok?   then all i would a have 2 do is but new shafts for them old ones were broken in half when i first bought my car

[Ghoste]

You could really splurge and use the heavy duty stamped steel ones.   

[mally69]

If you need shafts I have am old set laying around I could sell ya.

[mally69]

Might be better off to get new ones but I do have an old set if you really want them.

[72charger440]

t

If you need shafts I have am old set laying around I could sell ya.

thanks. my only question now is will the factory hold up power wise with all the hp stuff in my engine?

[mally69]

t

If you need shafts I have am old set laying around I could sell ya.

thanks. my only question now is will the factory hold up power wise with all the hp stuff in my engine?

It should. I ran the factory rockers with .501 lift for about 2000 miles before I had a pushrod poke through. but your not running near that much lift so it should be fine. Its the lift that kills the factory style rockers.

[72charger440]

right right. i think i should buy all new rockers from summit racing. do those come with the shafts or just rockers?

[Ghoste]

You can get them both ways.

[72charger440]

cool i need both then

[Rolling_Thunder]

the stock rockers will be fine with your application. 

[firefighter3931]

right right. i think i should buy all new rockers from summit racing. do those come with the shafts or just rockers?

Mancini Racing has everything you need and bundles it all together in a nice package ; rockers/shafts/spacers/holdowns/bolts. 

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mrepacspecbr.html

Get some new Chrome moly pushrods while you're at it ;

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/hy440chmo.html


These parts will provide years of trouble free service. No worries of roller axles falling out and potentailly ruining your engine. I've run these rocker arms with flat tappet hydraulic cams in the .520 lift range without issue....so if you decide to upsize your cam in the future there's no need to replace parts. 


The few rocker arm failures (pushrods popping through the rockers) i've seen have been with high milage factory rocker arms running agressive cam profiles. Under those conditions the rocker arm was exceeding it's service life.

The MP heavy duty rocker arms are reinforced in the cup area and are designed for severe duty. The chrome shafts are near indestructable as long as you don't over torque them during installation. The heavy wall chrome moly pushrods are also extremely strong....i've yet to see one break.



Ron

[badass]

There ya go buddy isnt this site great ? thats what i got from mancini too with a comp268 cam well be alright 440 source makes me wonder .