Bogus cars, clones, and outright fraud??

[Ghoste]

An expensive propostion so far for "just available" when there are plenty of other 440's around.  We're both dancing around it but here is my verdict; engine swaps are as common as dirt so it hardly constitutes fraud or anything else.  I think you are maybe reading what I put up out of context, my point was not that installing a different engine is fradulent but rather that everyone has their own definition of whats okay to change on a car.  A poorly worded example on my part I suppose.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

An expensive propostion so far for "just available" when there are plenty of other 440's around.  We're both dancing around it but here is my verdict; engine swaps are as common as dirt so it hardly constitutes fraud or anything else.  I think you are maybe reading what I put up out of context, my point was not that installing a different engine is fradulent but rather that everyone has their own definition of whats okay to change on a car.  A poorly worded example on my part I suppose.

When I saw your thread title, I assumed that like in the Moparts threads it would be about engine and transmission restamping, car rebodying, fake broadcast sheets from Arizona, and the like...

The engine now is not that much more expensive than other standard bore 1969 440s, a bit more but not a large premium.  I thought that since "Rick's 440" was not going to be bought by Rick, giving it a home in another C500 with a VIN# 28 units earlier would be a good idea...

I was getting close to working out a deal to get the engine out of it's limbo, but will now pass on the purchase.  Maybe the six forum members who contacted me over the last 15 or so months to give Rick "more time" will get together and buy it for Rick... or maybe it will be making passes down the track later this year in a Duster.

XS

[Ghoste]

The title is awkward as well.  My curiosity was raised by a variety of things and just wanting to find out where people stood.  We've been talking about Jerry Jeunemans car and Ricks engine (and where it should go) and discussing so much about whats okay and what isn't that I think I was trying to narrow down opinions on a broad brush of interest.  Discover the gray areas if you will.  So far everyone is pretty much of the same opinion about rebody and restamp issues.  Clones and dealer add ons didn't generate the discussion that I thought they would.  Not about whether they are right or wrong but should they be preserved as such forever?

[xs29j8Bullitt]

The title is awkward as well.  My curiosity was raised by a variety of things and just wanting to find out where people stood.  We've been talking about Jerry Jeunemans car and Ricks engine (and where it should go) and discussing so much about whats okay and what isn't that I think I was trying to narrow down opinions on a broad brush of interest.  Discover the gray areas if you will.  So far everyone is pretty much of the same opinion about rebody and restamp issues.  Clones and dealer add ons didn't generate the discussion that I thought they would.  Not about whether they are right or wrong but should they be preserved as such forever?

Between the title and the way the sentence was worded, I thought the meaning was clear... maybe I was wrong?

"Others would happily put Ricks 440 in their 500 even though it doesn't completely match their car just because it has the treasured XX."

Thanks for explaining your intent for the thread.  Like many Mopar fans, I want no part of restamping or other fraudulent practices.  I like clones that are openly acknowledged, with no attempt to deceive... so called "tribute" cars are a different story...

XS

[Troy]

Well, I'd say restamped drivelines are right up there with a rebody. Any altering of identification numbers is illegal as far as I know (not sure if every state considers the engine or trans as part of the car's ID though). Swapping engines is, unfortunately, a necessary evil. I know some people would prefer to have an unstamped "warranty block" but it still isn't the original. The next best thing I suppose is a "date coded" block and getting one from a car only a few numbers away would almost guarantee the correct date. The VIN stamped on it wouldn't matter to me as it's still incorrect. Can anyone see it once it's in the car?

Troy

[C_stripes]

Well, I'd say restamped drivelines are right up there with a rebody. Any altering of identification numbers is illegal as far as I know (not sure if every state considers the engine or trans as part of the car's ID though). Swapping engines is, unfortunately, a necessary evil. I know some people would prefer to have an unstamped "warranty block" but it still isn't the original. The next best thing I suppose is a "date coded" block and getting one from a car only a few numbers away would almost guarantee the correct date. The VIN stamped on it wouldn't matter to me as it's still incorrect. Can anyone see it once it's in the car?

Troy

I have a question about the numbers being a few off.  I heard of a car a while back that the engine and trans were both one number off of the vin, (Example, car. 100001- Engine/Trans. 100002) The guy that owned it bought it from the orig owner who said nothing had ever been done to the car. So it was more than likely a typo. How would that be considered?

I also agree that changing the numbers on the block and trans is illegal and wrong.

Jeremy

[Ghoste]

There will always be occasional mistakes cropping up from the factory, I think they can usually be verified without too much trouble.  Whether it affects the value of the car or not I have no idea.  I don't think it would for me but then again if I were purchasing an investment grade car... 

[Magnumcharger]

I am more of the guy that says "it's your car, do what you want." But there are also cars out there that that should not be the case. For instance. My plans for my Numbers matching 340 Duster are to upgrade the suspension and braking system. I want 4 wheel disks, Dana 60, sub-frame connectors, and 16-18" wheels. I want white leather interior with B blue piping and black carpets. So it will have just a little different look. The 340 will be sitting on an engine stand and I will have a built 360. The one thing that I will do is make it so that nothing is permanent. If I sell it, Tufcat will be able to but it back100% stock. I haven't forgot that you want it Tufcat  . On the other hand. You have the cars like my friends 70 Road Runner AD car. That car needs to be put 100% stock. I am not a  fan of trailer queens, but in the case of cars like that. I find it exceptable. The thing on that car is that it served double for plymouth. It was Yellow in the ad and lime light in the promo video. What should you go with? It's going yellow as that's what the fender tag says.

Re-bodies;
Here's a scenario. You find a EV2 70 R code HEMI 4spd charger R/T with factory Go wing and power windows with heater delete in a farmers field. The car was rolled over back in '72. You talk to the farmer and he has the numbers matching HEMI and 4dpd as well as the Dana 60 and seats in the barn. Have not been touched since about '75. Between the rollover and sitting in the flood arrogated field, the ONLY use able sheet metal is the firewall and driver side inner fender well. The rest is either rusted or badly damaged. The farmer tells you that you can have it all for $3k. You give him the money and he gives you the orig title, window sticker, sales agreement and a paper that he found in the back of the seat(build sheet). So you have all of the orig paperwork on a numbers matching low mile 70 HEMI R/T. So you get it home and start the resto. You buy all sorts of cool AMD sheet metal. You part out that 70 charger 318 car you had and use the front clip and the roof. You put the car all back together and the ONLY orig sheet metal to the HEMI car is the firewall and driver inner fender. You also managed to save the trunk lip and the core support with extensive work.   

Okay. You didn't just re badge your 318 car like you could have, but there is VERY little that was on the charger originally. How is that NOT a re-body?

I am not saying that it is wrong to restore a car correctly and I am not saying that its right to buy a 318 charger and just add the HEMI car stuff. But in all actuality, The resulting product is the same. 

As for Clones. They definitely have their pluses. Like you dare to drive them like they were intended.

Funny....If you delete "70 Hemi R/T" and insert "'69 Hemi Daytona", I could say I've actually seen that car, and heard that story before...

[chargerkid01]

I don't mind paint or a couple mods to the engine but cloning and rebody sucks just my

[hemigeno]

The engine now is not that much more expensive than other standard bore 1969 440s, a bit more but not a large premium.  I thought that since "Rick's 440" was not going to be bought by Rick, giving it a home in another C500 with a VIN# 28 units earlier would be a good idea...

I was getting close to working out a deal to get the engine out of it's limbo, but will now pass on the purchase.  Maybe the six forum members who contacted me over the last 15 or so months to give Rick "more time" will get together and buy it for Rick... or maybe it will be making passes down the track later this year in a Duster.

XS

Allen,

I'm sorry to hear that you're contemplating a change in your plans.  If Rick is still inclined to pass on the block, I personally liked the thought of the engine being back in another Charger 500 - especially one that close in VIN.  A couple years back I purchased the transmission from another St. Louis-built '69 HemiCharger built the same month as my R/T.  Even though it is no "better" than the non-numbers-matching transmission it currently has, I felt it was neat to have one that "close".  Same goes for my Daytona's engine block.  I searched for YEARS to find a good E440 HP block with correct dates, and finally found what I was looking for - and it has an unstamped VIN pad to boot.  That would be one of the easiest re-stamps in the world to make, as it would be the first time the pad was ever stamped (no machining necessary and no evidence of a prior VIN detectable in the crystallization pattern of the metal).  One of the reasons I've posted several pictures of the block and mentioned this point several times, is so that the car's history will be known publicly.  No future owner (hope there's not one for a loooong time) will be able to restamp the block without risk of being called out as a fraud.  Non-numbers-matching cars like yours and mine are still non-numbers-matching cars even with "close" engines or transmissions.  I'm of the same opinion, that having something "close" - when available - is better than any other option.  Hope you reconsider and keep Rick's block on your shopping list if he's still taking a pass.



As far as the original question in this thread, Dealer-added mod's and custom paint jobs add character to a car, but don't change its identity.  The other two options on the poll mess with a car's identity/pedigree.  That's why they're over the line in my book.

[hotrod98]

I don't mind paint or a couple mods to the engine but cloning and rebody sucks just my

I can't help it of there were less than 500 real Daytonas built and I didn't end up with one of them. 

My clone takes nothing away from the real Daytonas and is intended to be a tribute, not a replacement. I think that many of the owners of real Daytonas wouldn't mind having an exact duplicate clone of their car to go out and terrorize the streets with. Saves the possiblilty of having that little bubble brained blonde that's too busy text messaging to realize that she's about to run a stop sign and t-bone a valuable, irreplacable collectible.

My choices were, spending 20k building a clone that I can drive every day if I wanted and insure it for about $40 a month or put up the house and the life savings and buy a real Daytona.

I love my clones. 

[tan top]

I can't help it of there were less than 500 real Daytonas built and I didn't end up with one of them. 

My clone takes nothing away from the real Daytonas and is intended to be a tribute, not a replacement. I think that many of the owners of real Daytonas wouldn't mind having an exact duplicate clone of their car to go out and terrorize the streets with. Saves the possiblilty of having that little bubble brained blonde that's too busy text messaging to realize that she's about to run a stop sign and t-bone a valuable, irreplacable collectible.

My choices were, spending 20k building a clone that I can drive every day if I wanted and insure it for about $40 a month or put up the house and the life savings and buy a real Daytona.

I love my clones. 

true

[nascarxx29]

There is nothing wrong with a daytona clone or any other clone .I had a clone daytona  before the real one came available.It doesnt take away from the real ones .If its not being sold as the real daytona.Nowbody is getting hurt

[chargerkid01]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

[Aero426]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when clone owners get beat up for keeping their fellow man down.   

[hotrod98]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

Don't know how you came up with that conclusion.
I don't think that a few guys cloning a few Chargers is going to affect the market much.

[Troy]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

Don't know how you came up with that conclusion.
I don't think that a few guys cloning a few Chargers is going to affect the market much.

No kidding. Adding badges doesn't make a car worth more. Adding a more powerful engine, suspension, brakes, and maybe more options usually does whether it's a true "clone" or not. I don't believe there are enough Daytona clones to make a dent in the overal project car market.

Troy

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Allen,

I'm sorry to hear that you're contemplating a change in your plans.  If Rick is still inclined to pass on the block, I personally liked the thought of the engine being back in another Charger 500 - especially one that close in VIN.  A couple years back I purchased the transmission from another St. Louis-built '69 HemiCharger built the same month as my R/T.  Even though it is no "better" than the non-numbers-matching transmission it currently has, I felt it was neat to have one that "close".  Same goes for my Daytona's engine block.  I searched for YEARS to find a good E440 HP block with correct dates, and finally found what I was looking for - and it has an unstamped VIN pad to boot.  That would be one of the easiest re-stamps in the world to make, as it would be the first time the pad was ever stamped (no machining necessary and no evidence of a prior VIN detectable in the crystallization pattern of the metal).  One of the reasons I've posted several pictures of the block and mentioned this point several times, is so that the car's history will be known publicly.  No future owner (hope there's not one for a loooong time) will be able to restamp the block without risk of being called out as a fraud.  Non-numbers-matching cars like yours and mine are still non-numbers-matching cars even with "close" engines or transmissions.  I'm of the same opinion, that having something "close" - when available - is better than any other option.  Hope you reconsider and keep Rick's block on your shopping list if he's still taking a pass.

Thanks Gene, deciding to finally pass on the engine was a tough one.  I still think it would be a great 2nd home for the engine, and maybe eventually lead to the engine returning to its original home.  Also, at a minimum it would have guaranteed that the engine was not "lost" again, or being put at risk by excessive flogging at a dragstrip.  In addition to the reasons that you posted, there were other considerations like I mentioned above.  I too was going to do it openly, with no attempt to deceive anyone.

Several of the folks that contacted me to ask that I give Rick more time are great guys, and I believe are well intentioned... but the end result could be much worse than ever anticipated.  I hope things turn out well, and that the engine is eventually reunited with Rick's C500.

Based on the last year-plus long drama, I reluctantly have to believe that my buying it would lead to a long series of discussions, some friendly & some not.  Also, probably a whole bunch of trade proposals... ya know like a 361 short block and used lawn mower, 1961 Seneca body, etc.  When the car eventually changes hands, I am sure the new owner would want the engine... just like I would in his shoes.

Thanks again Gene, we will see what happens...

BTW, check your PM inbox for a message I forwarded.  

Allen

[69bronzeT5]

but no one is going out of their way to clone 340 Dusters.

I'm putting 340 stripes on my 318 Duster

[aussiemuscle]

You might be interested to know in Australia, not only is it illegal to Sell id tags, if a rebody is found to be misrepresented, it goes back to the person who did it. Also they are liable for any increase in value caused by the misrepresentation.

think of the differnece from a base model charger to a hemi daytona! Even if the car has been sold 5 times or it's
been 10 years, it still goes back to the one that created the misrepresentation, so they are up for the value differences.

[hemigeno]

Thanks Gene, deciding to finally pass on the engine was a tough one.  I still think it would be a great 2nd home for the engine, and maybe eventually lead to the engine returning to its original home.  Also, at a minimum it would have guaranteed that the engine was not "lost" again, or being put at risk by excessive flogging at a dragstrip.  In addition to the reasons that you posted, there were other considerations like I mentioned above.  I too was going to do it openly, with no attempt to deceive anyone.

Several of the folks that contacted me to ask that I give Rick more time are great guys, and I believe are well intentioned... but the end result could be much worse than ever anticipated.  I hope things turn out well, and that the engine is eventually reunited with Rick's C500.

Based on the last year-plus long drama, I reluctantly have to believe that my buying it would lead to a long series of discussions, some friendly & some not.  Also, probably a whole bunch of trade proposals... ya know like a 361 short block and used lawn mower, 1961 Seneca body, etc.  When the car eventually changes hands, I am sure the new owner would want the engine... just like I would in his shoes.

Thanks again Gene, we will see what happens...

BTW, check your PM inbox for a message I forwarded.  

Allen

Sadly, I understand your logic perfectly - and you're almost certainly correct in the predictions of what might happen if you picked it up.  You'd become the "bad guy" (not necessarily with the Edwards's) despite any true and logical explanations to the contrary.

While I'm ultimately rooting for Rick's car to be reunited with the engine, something tells me that the seller isn't going to admit his mistake and take any sort of loss.  The auction will probably turn up every 90 days (cheap eBay re-list fees that way), so we can all pick up the discussion then.   

[chargerkid01]

I couldn't think of a good reason to defend my first statement leave me alone

[moparstuart]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when clone owners get beat up for keeping their fellow man down.   

those hard core 70 charger guys, yell at us all the time for making there good fenders and hoods dry up   

[hotrod98]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when clone owners get beat up for keeping their fellow man down.   

those hard core 70 charger guys, yell at us all the time for making there good fenders and hoods dry up   

Now if they had just traded their '70 front clips for our '69 front clips in the first place then there wouldn't have been any problems. 

[moparstuart]

I'll tell you what it does take away from though, all of us younger guys trying to get ahold of a regular charger and not pay out the a$$ for one that isn't even real to the badges it wears!!! It is like being pulled in 2 directions.

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when clone owners get beat up for keeping their fellow man down.   

those hard core 70 charger guys, yell at us all the time for making there good fenders and hoods dry up   

Now if they had just traded their '70 front clips for our '69 front clips in the first place then there wouldn't have been any problems. 

yeah i have a nice 69 front clip that will be up for sale